Puma Crash Sentence
sidewayspeak:
How very true, and yet that is exactly what he/she must do should the situation demand it. A Co's job is not just to "Pull up the gear, drop it and standby to feather" as the refrain has it; but to learn, to monitor, and if need be to challenge. Physical courage is one thing, but moral courage is perhaps a far more demanding quality. It is required by all ranks and at all times. Everyone from Airman to Air Marshal is charged, for example, to disobey an illegal order. Not only to disobey, but to report it up the CoC. Yes, glad rag you are right, it's a pound to a penny that the CoC will close up, back the one who gave the order and victimise the whistle-blower. Tough! Illegal orders can mean that people die, for instance those from 2*'s instructing subordinates to suborn the UK Military Airworthiness Regulations. Some 62 people to date, and counting. The moral of this sad thread is think on now and decide what you will do if faced with a similar dilemma. If it is nothing, then I suggest you are in the wrong job.
The military system is not good at allowing people to criticise our 'seniors' and it is a brave man that stands up to one's captain.
All this "he should have done this, that, the other" BS
He would have had no support from either his superiors or peers if he had spoken out, seen the same with an Engo [and his serving wife] being blackballed from the officers mess by a campaign led by a middle level Sqdn manager.
He would have had no support from either his superiors or peers if he had spoken out, seen the same with an Engo [and his serving wife] being blackballed from the officers mess by a campaign led by a middle level Sqdn manager.
CG
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Contrary to predictions of threads getting out of control it is refreshing to see the two sides of a coin being debated in a constructive manner. Lets change that 
We are privileged to have a number of retired senior RAF, Fleet Air Arm and possibly Army Air Corp pilots that frequent this forum and my question to them is:
How many very junior pilots entered your office with a formal complaint in writing to complain about the dangerous flying of a pilot they were flying with? Following on from that did you then put that complaint into the system for further action?
I am certain folks go into the boss’s office and have an unofficial chat and suggest they were unhappy or would prefer not to fly with ‘x’ or ‘y’, but to me that is NOT making an official complaint, in fact it is possibly delegating the responsibility to someone else. The person we complain to was not present during that flight and has no real idea of just how bad things were. By having a quiet word all that might happen is you may, or may not be allocated to fly with that pilot whilst in that posting.
The commanding officer may or may not then have a quiet word with the pilot being complained about but in my personal opinion this may work…. It may not but it is a World of difference from crossing the line and making the complaint official! That type of complaint is something I have never witnessed but I am guessing the officer making the complaint will not be the toast of any mess! Will making an official complaint stay on the pilot's record even if a board decide there is no case to answer?
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How many times have you made an official complaint? Words are cheap and one person’s definition of what is dangerous may well be another person’s definition of getting the most out of their equipment.
Could I make an official complaint about the deeds of a fellow officer?? I doubt it unless the act was so bad as to be criminal.
I have had a number of men and women complain about the way I worked. I had their bosses telling me about the complaints but did it change me? These same bosses were also regularly dealing with requests from other folks to come out on patrol with me (go figure) and no, I never changed, but having said that not one person EVER put pen to paper to make any type of official complaint.
Is flying a helicopter along a fire-break in a forest a big no, no? Been there, got the ‘T’ shirt and felt quite comfortable BUT I do accept that others may feel uncomfortable with this type of flying and may well voice their concerns.
Different folks, different strokes! Click RESPECT to those brave young men.
IN NO WAY AM I DEFENDING the pilot of this specific aircraft, but I do have a degree of sympathy for the co-pilot, although I am not privy to what this person may or may not have done on that tragic day.
We are privileged to have a number of retired senior RAF, Fleet Air Arm and possibly Army Air Corp pilots that frequent this forum and my question to them is:
How many very junior pilots entered your office with a formal complaint in writing to complain about the dangerous flying of a pilot they were flying with? Following on from that did you then put that complaint into the system for further action?
I am certain folks go into the boss’s office and have an unofficial chat and suggest they were unhappy or would prefer not to fly with ‘x’ or ‘y’, but to me that is NOT making an official complaint, in fact it is possibly delegating the responsibility to someone else.
