FAFPS 2015
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FAFPS
Bootscooter and Razorduck raise a very interesting topic here!
I have many burning questions and thoughts regarding the new pension scheme, but one in particular that is really concerning me.
This is the best way I can explain this scenario!
I believe that I am correct in thinking that if my ‘twin brother’ and I had joined the Service on the same day; both promoted through the ranks on the same day: then one of us transferred to AFPS 05; that when the FAFPS is implemented in 2015 the one who transferred to AFPS 05 having made the long term commitment would be discriminated against and financially worse off!
It would appear from the last update on FAFPS that it would have been prudent for me (like many others) to stay on AFPS 75 and not transfer to AFPS 05. I, like many other members of the armed forces made a massive commitment and dutifully transferred to AFPS 05. I am acutely aware of the financial climate ‘we’ all find ourselves in and ‘we all must share the burden’. Notwithstanding, if my calculations are correct it would appear that I like many others are going to be hit with a ‘double whammy’ simply because we committed to the Service. This cannot be morally acceptable and I really hope that I am wrong on this matter because if it is correct it is perverse!
I have many burning questions and thoughts regarding the new pension scheme, but one in particular that is really concerning me.
This is the best way I can explain this scenario!
I believe that I am correct in thinking that if my ‘twin brother’ and I had joined the Service on the same day; both promoted through the ranks on the same day: then one of us transferred to AFPS 05; that when the FAFPS is implemented in 2015 the one who transferred to AFPS 05 having made the long term commitment would be discriminated against and financially worse off!
It would appear from the last update on FAFPS that it would have been prudent for me (like many others) to stay on AFPS 75 and not transfer to AFPS 05. I, like many other members of the armed forces made a massive commitment and dutifully transferred to AFPS 05. I am acutely aware of the financial climate ‘we’ all find ourselves in and ‘we all must share the burden’. Notwithstanding, if my calculations are correct it would appear that I like many others are going to be hit with a ‘double whammy’ simply because we committed to the Service. This cannot be morally acceptable and I really hope that I am wrong on this matter because if it is correct it is perverse!
Join Date: Mar 2005
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Please - give us all a break!
Your commitment to the service is expressed through your commission, not your pension. It is actually the Armed Forces that made a massive commitment to you ...
Your transfer to AFPS05 was not dutiful - it will have made financial sense at the time, based on the assumptions you made about the likely length of your residual service.
I'm sorry for you that your assumptions appear to have been mistaken in light of a changing global environment - who could have seen that coming in 2005? However, I will be reserving the majority of my sympathy for those whose loss came as a result of mistaken assumptions made by others, such as all the trainee pilots made redundant last year because the tw&ts at Manning still can't accurately predict demand, after only about 50 years of trying.
The (as yet only hypothetical) losses of those who transferred to AFPS05 comes from having taken a punt on catching two in the bush rather than sticking with the bird in hand. Some on these forums would call that rather naive. Now trot along to join the very long queue of all the other people whose fortunes have suffered as a result of the destruction of our TACOS these last few years.
Your commitment to the service is expressed through your commission, not your pension. It is actually the Armed Forces that made a massive commitment to you ...
Your transfer to AFPS05 was not dutiful - it will have made financial sense at the time, based on the assumptions you made about the likely length of your residual service.
I'm sorry for you that your assumptions appear to have been mistaken in light of a changing global environment - who could have seen that coming in 2005? However, I will be reserving the majority of my sympathy for those whose loss came as a result of mistaken assumptions made by others, such as all the trainee pilots made redundant last year because the tw&ts at Manning still can't accurately predict demand, after only about 50 years of trying.
The (as yet only hypothetical) losses of those who transferred to AFPS05 comes from having taken a punt on catching two in the bush rather than sticking with the bird in hand. Some on these forums would call that rather naive. Now trot along to join the very long queue of all the other people whose fortunes have suffered as a result of the destruction of our TACOS these last few years.
