Rafale wins Indian order
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: The Green
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I stand by to be corrected but :
- Isn't Turkey participating in JSF?
- As well as UK?
Aren't both these countries, despite all their operationnal imperatives, having to wait for JSF to fill a capability gap?
When I said "mighty" it was to charcterise a 5th gen fighter...nothing more.
On wether the quote comes from a civvy or a military, I'll let you bet on that...
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: FR
Posts: 477
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I didn't mean to be so, Sir, sorry if I let you think otherwise. Please take my answer for what it says explicitely, no more: I'm french, so english isn't my mothertongue.
And no, I'm not involved with any of the contenders.
As you know, the swiss report is in fact 2 reports: one for the aircrafts as they were tested in 2008, and one for the aircrafts as they should be in 2015 (as seen in 2009).
I didn't heard any news in the last years suggesting that the roadmaps for any of the 3 contenders were anywere but more or less on shedule (*). I guess then that the 2009 analysis is still more or less relevant.
That's all.
(*) I don't pretend I know all, far from that, on those topics, but have no recollection of any major breakthrough or delay.
Agreed for other countries, but I'm not so sure that India would have been willing to wait:
- the MMRCA contest was already a bit late
- India will have the PAK-FA for 5th gen fighter
And no, I'm not involved with any of the contenders.
As you know, the swiss report is in fact 2 reports: one for the aircrafts as they were tested in 2008, and one for the aircrafts as they should be in 2015 (as seen in 2009).
I didn't heard any news in the last years suggesting that the roadmaps for any of the 3 contenders were anywere but more or less on shedule (*). I guess then that the 2009 analysis is still more or less relevant.
That's all.
(*) I don't pretend I know all, far from that, on those topics, but have no recollection of any major breakthrough or delay.
- the MMRCA contest was already a bit late
- India will have the PAK-FA for 5th gen fighter
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Racedo blows goats
Posts: 677
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AZR No problem, your English is very good. In my experience, if a programme is not on schedule the producer rarely shouts about it.
At the time of testing, Gripen had been about a while, Typhoon was just entering service with an Initial Operating Capability for Air to Air only and Rafale had been in service for 2 years. I am not surprised the Swiss reached the conclusion they did. The technological look forward is always influenced by the risk of achieving it and as technologies mature the risk reduces. I suspect if they tested again today there might be a completely different set of conclusions.
Regarding the Indian buy, I believe that Rafale reached also preferred bidder stage for UAE before losing that contract. I have no doubt that India selected Rafale because it met their technical need at the best price. At this level its more than a competition between aircraft capabilities, there industrial and political trade offs etc that have to be delivered.
I think that all 3 aircraft are elegant designs and beautiful machines and dislike the nationalistic rock throwing that goes on.
At the time of testing, Gripen had been about a while, Typhoon was just entering service with an Initial Operating Capability for Air to Air only and Rafale had been in service for 2 years. I am not surprised the Swiss reached the conclusion they did. The technological look forward is always influenced by the risk of achieving it and as technologies mature the risk reduces. I suspect if they tested again today there might be a completely different set of conclusions.
Regarding the Indian buy, I believe that Rafale reached also preferred bidder stage for UAE before losing that contract. I have no doubt that India selected Rafale because it met their technical need at the best price. At this level its more than a competition between aircraft capabilities, there industrial and political trade offs etc that have to be delivered.
I think that all 3 aircraft are elegant designs and beautiful machines and dislike the nationalistic rock throwing that goes on.
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Banished (twice) to the pointless forest
Posts: 1,558
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's another world, not just another continent!
Despite millions in international aid and a huge Space & Defence budget, they don't even have Khazis!
How can British Industry be desperate to do business with people like this?
What has the Empire become?
Seems that, just like the French, the Indians are partial to pissing in the street.
How can British Industry be desperate to do business with people like this?
What has the Empire become?
India woman leaves home for lack of toilet
Anita Narre refused to go to her husband's home until he built a toilet
A newlywed woman in a village in the Indian state of Madhya Pradesh has won her struggle to have a toilet at her husband's home.