The person we complain to was not present during that flight and has no real idea of just how bad things were. By having a quiet word all that might happen is you may, or may not be allocated to fly with that pilot whilst in that posting. The commanding officer may or may not then have a quiet word with the pilot being complained about but in my personal opinion this may work…. It may not but it is a World of difference from crossing the line and making the complaint official! That type of complaint is something I have never witnessed but I am guessing the officer making the complaint will not be the toast of any mess! Will making an official complaint stay on the pilot's record even if a board decide there is no case to answer?
if you do not have the moral courage to do so then you are in the wrong job
How many times have you made an official complaint? Words are cheap and one person’s definition of what is dangerous may well be another person’s definition of getting the most out of their equipment.
Could I make an official complaint about the deeds of a fellow officer?? I doubt it unless the act was so bad as to be criminal.
I have had a number of men and women complain about the way I worked. I had their bosses telling me about the complaints but did it change me? These same bosses were also regularly dealing with requests from other folks to come out on patrol with me (go figure) and no, I never changed, but having said that not one person EVER put pen to paper to make any type of official complaint.
Is flying a helicopter along a fire-break in a forest a big no, no? Been there, got the ‘T’ shirt and felt quite comfortable BUT I do accept that others may feel uncomfortable with this type of flying and may well voice their concerns.
Different folks, different strokes! Click RESPECT to those brave young men.
IN NO WAY AM I DEFENDING the pilot of this specific aircraft, but I do have a degree of sympathy for the co-pilot, although I am not privy to what this person may or may not have done on that tragic day.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
In the cockpit you have that testerone charged wall. If you speak up in front of others, especially non-crew, then people often react contrarily. Have you never told the wife that your driving is perfectly safe when, in your heart of hearts you know you made a mistake?
Had JTO gone instead to the boss then the outcome may well have been different.
There's either some huge conspiracy theorists or some very cynical ones on here (what, on PPRune, surely not?!). I don't know what it's like in the heavy world or in other services but the SH force does still have the culture where you can criticise your seniors. The captain of the ac is just the one nominally in charge for that sortie; the next day it could be the other chap, so there isn't so much the cross-cockpit gradient until you get differing ranks. Even then I would hope and expect that anyone can shout up and say that the senior bod was in the wrong. Anyone who has worked with SH crewmen know that they're usually not afraid of speaking their mind!
Of course, there are always those who will not listen and those who will not speak up, whether it is through fear or ignorance of seeing any wrong-doing. It is for the others around to try to recognise that and encourage a change, not matter how small.
Right, I'll leave my utopian world now and go and visit planet Earth!
Of course, there are always those who will not listen and those who will not speak up, whether it is through fear or ignorance of seeing any wrong-doing. It is for the others around to try to recognise that and encourage a change, not matter how small.
Right, I'll leave my utopian world now and go and visit planet Earth!
I hope that your utopian world is very much the real one these days, MG. If the RAF has not yet fully embraced CRM, FDM, or whatever the title is this week, then it really needs to get on with it. The time and place "to sort things out" is the here and now, not the boss's office or by some formal reporting system. That is a last resort and after the damage is done, even if it be merely the breakdown of proper crew co-operation.
The more formal course that I alluded to in a previous post was the parallel scenario of receiving an illegal order, more likely sitting behind a desk than a control column. It would seem that has become more of an occupational hazard since my day, so no I haven't knowingly given or received an illegal order, but I remember being very impressed in training when the concept was explained. We weren't that far away time wise from when a whole war had been fought by our enemies on that basis. Perhaps it's time to get the history books re-opened!
Finally, and on a lighter note, here is the Oscar Brand Co-Pilot's Lament. The whole point is that this is not the way it should be done, in case there is any doubt and no, I am not referring to the modern aircrew filmed to illustrate it:-
The more formal course that I alluded to in a previous post was the parallel scenario of receiving an illegal order, more likely sitting behind a desk than a control column. It would seem that has become more of an occupational hazard since my day, so no I haven't knowingly given or received an illegal order, but I remember being very impressed in training when the concept was explained. We weren't that far away time wise from when a whole war had been fought by our enemies on that basis. Perhaps it's time to get the history books re-opened!
Finally, and on a lighter note, here is the Oscar Brand Co-Pilot's Lament. The whole point is that this is not the way it should be done, in case there is any doubt and no, I am not referring to the modern aircrew filmed to illustrate it:-
Last edited by Chugalug2; 22nd Dec 2011 at 13:41. Reason: Much too much very much
the primary culprit lost his life - and that, surely, is far more of a deterrent to any copycat activity than any prison sentence could ever be?
