Spitting on a Soldier's Grave
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I visited Dublin as part of a school rugby team in the early 80's - I believe that I watched a Triple crown winning team that Saturday. I was somewhat surprised to see a swastika adorned chimney in 'the middle' of Dublin - I dn;t think that there were any U-Boat crews, though.
Duncs
Duncs
Mmmmm.......Eamon De Valera went to personally commiserate with the Nazi representative in Eire, Dr Eduard Hempel on the death of their beloved Fuhrer in 1945 for gods sake when the war was nearly over. Not exactly a supportive thing to do for the Taoiseach was it ?
De Valera followed the protocols he felt correct for a neutal nation.
I visited Dublin as part of a school rugby team in the early 80's - I believe that I watched a Triple crown winning team that Saturday. I was somewhat surprised to see a swastika adorned chimney in 'the middle' of Dublin - I dn;t think that there were any U-Boat crews, though.
Duncs
Duncs
Swastika Laundry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Then again on google maps of Japan the Swastika is shown.....nowt to down with Nazism
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Racedo
It was a display of support that no other national leader on earth made. At the time it was defended as a diplomatic gesture (really ?) but was one that not even General Franco was insensitive enough to make or any other neutral nation. It was also 3 months after the hell of Auschwitz had been discovered and a few weeks after Belsen ! What a leader eh !
The Irish government were no friends of the British during WWII, no matter how some try to paint over it.
De Valera followed the protocols he felt correct for a neutal nation
The Irish government were no friends of the British during WWII, no matter how some try to paint over it.
It was a display of support that no other national leader on earth made. At the time it was defended as a diplomatic gesture (really ?) but was one that not even General Franco was insensitive enough to make or any other neutral nation. It was also 3 months after the hell of Auschwitz had been discovered and a few weeks after Belsen ! What a leader eh !
A leader of a nation wishes to maintain its full declaration of neutrality in both its deeds and words even when he didn't have to.
As for using Franco as an example
................he happily used Nazi airplanes on his own people and was more than happy to accept Allied cash post war even while exiling and still terrorising his own people.Irish maintained its neutrality even when Allied victory was assured and didn't jump on the bandwagon which is to their credit unlike quite a few others who did.
The Irish government were no friends of the British during WWII, no matter how some try to paint over it.
There is no such thing as friendship in International affairs just National Interests because if you think US supplied Britain with weapons prior to Dec 7th 1941 for friendship reason rather than for its own economic reasons I have a bridge to sell you.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
De valera was a, strange man, and of his generation. As with Maggie Thatcher we was divisive in the support he attracted.
As many would protest at Maggie being used to define their nation, so would many Irish.
As background, my parents were Irish ad moved to the UK in around 1948. Pre-war the photos of my father show him as a corporal in a naval service, I presume the Coastguard, during the war he was commissioned in the Army and guarded one of the POW camps.
We were never that close, and we never spoke of his time before he moved to the UK.
Things that are lost in time.......
As many would protest at Maggie being used to define their nation, so would many Irish.
As background, my parents were Irish ad moved to the UK in around 1948. Pre-war the photos of my father show him as a corporal in a naval service, I presume the Coastguard, during the war he was commissioned in the Army and guarded one of the POW camps.
We were never that close, and we never spoke of his time before he moved to the UK.
Things that are lost in time.......
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As for using Franco as an example
where was Sweden/Switzerlands condolences etc ? 
Ireland was that neutral that post war they gladly signed up to the Marshal Plan and put their hand out to the Americans offer of cash to help rebuild Europe
(something they are still particularly good at doing today 
)It is also telling that on the 26th January 2003 Irish Justice Minister Michael McDowell openly apologized for Irish wartime policy that was inspired by "a culture of muted antisemitism in Ireland,"
It is also funny that famous Poet/journalist/broadcaster Sir John Betjeman, while working in Dublin during the war stated with regard to the Irish people that they are: " either anti-British, pro Irish and pro-German, the Irish papers are all anti-British…and the best-selling writers are pro-German".
Let's face it, EIRE was lower than a snakes belly during WWII where the British were concerned.
I presume you have some link to EIRE Racedo that is maybe clouding any sort of objectivity
it's getting boring so I'm at my Bingo on this bye !
Spains neutrality is a little like the kings new clothes!!!!
From Hitlers Legions S.W Mitcham 1985
German 250th Infantry Division
Spanish volunteers 14,000 strong August 1941
8000 casualties turning back the Russian winter offensive 1941/42
Received further replacements from Spain
Further 3200 casualties 1943
1944 Franco requests division returns to Spain
Half of the troops transfer to the Waffen SS and fight to the end of the war.
Divisional comanders Major General Munoz Grandes and Emilo Esteban-Infantes
One mans neutral is another mans enemy!!!!!
Probably about 4 times the number of Irishmen who fought on the side of the Allies.
Given the fate of most of the foreigners fighting for Hitler on the eastern front it is unlikely
that many of those who stayed saw Spain again.
Valour in support of an unworthy cause, very sad.