Anita Narre left husband Shivram's home two days after her marriage in May last year because the house had no toilet.
She returned eight days later after Shivram, a daily wage worker, built one with savings and aid from villagers.
An NGO announced a $10,000 reward for Mrs Narre for her "brave" decision and forcing her husband to build a toilet.
More than half-a-billion Indians still lack access to basic sanitation.
The problem is acute in rural India and it is the women who suffer most.
Shivram said he was not able to build a toilet at home because of lack of money.
He admitted that his wife returned home only after he constructed one with his savings and "some support from the village council".
"It is not nice for women to go outside to defecate. That's why every home should have a toilet. Those who don't should make sure there is one," Mrs Narre told the BBC.
Many people in India do not have access to flush toilets or other latrines.
But under new local laws in states including Chhattisgarh, people's representatives are obliged to construct a flush toilet in their own home within a year of being elected. Those who fail to do so face dismissal.
The law making toilets mandatory has been introduced in several states as part of the "sanitation for all" drive by the Indian government.
The programme aims to eradicate the practice of open defecation, which is common in rural and poor urban areas of India.
Special funds are made available for people to construct toilets to promote hygiene and eradicate the practice of faeces collection - or scavenging - which is mainly carried out by low-caste people.
Anita Narre refused to go to her husband's home until he built a toilet
A newlywed woman in a village in the Indian state of Madhya Pradesh has won her struggle to have a toilet at her husband's home.
Anita Narre left husband Shivram's home two days after her marriage in May last year because the house had no toilet.
She returned eight days later after Shivram, a daily wage worker, built one with savings and aid from villagers.
An NGO announced a $10,000 reward for Mrs Narre for her "brave" decision and forcing her husband to build a toilet.
More than half-a-billion Indians still lack access to basic sanitation.
The problem is acute in rural India and it is the women who suffer most.
Shivram said he was not able to build a toilet at home because of lack of money.
He admitted that his wife returned home only after he constructed one with his savings and "some support from the village council".
"It is not nice for women to go outside to defecate. That's why every home should have a toilet. Those who don't should make sure there is one," Mrs Narre told the BBC.
Many people in India do not have access to flush toilets or other latrines.
But under new local laws in states including Chhattisgarh, people's representatives are obliged to construct a flush toilet in their own home within a year of being elected. Those who fail to do so face dismissal.
The law making toilets mandatory has been introduced in several states as part of the "sanitation for all" drive by the Indian government.
The programme aims to eradicate the practice of open defecation, which is common in rural and poor urban areas of India.
Special funds are made available for people to construct toilets to promote hygiene and eradicate the practice of faeces collection - or scavenging - which is mainly carried out by low-caste people.
Seems that, just like the French, the Indians are partial to pissing in the street.
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Qatar
Age: 68
Posts: 181
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by airpolice
Seems that, just like the French, the Indians are partial to pissing in the street
Now regarding the somewhat desperate attemps of both BAE and UK Gvt to come back in the deal : I can understand the Brits are trying to save their product, but tell me - regarding that lost deal in India, have you heard any comment about the subject from Germany, Spain, Italy (the other nations building the Typhoon) ? The answer is No - simply because they don't care. And that's a big weakness of the Typhoon program.
Originally Posted by Crazygrog
I stand by to be corrected but :
Originally Posted by Crazygrog
- Isn't Turkey participating in JSF?
- As well as UK?
- As well as UK?
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Racedo blows goats
Posts: 677
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How bizarre. A leaked report that has Rafale 1st, Typhoon 2nd and Gripen 3rd and the Swiss buy Gripen:
Swiss Go For Gripen NG | aviationintel
Swiss Go For Gripen NG | aviationintel
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Engineer (retard).
The same report was reporteded on in Ares. The following comments were posted by "tangoviking", who wrote:
The same report was reporteded on in Ares. The following comments were posted by "tangoviking", who wrote:
You're missing the whole key issue in the selection. And it's written in that document.
Look ! http://i.imgur.com/JrlYL.jpg
The evaluation ranks Gripen second best choice IF the budget can afford to buy 22 Rafale.