Last edited by TorqueOfTheDevil; 22nd Dec 2011 at 13:19.
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Okay, a suspended sentence may seem a bit lean but we have to remember that the guy already lost his job as well as the use of his legs and he wasn't even the skipper.
If pure self preservation wasn't motive enough for the crew to speak up and end the madness I'm not sure there's any deterrent sentence that could.
If pure self preservation wasn't motive enough for the crew to speak up and end the madness I'm not sure there's any deterrent sentence that could.
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Oggers said:
I think that's an interesting point. If being scared doesn't motivate you to speak up, to what extent will anything else?
Experience, or lack of, played a large part in this tragedy.
Sun.
If pure self preservation wasn't motive enough for the crew to speak up and end the madness I'm not sure there's any deterrent sentence that could.
Experience, or lack of, played a large part in this tragedy.
Sun.
I was in the mil for 17 yrs, flying full time.
I then left and flew in civvy street for 14 yrs.
I now teach mil pilots in a mil environment.
Guess what, CRM is still an alien concept in the mil even though they all attest to it, they don't:
(a) understand it.
(b) contribute towards it.
It's a top down philosophy which is long overdue and will take several more innocent "bystanders" with it before it is fully embraced, as it is in civvy street.
Perhaps there is room for it within the MAA, but someone has to shout this from the rooftops and it won't be coal face workers doing the shouting either
I then left and flew in civvy street for 14 yrs.
I now teach mil pilots in a mil environment.
Guess what, CRM is still an alien concept in the mil even though they all attest to it, they don't:
(a) understand it.
(b) contribute towards it.
It's a top down philosophy which is long overdue and will take several more innocent "bystanders" with it before it is fully embraced, as it is in civvy street.
Perhaps there is room for it within the MAA, but someone has to shout this from the rooftops and it won't be coal face workers doing the shouting either
Some of the "there but for the grace....." type comments are counterproductive; although ultimately an error led to the loss of the aircraft, by their reckless violation of procedure, they hugely increased the risk of an error occurring.
The enabling culture which should easily (AND without recrimination) allow people to raise concerns is not present across all military aviation. To say an individual lacks moral fibre if they don't feel able to speak up indicates a lack of awareness of the sometimes insidious nature of the issues. Simply teaching people about CRM isn't enough; more people need to walk the walk.
The idea of the 'quiet word' can also be dangerous; sometimes there are people we don't like to fly with. The starkest example I can think of is Bud Holland who was able to continue flying, until he stalled his B52 at Fairchild AFB in 1994.People had spoken out regarding Holland’s previous behaviour, but successive commanders had had a 'quiet word' & taken no formal action.
The aviator who doesn’t make errors and ‘always’ follows procedures has not yet been born and we don’t as yet have a perfect safety culture. Without a greater recognition and will to address wider cultural issues, the idea of the ‘bad apple’s’ is perpetuated, acting as a disincentive to efforts to improve the overall safety culture.
The enabling culture which should easily (AND without recrimination) allow people to raise concerns is not present across all military aviation. To say an individual lacks moral fibre if they don't feel able to speak up indicates a lack of awareness of the sometimes insidious nature of the issues. Simply teaching people about CRM isn't enough; more people need to walk the walk.
The idea of the 'quiet word' can also be dangerous; sometimes there are people we don't like to fly with. The starkest example I can think of is Bud Holland who was able to continue flying, until he stalled his B52 at Fairchild AFB in 1994.People had spoken out regarding Holland’s previous behaviour, but successive commanders had had a 'quiet word' & taken no formal action.
The aviator who doesn’t make errors and ‘always’ follows procedures has not yet been born and we don’t as yet have a perfect safety culture. Without a greater recognition and will to address wider cultural issues, the idea of the ‘bad apple’s’ is perpetuated, acting as a disincentive to efforts to improve the overall safety culture.
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A scary bit for me is that all my "There but for the grace..." moments have pretty much been within auth and legal! I seemed to have an affinity with electricity and was 'lucky' to never get involved in an incident. I know of another with similar tales who does not know if the aircraft went over or under HT wires whilst overseas!
Sat in the left hand seat of a Puma up the Eastern Branch River once and was scared sh..less! I voiced my concern as there were no escape routes from that low and got thoroughly brow beaten from the two operating crew members, yet that to was legal and within auth.