From Hitlers Legions S.W Mitcham 1985
German 250th Infantry Division
Spanish volunteers 14,000 strong August 1941
8000 casualties turning back the Russian winter offensive 1941/42
Received further replacements from Spain
Further 3200 casualties 1943
1944 Franco requests division returns to Spain
Half of the troops transfer to the Waffen SS and fight to the end of the war.
Divisional comanders Major General Munoz Grandes and Emilo Esteban-Infantes
One mans neutral is another mans enemy!!!!!
Probably about 4 times the number of Irishmen who fought on the side of the Allies.
Given the fate of most of the foreigners fighting for Hitler on the eastern front it is unlikely
that many of those who stayed saw Spain again.
Valour in support of an unworthy cause, very sad.
Last edited by ericferret; 7th Jan 2012 at 22:34.
If you cannot see the point that Franco had the support of Hitler and Mussolini as well as receiving equipment etc against his people. Yet even that tyrant was not insensitive enough to offer condolences towards Hitler or the German people Only 1 leader in the WORLD did where was Sweden/Switzerlands condolences etc ?
Ireland was that neutral that post war they gladly signed up to the Marshal Plan and put their hand out to the Americans offer of cash to help rebuild Europe 
(something they are still particularly good at doing today 
)
It is also telling that on the 26th January 2003 Irish Justice Minister Michael McDowell openly apologized for Irish wartime policy that was inspired by "a culture of muted antisemitism in Ireland,"
It is also funny that famous Poet/journalist/broadcaster Sir John Betjeman, while working in Dublin during the war stated with regard to the Irish people that they are: " either anti-British, pro Irish and pro-German, the Irish papers are all anti-British…and the best-selling writers are pro-German".
Let's face it, EIRE was lower than a snakes belly during WWII where the British were concerned.
I presume you have some link to EIRE Racedo that is maybe clouding any sort of objectivity
it's getting boring so I'm at my Bingo on this bye !
where was Sweden/Switzerlands condolences etc ? Ireland was that neutral that post war they gladly signed up to the Marshal Plan and put their hand out to the Americans offer of cash to help rebuild Europe
(something they are still particularly good at doing today )It is also telling that on the 26th January 2003 Irish Justice Minister Michael McDowell openly apologized for Irish wartime policy that was inspired by "a culture of muted antisemitism in Ireland,"
It is also funny that famous Poet/journalist/broadcaster Sir John Betjeman, while working in Dublin during the war stated with regard to the Irish people that they are: " either anti-British, pro Irish and pro-German, the Irish papers are all anti-British…and the best-selling writers are pro-German".
Let's face it, EIRE was lower than a snakes belly during WWII where the British were concerned.
I presume you have some link to EIRE Racedo that is maybe clouding any sort of objectivity
it's getting boring so I'm at my Bingo on this bye !
If you had actually bothered to read up on the history of the period both readily available from both sides it would open your eyes but I see that not happening.
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What a good little vignette BA, thanks for posting.
In a peaceful glade, high in the Wicklow mountains south of Dublin, there is a small German war cemetery for those sailors & airmen who were not so fortunate.
As a 100% full-blooded, Guinness-swilling, ballad-singing (ex-RAF) Mick, I am hugely proud of Wing Commander Brendan 'Paddy' Finucane of Dublin. When he was shot down (by ground fire) in 1942, he was a 21yr-old Wg Cdr/OC Hornchurch Spitfire Wing, with 26 confirmed victories. I am sure that he would have become the top-scoring RAF ace of WW2, had he survived. His No1 uniform is on display at the RAF Museum, Hendon.
Erin go Bragh!
HB
In a peaceful glade, high in the Wicklow mountains south of Dublin, there is a small German war cemetery for those sailors & airmen who were not so fortunate.
As a 100% full-blooded, Guinness-swilling, ballad-singing (ex-RAF) Mick, I am hugely proud of Wing Commander Brendan 'Paddy' Finucane of Dublin. When he was shot down (by ground fire) in 1942, he was a 21yr-old Wg Cdr/OC Hornchurch Spitfire Wing, with 26 confirmed victories. I am sure that he would have become the top-scoring RAF ace of WW2, had he survived. His No1 uniform is on display at the RAF Museum, Hendon.
Erin go Bragh!
HB
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Have a look at this thread on Slugger O'Toole about this subject, not recommended for those with high blood pressure.
Ireland vindictive treatment of soldiers who ‘deserted’ peace for war… « Slugger O'Toole
Ireland vindictive treatment of soldiers who ‘deserted’ peace for war… « Slugger O'Toole
My Father was a guard at The Curragh which was the camp where combatants from both sides who found themselves in Ireland were incarcerated during the war. German forces (mainly Luftwaffe) and English (mainly RAF)were subject to parole conditions which allowed them to leave the camp during evening hours. These conditions were observed almost exclusively during the period.
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'neutral' Irish - oh yeah..........
...........and then the so call 'neutral' Irish Government allowed the 'U' boat crews to have R & R in their ports between murdering the atlantic convoys. 'Neutral' my @rse. Irish gits! 
...........and then the so call 'neutral' Irish Government allowed the 'U' boat crews to have R & R in their ports between murdering the atlantic convoys. 'Neutral' my @rse. Irish gits!