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However, a number have been advised to challenge their OTT paperwork and a few are choosing to challenge their PAS offer as the 'remuneration package' has been significantly altered.
Mighty7
It has been confirmed from the FAFPS team that PAS pension supplements earned up to the changeover will be banked as part of your old pension. This is obviously still dependant on completing 5 years on PAS spine.
The big disapointment will be for those who only intended to do the 5 years PAS and then leave with a significantly increased IP and gratuity. Everything earned after the changeover date will be defered until payment iaw the new pension terms. which may not be payable for a long time, and may not include a gratuity.
At the moment, its costing the RAF Ł80k cash, plus an extra Ł20,000 gratuity and an extra Ł6000 per year on my pension payable anytime after the age of 43 to guarantee my services for 5 years. Even then the decision was a close run thing.
Gloat mode dissengaged.
Are you going to accept the same tie-in for the promise of an extra ~Ł5000 a year on your pension payable from the age of 60? You can do the maths if you like, but that package is worth about 100k at todays annuity rates. Or an extra Ł20k for each of those five years. They'd have paid you Ł13k pear year as a pension if you left!
Thats a big commitment from you with not a lot in return.
Of course, you might do it for the love of the job.
It has been confirmed from the FAFPS team that PAS pension supplements earned up to the changeover will be banked as part of your old pension. This is obviously still dependant on completing 5 years on PAS spine.
The big disapointment will be for those who only intended to do the 5 years PAS and then leave with a significantly increased IP and gratuity. Everything earned after the changeover date will be defered until payment iaw the new pension terms. which may not be payable for a long time, and may not include a gratuity.
At the moment, its costing the RAF Ł80k cash, plus an extra Ł20,000 gratuity and an extra Ł6000 per year on my pension payable anytime after the age of 43 to guarantee my services for 5 years. Even then the decision was a close run thing.
Gloat mode dissengaged.
Are you going to accept the same tie-in for the promise of an extra ~Ł5000 a year on your pension payable from the age of 60? You can do the maths if you like, but that package is worth about 100k at todays annuity rates. Or an extra Ł20k for each of those five years. They'd have paid you Ł13k pear year as a pension if you left!
Thats a big commitment from you with not a lot in return.
Of course, you might do it for the love of the job.
Last edited by Arty Fufkin; 3rd Apr 2012 at 14:15.
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Kind of makes you wonder what sweeteners will be put into the NEM to kep aircrew in. Lots of ads online for global recruitment, when the recovery comes, what is going to keep people in?
Join Date: Feb 2002
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Arty Fufkin,
I do not have access to DII in my present location.
Do you have any more specific detail on how that will work with PAS up to transfer date. i.e. Has there been a new DIN to cover PAS etc as was discussed by the FAFPS team? When I spoke to them a few weeks ago the team were not able to give me an answer on what would be accrued under reserved rights for PAS chaps who will not reach their 5 years ROS before transfer.
My 5 years ROS on PAS will only be completed 6 weeks after 01 Apr 15. My reading of your statement above is that I would get approx 4.8 years of PAS accumulations added to my 38/16 AFPS75 pension, but would that mean my pension would be based on final salary PAS (i.e. level 25) or would it be based on level 9 Flt Lt with a top up for the 4.8 years of PAS?
Any clarification that you can give as to who made the statement to you and how it will work will be greatly appreciated in my current unconnected location.
Thanks,
The English Passenger
I do not have access to DII in my present location.
Do you have any more specific detail on how that will work with PAS up to transfer date. i.e. Has there been a new DIN to cover PAS etc as was discussed by the FAFPS team? When I spoke to them a few weeks ago the team were not able to give me an answer on what would be accrued under reserved rights for PAS chaps who will not reach their 5 years ROS before transfer.
My 5 years ROS on PAS will only be completed 6 weeks after 01 Apr 15. My reading of your statement above is that I would get approx 4.8 years of PAS accumulations added to my 38/16 AFPS75 pension, but would that mean my pension would be based on final salary PAS (i.e. level 25) or would it be based on level 9 Flt Lt with a top up for the 4.8 years of PAS?
