Billions worth of equipment to be left in the Stan
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Interesting and informative thread this one. I have actually learnt one or two things.
I see NO reason for this to end up in the normal prune hate mail, so let's keep it civil. Its hardly worth getting ones knickers in a knot over this.
I see NO reason for this to end up in the normal prune hate mail, so let's keep it civil. Its hardly worth getting ones knickers in a knot over this.
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Just think of the amount if fuel left in those 12000 vehicles.
At the end of the War, Paul Mantz bought a load of surplus US Aircraft realising there would be a use for them in the American film industry, at one point he had amassed so many Aircraft, ( 475 bombers and fighters ) that it was said he had the Worlds sixth largest Airforce, this cost him $55,000, but when the USAAF delivered them, he sold the fuel remaining in the aircraft making a profit on the original investment of $55,000. He then retained 12 aircraft for film use and sold the remaining 463 for scrap which again was a handsome profit.
Indeed more on that from here
Airport Journals
At the end of the War, Paul Mantz bought a load of surplus US Aircraft realising there would be a use for them in the American film industry, at one point he had amassed so many Aircraft, ( 475 bombers and fighters ) that it was said he had the Worlds sixth largest Airforce, this cost him $55,000, but when the USAAF delivered them, he sold the fuel remaining in the aircraft making a profit on the original investment of $55,000. He then retained 12 aircraft for film use and sold the remaining 463 for scrap which again was a handsome profit.
Indeed more on that from here
Airport Journals
Following the war, Paul Mantz Air Service handled tasks including flying daily film rushes into Hollywood from distant locations. In 1946, he invested $55,000 in 475 surplus bombers and fighters, much to the amusement of his friends. At the time, it was the world's sixth largest air force. The fleet of surplus had cost the American taxpayers $117,000,000.
Mantz ended up bringing a dozen of the best ships to Burbank. His partners in the deal disposed of the rest of the fleet for scrap. First, however, they drained the fuel tanks; the fuel alone sold for more than he had paid for the entire fleet. Then, Mantz netted $160,000 worth of scrap aluminum, $100,000 worth of Plexiglas, more than 1,000 good engines, and a warehouse full of 6004-A oxygen regulators that an embarrassed U.S. government bought back, at $75 each, for their own postwar airplane fleet.
Mantz ended up bringing a dozen of the best ships to Burbank. His partners in the deal disposed of the rest of the fleet for scrap. First, however, they drained the fuel tanks; the fuel alone sold for more than he had paid for the entire fleet. Then, Mantz netted $160,000 worth of scrap aluminum, $100,000 worth of Plexiglas, more than 1,000 good engines, and a warehouse full of 6004-A oxygen regulators that an embarrassed U.S. government bought back, at $75 each, for their own postwar airplane fleet.
Last edited by NutLoose; 13th May 2012 at 10:31.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Nut, there was a similar case in UK. I could make a guess at the entrepreneur but:
He went to a war surplus auction and bought a truck. I might have been a Bedford 30cwt. When he went to collect it he was asked when he was going to remove them. He had bought 100!
Each truck had a covered tilt. He opened one and found a brand new motor bike inside. He was assured that this was part of the deal. He found a motor bike in each one.
From planning a simple one-man truck operation he became a fleet owner in one bound.
Such profligacy continued of course. We furnished our first home with solid oak furniture that Kinloss fed on to the local market at around £20 a throw. They were told to stop it and pass everything through the official sales at Stirling. One day, somewhere in Forres, we saw single oak ended beds one pound each. That sorted a bedroom out too.
Not just the RAF. Boeing in the early '90s defurnished all their hirings in Lincoln and the stuff was sold knock down in a hangar sale at Waddo.
Who ever came up with Resource Accounting did the secondhand and surplus market a power of good. We even managed to buy a paint locker back from our local surplus store for £35 against the stores price of £495. Better, the MOD actually owned that £35 locker so the monet went from Strike to some other department where the administration fees probably ate it up anyway.
He went to a war surplus auction and bought a truck. I might have been a Bedford 30cwt. When he went to collect it he was asked when he was going to remove them. He had bought 100!
Each truck had a covered tilt. He opened one and found a brand new motor bike inside. He was assured that this was part of the deal. He found a motor bike in each one.
From planning a simple one-man truck operation he became a fleet owner in one bound.
Such profligacy continued of course. We furnished our first home with solid oak furniture that Kinloss fed on to the local market at around £20 a throw. They were told to stop it and pass everything through the official sales at Stirling. One day, somewhere in Forres, we saw single oak ended beds one pound each. That sorted a bedroom out too.
Not just the RAF. Boeing in the early '90s defurnished all their hirings in Lincoln and the stuff was sold knock down in a hangar sale at Waddo.
Who ever came up with Resource Accounting did the secondhand and surplus market a power of good. We even managed to buy a paint locker back from our local surplus store for £35 against the stores price of £495. Better, the MOD actually owned that £35 locker so the monet went from Strike to some other department where the administration fees probably ate it up anyway.