22 Rafale's were not possible within the later established acquisition and operative budget so the decision was to go with 22 Gripen as the best choice for the airforce and the offered configuration will be suitable as so written in the document.
Same General who signed the evaluation supports the Gripen selection.
Adding sources:
---
The flight performance of the aircraft are less good than the Rafale and the Eurofighter. Markus Gygax recognizes this fact. But, he adds, it is not now the most crucial aspect because there are other criteria. "It's like when you buy a car, says Markus Gygax. You do not just look how fast the car can reach, but also and perhaps especially its ease of maintenance. And the Gripen aircraft is clear that maintenance costs the most advantageous. We are convinced by our choice. "
Le Gripen défendu par le chef des forces aériennes - tsr.ch - info - revue de presse
In November last year, Air Force chief Major General Markus explains: "I have reported to the Federal Council that all evaluated types meet our requirements." (NZZ 19th 11th 11)
Look ! http://i.imgur.com/JrlYL.jpg
The evaluation ranks Gripen second best choice IF the budget can afford to buy 22 Rafale.
22 Rafale's were not possible within the later established acquisition and operative budget so the decision was to go with 22 Gripen as the best choice for the airforce and the offered configuration will be suitable as so written in the document.
Same General who signed the evaluation supports the Gripen selection.
Adding sources:
---
The flight performance of the aircraft are less good than the Rafale and the Eurofighter. Markus Gygax recognizes this fact. But, he adds, it is not now the most crucial aspect because there are other criteria. "It's like when you buy a car, says Markus Gygax. You do not just look how fast the car can reach, but also and perhaps especially its ease of maintenance. And the Gripen aircraft is clear that maintenance costs the most advantageous. We are convinced by our choice. "
Le Gripen défendu par le chef des forces aériennes - tsr.ch - info - revue de presse
In November last year, Air Force chief Major General Markus explains: "I have reported to the Federal Council that all evaluated types meet our requirements." (NZZ 19th 11th 11)
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Racedo blows goats
Posts: 677
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks Orac. I can also see a similar vein in the Indian selection because Rafale and the Indian Mirage 2000 upgrade share many components, the life cycle costs are lower.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,136
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Genuine question. Where does the under current of loyalty to Typhoon come from?
Reading this thread one encounters the main theme that Johnny Foreigner has done the unthinkable and bought French when there was a bit of British kit available.
I find this utterly perplexing. The Typhoon is used by the RAF but it's about as British as Queen Victoria.
I hate to say it (because despite 'everything' I actually want the RAF to have decent kit) but the system is still nowhere near its own sales pitch as regards multi or swing role and yet the plucky French with their Gallic shrugs and 'fark it we'll make our own' attitude have a similar product that can throw Mica, GBU-12, A2SM etc around with gay abandon and do it from a CVN.
If the Typhoon were a solely British design, made solely in Britain and the Indian bid had been British I would tend to have a degree of loyalty to both the system and this individual sale. But as far as i can tell - it isn't, it isn't, it wasn't, I don't and I don't.
As always - just my opinion.
Reading this thread one encounters the main theme that Johnny Foreigner has done the unthinkable and bought French when there was a bit of British kit available.
I find this utterly perplexing. The Typhoon is used by the RAF but it's about as British as Queen Victoria.
I hate to say it (because despite 'everything' I actually want the RAF to have decent kit) but the system is still nowhere near its own sales pitch as regards multi or swing role and yet the plucky French with their Gallic shrugs and 'fark it we'll make our own' attitude have a similar product that can throw Mica, GBU-12, A2SM etc around with gay abandon and do it from a CVN.
If the Typhoon were a solely British design, made solely in Britain and the Indian bid had been British I would tend to have a degree of loyalty to both the system and this individual sale. But as far as i can tell - it isn't, it isn't, it wasn't, I don't and I don't.
As always - just my opinion.
Rafale for India - illegally subsidised, asks a French paper?
There have been whispers that EU competition authorities have been looking into MMRCA.
And now this:
"Rafale to India at bargain prices
France has proposed to India to sell its Rafale at bargain prices, writes the French magazine Le Canard Enchainé.