Any clarification that you can give as to who made the statement to you and how it will work will be greatly appreciated in my current unconnected location.
Thanks,
The English Passenger
The email I have a copy of says that in your case you will get 4.8 years of PA supplements.
Just to clarify, as I understand it, AFPS 75 is not a final salary scheme. If you leave at 55 your pension consists of a basic bit, the same as a blunty Flt lt who serves for the same number of years as you, plus so many years worth of PA spine supplements which ensures you get an enhanced pension for being a member of the master race.
In the case of the pension switch over, you get to bank the supplements you earned on AFPS 75, but you must still serve 5 years from going onto the spine.
I'm certainly not an expert, but I reckon in your case, with 4.8 years done, your banked pension will be almost identical to a mate who leaves the RAF today having done 5 years on the PA spine.
Given that Apr 15 is the earliest that the change will happen, I don't think you have much to worry about.
Just to clarify, as I understand it, AFPS 75 is not a final salary scheme. If you leave at 55 your pension consists of a basic bit, the same as a blunty Flt lt who serves for the same number of years as you, plus so many years worth of PA spine supplements which ensures you get an enhanced pension for being a member of the master race.
In the case of the pension switch over, you get to bank the supplements you earned on AFPS 75, but you must still serve 5 years from going onto the spine.
I'm certainly not an expert, but I reckon in your case, with 4.8 years done, your banked pension will be almost identical to a mate who leaves the RAF today having done 5 years on the PA spine.
Given that Apr 15 is the earliest that the change will happen, I don't think you have much to worry about.
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Thanks Arty, any chance of a copy of that e-mail you have via PM? If not coz it is on DII, PM me and I will give you my DII address if you would rather forward to that system.
I am not overly concerned yet as almost everyone I speak to that is connected to the FAFPS is fairly certain that it won't be ready for Apr 15, as that is stated as an aspiration date and is the earliest it will happen, not the set in stone date yet.
Also, anything I get from the 5 years on PAS pension wise will be a bonus.. I stayed for a specific reason and the FRI and the salary over the last few years has been better than some of my contemporaries who left the service and then were made redundant have been getting! So I guess I made the right choice for me regardless.
I am not overly concerned yet as almost everyone I speak to that is connected to the FAFPS is fairly certain that it won't be ready for Apr 15, as that is stated as an aspiration date and is the earliest it will happen, not the set in stone date yet.
Also, anything I get from the 5 years on PAS pension wise will be a bonus.. I stayed for a specific reason and the FRI and the salary over the last few years has been better than some of my contemporaries who left the service and then were made redundant have been getting! So I guess I made the right choice for me regardless.
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GreenieLynxPilot -
First of all, please do not assume that everyone on here (and everyone affected by these changes) holds a commission.
Secondly, those that opted for the 05 pension made no "assumptions" other than their future fitness to serve to age 55. The figures given on the pension calculator were sold as fact, so regardless of whether the individual would be better off or not that option was a "sign-post" of loyalty and an intension to serve to that age.
We all have sympathy with those that have been dealt with poorly, but just because a significant number of Aircrew In Training were stiffed it doesn't make Xiapete's suggested scenario any less deserving of sympathy or correction by our organisation.
Why is it always a "race to the bottom"?
First of all, please do not assume that everyone on here (and everyone affected by these changes) holds a commission.
Secondly, those that opted for the 05 pension made no "assumptions" other than their future fitness to serve to age 55. The figures given on the pension calculator were sold as fact, so regardless of whether the individual would be better off or not that option was a "sign-post" of loyalty and an intension to serve to that age.
We all have sympathy with those that have been dealt with poorly, but just because a significant number of Aircrew In Training were stiffed it doesn't make Xiapete's suggested scenario any less deserving of sympathy or correction by our organisation.
Why is it always a "race to the bottom"?