Backed up by not a single shred or fact.
An urban myth. Ireland was losing ships to the U Boats so I don't think the Kreigsmarine would have been very welcome.
A story regarding a brawl in a bar in Angra, the capital of Terceira Ialsnd in the Azores isn't a myth however. The Azores are Portuguese and tehnically Portugal was neutral in WW2, for the first couple of years at least. However, the British put pressure on them based on a 600 year old treaty and the Portugese allowed the RAF to establish an airbase at Lajes where anti submarine aircraft operated. Germans were still putting into the Azores for supplies, and one night, a group of RAF crew on a night out came across some Germans in a bar and a punch up ensued. The story has it that it was a U Boat crew, but as the U Boats didn't dock away from base, it was more likely to be a supply ship. The Germans were for a while resupplying the U Boats off the Azores and there is a large rock off the south coast of Terceira with a large split, which (as the story says) the Germans used to use as cover for the resupply operation.
A story regarding a brawl in a bar in Angra, the capital of Terceira Ialsnd in the Azores isn't a myth however. The Azores are Portuguese and tehnically Portugal was neutral in WW2, for the first couple of years at least. However, the British put pressure on them based on a 600 year old treaty and the Portugese allowed the RAF to establish an airbase at Lajes where anti submarine aircraft operated. Germans were still putting into the Azores for supplies, and one night, a group of RAF crew on a night out came across some Germans in a bar and a punch up ensued. The story has it that it was a U Boat crew, but as the U Boats didn't dock away from base, it was more likely to be a supply ship. The Germans were for a while resupplying the U Boats off the Azores and there is a large rock off the south coast of Terceira with a large split, which (as the story says) the Germans used to use as cover for the resupply operation.
In a statement indicating the Irish government's willingness to pardon the Irish "deserters", Irish Justice Minister Alan Shatter made the following remarks about Irish neutrality before and during WW2, with particular reference to its failure to assist Jews who were seeking refuge from Nazi Germany.
“In the 1930s practically all visa requests from German Jews were refused by the Irish authorities.
“This position was maintained from 1939 to 1945 and we should no longer be in denial that, in the context of the Holocaust, Irish neutrality was a principle of moral bankruptcy.(my italics)
“This moral bankruptcy was compounded by the then Irish government who, after the war, only allowed an indefensibly small number who survived the concentration camps to settle permanently in Ireland and also by the visit of President de Valera to then German ambassador Edouard Hempel in 1945 to express his condolences on the death of Hitler.
“This position was maintained from 1939 to 1945 and we should no longer be in denial that, in the context of the Holocaust, Irish neutrality was a principle of moral bankruptcy.(my italics)
“This moral bankruptcy was compounded by the then Irish government who, after the war, only allowed an indefensibly small number who survived the concentration camps to settle permanently in Ireland and also by the visit of President de Valera to then German ambassador Edouard Hempel in 1945 to express his condolences on the death of Hitler.
"It is untenable that we commemorate those who died (a reference to Holocaust Memorial Day) whilst continuing to ignore the manner in which our State treated the living in the period immediately after World War II, who returned to our state having fought for freedom and democracy".
n a statement indicating the Irish government's willingness to pardon the Irish "deserters", Irish Justice Minister Alan Shatter made the following remarks about Irish neutrality before and during WW2, with particular reference to its failure to assist Jews who were seeking refuge from Nazi Germany.
Many countries refused to accept Jewish people fleeing the Nazi's, MS St Louis is but one example.
I know that Mr Shatter is Jewish, I believe he is the first ever Jew to be an Irish government minister. I don't know enough about him to know whether he can fairly be called a Zionist, but I'll take your word for it.
I hold no particular brief for the state of Israel, but whatever one's views on the actions of a state which wasn't formed until 1948, they seem irrelevant when considering the fate of the Jews attempting to escape Nazi oppression in the 1930's. There seems little doubt that Ireland's refusal to offer asylum to Jews at this time was in no small way influenced by the Catholic Church, whose attitude to the Jews in those days can at best be described as ambivalent.
As a Roman Catholic of Irish extraction I feel ashamed of both Ireland's and the Church's record in this area, and wholeheartedly agree with Mr Slatter's statement.
With reference to the MS St Louis, it should be noted that the United Kingdom accepted 288 of the 930 refugees who returned to Europe after its abortive trip to Cuba, the USA and Canada. I am not aware that Ireland took any in.
I hold no particular brief for the state of Israel, but whatever one's views on the actions of a state which wasn't formed until 1948, they seem irrelevant when considering the fate of the Jews attempting to escape Nazi oppression in the 1930's. There seems little doubt that Ireland's refusal to offer asylum to Jews at this time was in no small way influenced by the Catholic Church, whose attitude to the Jews in those days can at best be described as ambivalent.
As a Roman Catholic of Irish extraction I feel ashamed of both Ireland's and the Church's record in this area, and wholeheartedly agree with Mr Slatter's statement.
With reference to the MS St Louis, it should be noted that the United Kingdom accepted 288 of the 930 refugees who returned to Europe after its abortive trip to Cuba, the USA and Canada. I am not aware that Ireland took any in.