Always very well informed about the background of French politics scenario, the newspaper said India has recently chosen to launch 'exclusive negotiations' for the purchase of 126 Rafale made by the French group Dassault Aviation but that the aircraft had been chosen because of the extraordinary 'discount' offered by Paris.
For France - The Canard said, citing data from the French Court of Auditors - Rafale cost "some 150 million Euro." While to the Indians a proposal was made at "80 to 87 million Euro". "A huge difference in price," commented Le Canard, questioning the reasons for this discount:
"Either Rafale is sold at an inflated price for the French, or this is dumping, special discount under cost" states the magazine. Rafale has been offered at a much higher price to the United Arab which is interested in 60 aircraft. Now UAE could ask for an explanation as to why Rafale has been offered at a much higher price than to India?
A similar "game" has been played by the French in Brazil, where the aircraft has been offered at around 100 million each.
The real question raised by the article is if Rafale costs around 142 million Euro each for France, how can Dassault offer the aircraft to India for only 80-87 millions Euro? Who pays the difference in cost? The French taxpayer? Or maybe other Arab countries, interested in Rafale, will be financing the discount offered by the French to the Indians?"
Of course Rafale doesn't cost €142 m (unless you count R&D and other 'whole programme' costs) so the subsidy isn't as large as this report indicates. But figures from France’s Assemblee Nationale and the ‘Cour des Comptes’ (the French NAO) that indicate a programme unit cost of €142.3 m ($188.68 m) for Rafale, also give a unit production cost of €101.1 m ($134 m). You'd expect the export price to be at around this level, perhaps with a small profit margin and perhaps an export levy. Lower than this and it does look as though there has been a subsidy.
Still, what cost getting your first export order?
And now this:
"Rafale to India at bargain prices
France has proposed to India to sell its Rafale at bargain prices, writes the French magazine Le Canard Enchainé.
Always very well informed about the background of French politics scenario, the newspaper said India has recently chosen to launch 'exclusive negotiations' for the purchase of 126 Rafale made by the French group Dassault Aviation but that the aircraft had been chosen because of the extraordinary 'discount' offered by Paris.
For France - The Canard said, citing data from the French Court of Auditors - Rafale cost "some 150 million Euro." While to the Indians a proposal was made at "80 to 87 million Euro". "A huge difference in price," commented Le Canard, questioning the reasons for this discount:
"Either Rafale is sold at an inflated price for the French, or this is dumping, special discount under cost" states the magazine. Rafale has been offered at a much higher price to the United Arab which is interested in 60 aircraft. Now UAE could ask for an explanation as to why Rafale has been offered at a much higher price than to India?
A similar "game" has been played by the French in Brazil, where the aircraft has been offered at around 100 million each.
The real question raised by the article is if Rafale costs around 142 million Euro each for France, how can Dassault offer the aircraft to India for only 80-87 millions Euro? Who pays the difference in cost? The French taxpayer? Or maybe other Arab countries, interested in Rafale, will be financing the discount offered by the French to the Indians?"
Of course Rafale doesn't cost €142 m (unless you count R&D and other 'whole programme' costs) so the subsidy isn't as large as this report indicates. But figures from France’s Assemblee Nationale and the ‘Cour des Comptes’ (the French NAO) that indicate a programme unit cost of €142.3 m ($188.68 m) for Rafale, also give a unit production cost of €101.1 m ($134 m). You'd expect the export price to be at around this level, perhaps with a small profit margin and perhaps an export levy. Lower than this and it does look as though there has been a subsidy.
Still, what cost getting your first export order?
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: The Green
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Comes from Ze Monde:
Paris et Londres envisagent un avion de combat commun pour 2020 - LeMonde.fr
For those who are a bit rusty on le langage de l'élégance, it basically says that brits and french are planning to develop a joint UCAV by 2020...
Here comes the Rafafighter....
Paris et Londres envisagent un avion de combat commun pour 2020 - LeMonde.fr
For those who are a bit rusty on le langage de l'élégance, it basically says that brits and french are planning to develop a joint UCAV by 2020...
Here comes the Rafafighter....
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: by the Great Salt Lake, USA
Posts: 1,542
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It all depends on how the Dassault-India contract is worded.