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Nutloose...........
Nice one matey!!
I know loads of pikies just let me know when the vehicles are available. Oops! too late.....the pikies from here have already left!!
No doubt they'll be selling lucky heather and clothes pegs on the way over!!
I know loads of pikies just let me know when the vehicles are available. Oops! too late.....the pikies from here have already left!!No doubt they'll be selling lucky heather and clothes pegs on the way over!!
Last edited by Dundiggin'; 13th May 2012 at 18:35.
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Equipment
I posted only what had been printed in the paper that day,one reply stated in was Journo rubbish, but it is pure fact as far as the number of vehicles goes.
The UK force out in Afghanistan has 1900 combat and protected vehicles out of a total force of 6000 for the whole of the British Army, and possibly thousands of utility and logistics vehicles and IMHO I don’t think one vehicle will be recovered. It is most likely no one on this forum including me knows just how much material is out in theatre and the consequence of the loss of that material on an Army that is already strapped for cash. As one poster has stated the country is land locked and there is no place to run.
There have been many valid reply’s including the ones about the cost effectiveness of recovery , and of course the tragic loss of our service personnel, but in the end materialistically it will be one of the biggest disaster the British Army has faced including WW2.
We can all come up with excuses about funding and it is no use back in the UK, but it is disaster coupled with the loss of all the logistic and other vehicles, plus god knows how much in spares and tools that will simply be abandoned. It realy does sound like some Victory or not.
The lives of our personnel is of course the most important factor in withdrawal and I am sure this will be sorted no problem, but the loss of Billions worth of equipment of all shapes and sizes that fiscally we may not be able to replace could leave the British Army in a very poor state.
The UK force out in Afghanistan has 1900 combat and protected vehicles out of a total force of 6000 for the whole of the British Army, and possibly thousands of utility and logistics vehicles and IMHO I don’t think one vehicle will be recovered. It is most likely no one on this forum including me knows just how much material is out in theatre and the consequence of the loss of that material on an Army that is already strapped for cash. As one poster has stated the country is land locked and there is no place to run.
There have been many valid reply’s including the ones about the cost effectiveness of recovery , and of course the tragic loss of our service personnel, but in the end materialistically it will be one of the biggest disaster the British Army has faced including WW2.
We can all come up with excuses about funding and it is no use back in the UK, but it is disaster coupled with the loss of all the logistic and other vehicles, plus god knows how much in spares and tools that will simply be abandoned. It realy does sound like some Victory or not.
The lives of our personnel is of course the most important factor in withdrawal and I am sure this will be sorted no problem, but the loss of Billions worth of equipment of all shapes and sizes that fiscally we may not be able to replace could leave the British Army in a very poor state.
Last edited by SCAFITE; 14th May 2012 at 08:16.
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Do you suppose we'll bury them secretly so in 70 years time anoraks will get terribly excited about digging up the hugely valuable historical treasures. Why doesn't the MoD sell futures in them?
Originally Posted by SCAFITE
The lives of our personnel is of course the most important factor in withdrawal and I am sure this will be sorted no problem, but the loss of Billions worth of equipment of all shapes and sizes that fiscally we may not be able to replace could leave the British Army in a very poor state.
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Equipment
None we have almost two years to recover what we can and if the armed forces logistic system cannot organise this we are in a poor state.
Dont get me wrong some equipment will be left behind, but we are talking of the wholsale abandoment of a huge slice of the Army Fighting and Logisitc capability.
How many flights will come back almost empty that could over the 2 year period start to recover and salvage some vehicles and parts that can be re-used.
An Army that abandons it equipment is on the run.
What of the Royal Air Force where my experiance was, it will now know there is an end game and a logistic withdrawl plan will be in place, and all major ground equipment, Tools, Spares will be on some blokes inventory and will be recovered if possible, it alway has been and always will. Until you get rid of all your RAF Suppliers, and hand your Supply network over to the Army, and it will end up the same old game of dumping equipment. The British Army has never changed
Dont get me wrong some equipment will be left behind, but we are talking of the wholsale abandoment of a huge slice of the Army Fighting and Logisitc capability.
How many flights will come back almost empty that could over the 2 year period start to recover and salvage some vehicles and parts that can be re-used.
An Army that abandons it equipment is on the run.
What of the Royal Air Force where my experiance was, it will now know there is an end game and a logistic withdrawl plan will be in place, and all major ground equipment, Tools, Spares will be on some blokes inventory and will be recovered if possible, it alway has been and always will. Until you get rid of all your RAF Suppliers, and hand your Supply network over to the Army, and it will end up the same old game of dumping equipment. The British Army has never changed
Last edited by SCAFITE; 14th May 2012 at 11:20.