FAFPS and FTRS - a silver lining?
I've just found this little nugget in the Hutton Report regarding pension abatement...
So this could mean that those that have earned a pension and then retire from the Regulars to the Reserves may no longer attract abatement. 
Let's hope
LJ
Flexible retirement should be encouraged and abatement of pensions in its current form for those who return to work after drawing their pensions should be eliminated
Let's hope
LJ
Have yet to read the DIN fully, but when I asked the consultation team on Wednesday what those of us on PAS could expect, he could not be drawn. NOTHING has been decided. I'm on '75, with a year left to qualify for my 5 yr PAS get out. If they make me worse off, ill have to leave to start a second career, either flying or in the aviation related industry. A lot over concentrate on Career Average, but miss Revalue From the rest. It changes the indexing compounded to the pot each year under the new scheme. All they can say is that it'll still be good, just not 'as good'.
Could someone explain (In simple terms please) how the current pay freeze effects pension rates? I understand that whilst we are in a pay freeze my AFPS 75 pension rates have been frozen (Looking at tables at RAFComm for 2010 and 2011). Am I right in thinking though that pensions in payment have been uplifted by CPI 5% or so (If so where can I see these rates or are they not generic?). Will I ever see the increases being given to pensions in payment with regards to my future pension or am I losing out by 5% ish this year compared to a current pensioner OR am I missing something? (Most likely)
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The pension codes for those retiring this year are on the MOD website. They are worked out on spot rates on the pay scales for each rank (which is why everyone in the same rank leaving in the same year with the same length of service gets the same rate of pension) so, as there have been no pay rises for some time, they have not changed. This year's pay raise was limited to entry grades, so I doubt there will be a new pension code this year either.
Once a pension is in payment, it increases in line with the agreed inflation factor which, now, is the September rate of the Consumer Prices Index. That was 5.2% for September last year so that is the rate that will be applied this September. If you left last year, remember that the first year's increase is proportionate - so, if you left last April you will get the full amount, if you left in October you will get about half the increase and if you left at the end of March you will not get an increase in April.
The freeze in the pension codes is causing a 'pension trough'. This means that someone leaving in earlier years is getting more than someone leaving now because the pension in payment has risen by the inflation measure year on year while the pension codes have not. To find out more about pension troughs visit our website (Forces Pension Society - Fighting for the Forces and their Families) and read the FPS leaflet on the issue.
Once a pension is in payment, it increases in line with the agreed inflation factor which, now, is the September rate of the Consumer Prices Index. That was 5.2% for September last year so that is the rate that will be applied this September. If you left last year, remember that the first year's increase is proportionate - so, if you left last April you will get the full amount, if you left in October you will get about half the increase and if you left at the end of March you will not get an increase in April.
The freeze in the pension codes is causing a 'pension trough'. This means that someone leaving in earlier years is getting more than someone leaving now because the pension in payment has risen by the inflation measure year on year while the pension codes have not. To find out more about pension troughs visit our website (Forces Pension Society - Fighting for the Forces and their Families) and read the FPS leaflet on the issue.
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Telegraph this morning - I'm assuming this is the new post 2015 model?
Armed Forces must wait five years longer for pension - Telegraph
Armed Forces must wait five years longer for pension - Telegraph
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Yep, although hoping those of us with large accruals up to 2015 will get our representative IPP at 38/22.
What is interesting is the increase in IPP isn't as bad as I was expecting, which makes me wonder what they are planning for flying pay and lump sum gratuities post 2015.
What is interesting is the increase in IPP isn't as bad as I was expecting, which makes me wonder what they are planning for flying pay and lump sum gratuities post 2015.
Last edited by VinRouge; 19th Jun 2012 at 06:44.
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Leon,
You're right. That stealth para could form quite a bit of new thinking.
You're right. That stealth para could form quite a bit of new thinking.
The Press Association: Pension plans white paper delayed
The Government has delayed publishing its plans for a single flat-rate state pension. Yet more uncertainty.