I have read that Sukhoi's contract with India for Su-27/33 forbids India from making spare/replacement parts. All spares must be purchased from Russia at whatever price Russia demands.
It is a commonly-accepted tale that the military contracts for complex equipment that produce the most profit for the manufacturers feature low initial purchase costs and long-term maintenance/support/supply contracts with undefined costs, allowing for increases in prices for parts & maintenance/support work.
Many nations have gotten wise to this, and demand "all-inclusive" contracts that set a fixed cost for parts & support per year (or a fixed total for a certain number of years).
India apparently still hasn't learned to hold out for this type of contract.
I have read that Sukhoi's contract with India for Su-27/33 forbids India from making spare/replacement parts. All spares must be purchased from Russia at whatever price Russia demands.
It is a commonly-accepted tale that the military contracts for complex equipment that produce the most profit for the manufacturers feature low initial purchase costs and long-term maintenance/support/supply contracts with undefined costs, allowing for increases in prices for parts & maintenance/support work.
Many nations have gotten wise to this, and demand "all-inclusive" contracts that set a fixed cost for parts & support per year (or a fixed total for a certain number of years).
India apparently still hasn't learned to hold out for this type of contract.
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Qatar
Age: 68
Posts: 181
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Because for you GreenKnight121, in the Rafale contract, the Indians are obviously the losers and the suckers, after having eventually settled their mind in favor of the French, thus discarding some of the most beautiful products of the US industry.... yes, I know, it's difficult to swallow, but you will get used to it.
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Hertfordshire
Age: 74
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re Orca's question about British sour-grapes. Aside from the rumbling discontent over the issue of UK aid, I think the disappointment of India's Rafale selection may also be at least partly the dashed hope that another large Eurofighter operator might have improved or accelerated the development prospects for the aircraft, developments which could then be incorporated into RAF planes.
I accept this introduces an element of the 'concurrency' debate which has raged around the F35 recently, but not to the same degree I think. Some have commented that the EF is less developed than the Rafale, so making Rafale the logical choice because it has been 'de-risked'. This does not appear to have hindered F35 significantly, despite virtually everything, from performance to price through combat capable date, still being steeped in risk and uncertainty. New customers are signing up for its promise rather than pedigree. Given it's chequered development history so far, I find this remarkable.
But back to India's choice: If Rafale meets the specification and is 20%+ cheaper than EF, that's an easy decision for a buyer to make. Unless Dassault makes a mess of the final negotiations again, I don't see any way back for the Eurofighter. As a buyer I would be suspicious of a supplier who can now reduce their price when they couldn't do so before; and as a seller the price may have to drop significantly below Rafale to win the deal, which could mean you risk not being able to deliver what you promise if margins are too thin.
I accept this introduces an element of the 'concurrency' debate which has raged around the F35 recently, but not to the same degree I think. Some have commented that the EF is less developed than the Rafale, so making Rafale the logical choice because it has been 'de-risked'. This does not appear to have hindered F35 significantly, despite virtually everything, from performance to price through combat capable date, still being steeped in risk and uncertainty. New customers are signing up for its promise rather than pedigree. Given it's chequered development history so far, I find this remarkable.
But back to India's choice: If Rafale meets the specification and is 20%+ cheaper than EF, that's an easy decision for a buyer to make. Unless Dassault makes a mess of the final negotiations again, I don't see any way back for the Eurofighter. As a buyer I would be suspicious of a supplier who can now reduce their price when they couldn't do so before; and as a seller the price may have to drop significantly below Rafale to win the deal, which could mean you risk not being able to deliver what you promise if margins are too thin.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: by the Great Salt Lake, USA
Posts: 1,542
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Reinhardt your opinion means nothing to me... but India's contract history speaks for itself.
I don't know exactly what is in this contract... but I do know what the Sukhoi contract said.
I personally think that Rafale was the best choice for India... IF the contract is a fair one for both India & France.
I don't know exactly what is in this contract... but I do know what the Sukhoi contract said.
I personally think that Rafale was the best choice for India... IF the contract is a fair one for both India & France.