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What of the Royal Air Force where my experiance was, it will now know there is an end game and a logistic withdrawl plan will be in place, and all major ground equipment, Tools, Spares will be on some blokes inventory and will be recovered if possible, it alway has been and always will. Until you get rid of all your RAF Suppliers, and hand your Supply network over to the Army, and it will end up the same old game of dumping equipment. The British Army has never changed
The longer we fly bits of land rover, wooden chocks and lifex kit out of theatre to be sold for buttons at surplus, the less valuable stuff will be brought out. The easiest, simplest way of doing this if there was the will to withdraw kit would be to cut a deal with the talibs to allow a big long convoy out of the place in a one-er. It seems there is no will to do this, possibly due to reasons speculated above, so I imagine the kit will be staying put.
Last edited by VinRouge; 14th May 2012 at 12:49.
cut a deal with the talibs to allow a big long convoy out of the place in a one-er
One, with his horse, made it.
Last edited by Fareastdriver; 14th May 2012 at 13:08.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Scafite, I see what you are driving at and FED is not quite right (or wrong).
When we left the Canal Zone I believe the Army abandoned a lot of WW2 stored stock for much of the reasons stated above. The RAF OTOH recovered a Hastings C1 that was fairly modern but had been declared Cat 5. That aircraft later saw service as a T5.
Remember, when we left Aden and the Canal Zone these were both potentially opposed departures and a lot of equipment had to be abandoned for various reasons.
In the case of Afg we are there by invitation and will be departing leaving a friendly Government in power. Equipment left behind is therefore being turned over to a friendly country.
and if you believe that last paragraph
When we left the Canal Zone I believe the Army abandoned a lot of WW2 stored stock for much of the reasons stated above. The RAF OTOH recovered a Hastings C1 that was fairly modern but had been declared Cat 5. That aircraft later saw service as a T5.
Remember, when we left Aden and the Canal Zone these were both potentially opposed departures and a lot of equipment had to be abandoned for various reasons.
In the case of Afg we are there by invitation and will be departing leaving a friendly Government in power. Equipment left behind is therefore being turned over to a friendly country.
and if you believe that last paragraph
Pontius has the best angle on this, in terms of the support contracts potentially in store for somebody.
(If any of you want to weep about waste, see Gulf War 1991, and the mountains of stuff the US DoD left in Saudi and Kuwait, some of it buried, some simply abandoned).
But there's another way to look at these vehicles, which I'll call the three baskets:
This leaves the Army with least waste, a plus up to the spare parts account from previous fiscal years' money, and a few usable items "gifted" to help with the diplomatic angle. Also, the scrap/salvage may well come in handy for local forces as they apply their ingenuity to using industrial grade scrap/salvage.
(If any of you want to weep about waste, see Gulf War 1991, and the mountains of stuff the US DoD left in Saudi and Kuwait, some of it buried, some simply abandoned).
But there's another way to look at these vehicles, which I'll call the three baskets:
- One of a kind mods for Afgh only: Grant to friendly government, in as is condition. (See contracts above for a negotiated package)
- Stuff inop: strip for spare parts, fly the spare parts out, leave the carcases for scrap/salvage. Aviation analogue: Hangar Queen / Parts Locker
- Common equipment for Brit Army: Ship/fly a few cherry one's out, (after first cannibalizing from basket 2) or, treat as item 2, but only harvest for hard to get or critical parts. Leave the rest for the locals to deal with / use as they see fit.
This leaves the Army with least waste, a plus up to the spare parts account from previous fiscal years' money, and a few usable items "gifted" to help with the diplomatic angle. Also, the scrap/salvage may well come in handy for local forces as they apply their ingenuity to using industrial grade scrap/salvage.
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I don't give a rat's ar$e about the kit.
Just bring the boys & girls home asap.
That medieval cess-pit is not worth one drop of their blood.
The sooner we declare victory & make our exit, the sooner they can get on with the business of reverting to the ungovernable collection of fiefdoms that the region has always been. The Taliban and Pakistani SIS will assist them in this task.
HB
Just bring the boys & girls home asap.
That medieval cess-pit is not worth one drop of their blood.
The sooner we declare victory & make our exit, the sooner they can get on with the business of reverting to the ungovernable collection of fiefdoms that the region has always been. The Taliban and Pakistani SIS will assist them in this task.
HB
Last edited by Halton Brat; 14th May 2012 at 15:31.
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And another thing.
At least the guys in the Stan have done their best on the 2-way range to reduce the ammunition stocks in theatre.
Just imagine if Defence Secretary (2006) John Reid's hope that we would leave Afghanistan "without a shot being fired" had been fulfilled.
What to do with all the bullets?
HB
At least the guys in the Stan have done their best on the 2-way range to reduce the ammunition stocks in theatre.
Just imagine if Defence Secretary (2006) John Reid's hope that we would leave Afghanistan "without a shot being fired" had been fulfilled.
What to do with all the bullets?
HB