'Train to fight' has its baggage on occasion. "Taken on risk" are the buzzwords nowadays. Until it goes pete-tong, for then you are on your own.
Sat in the left hand seat of a Puma up the Eastern Branch River once and was scared sh..less! I voiced my concern as there were no escape routes from that low and got thoroughly brow beaten from the two operating crew members, yet that to was legal and within auth.
'Train to fight' has its baggage on occasion. "Taken on risk" are the buzzwords nowadays. Until it goes pete-tong, for then you are on your own.
woptb:
It took the tragedies at Manchester and East Midlands for the airlines to take their Road to Damascus. Cabin Crew members were aware of what the Flight Deck crew were not. That an engine fire was burning its way into the cabin due to the aircraft being stopped crosswind off the runway. That the PA being made by the Captain about a faulty engine seemed to refer to the wrong engine. In neither case was their concern transmitted to the Flight Deck, for fear of challenging them. People died or were dreadfully injured. Thus Flight Deck Management mutated into Crew Resource Management. Cultural resistance was overcome because the cost of it was too great. So it is with this tragedy, for who can say that the cost should be borne still?
You make a good point, Yozzer. Military Flying, whether training or operational, is for war. There is an inherent risk that makes it different from Commercial Aviation. All the more reason then to stay within your Authorisation risky though it may be, and not add to the risk unnecessarily. The idea is to train to go to war, not to not go to war because crew, pax, and aircraft have been lost before getting there! CRM increases our military potential, just as airworthiness does. High time that the RAF adopted both fully!
Without a greater recognition and will to address wider cultural issues
You make a good point, Yozzer. Military Flying, whether training or operational, is for war. There is an inherent risk that makes it different from Commercial Aviation. All the more reason then to stay within your Authorisation risky though it may be, and not add to the risk unnecessarily. The idea is to train to go to war, not to not go to war because crew, pax, and aircraft have been lost before getting there! CRM increases our military potential, just as airworthiness does. High time that the RAF adopted both fully!
Chug,
I think the difficulty in the military comes when you fly with someone who has an influence on your career, such as your flt cdr. If you take all of those out of the cockpit then I suspect that comes closer to your average civilian cockpit. Therefore, in this respect, the military does embrace CRM and is on a level with any operation you care to compare it with, so don't get or give the impression that the military are behind because I truly don't think that is the case.
If, however, you add in the cross-cockpit gradient, then there will always be those who prefer not to speak up, believing that either 'the flt cdr knows best' or that it would be detrimental to their next report. On the other side, there are those in power who think they know better or who were better when they were younger and won't or don't recognise that. That still exists but not nearly in the same way as it did even 5 years ago. I don't think we're far from getting there and the accident to which this thread refers has nothing to with positions of power, just a junior crew who didn't have time to grow up, sadly.
I think the difficulty in the military comes when you fly with someone who has an influence on your career, such as your flt cdr. If you take all of those out of the cockpit then I suspect that comes closer to your average civilian cockpit. Therefore, in this respect, the military does embrace CRM and is on a level with any operation you care to compare it with, so don't get or give the impression that the military are behind because I truly don't think that is the case.
If, however, you add in the cross-cockpit gradient, then there will always be those who prefer not to speak up, believing that either 'the flt cdr knows best' or that it would be detrimental to their next report. On the other side, there are those in power who think they know better or who were better when they were younger and won't or don't recognise that. That still exists but not nearly in the same way as it did even 5 years ago. I don't think we're far from getting there and the accident to which this thread refers has nothing to with positions of power, just a junior crew who didn't have time to grow up, sadly.
If, however, you add in the cross-cockpit gradient, then there will always be those who prefer not to speak up, believing that either 'the flt cdr knows best' or that it would be detrimental to their next report.
Chug,
Read my previous posts; I do believe that flt cdrs, trg captains, and all others involved in bringing the capabilities of their charges along, understand the absolute need for crews to work in harmony together to get the best results. You only have to look at some of the great efforts expended daily in Afghanistan to appreciate that we're not that bad really. There will always be the odd poor apple on both sides, as I have said, and I think that some of the comments on previous posts reflect that, but please do not get the impression that we are that far behind, nor, probably more importantly, that the civilian world is significantly better.
Read my previous posts; I do believe that flt cdrs, trg captains, and all others involved in bringing the capabilities of their charges along, understand the absolute need for crews to work in harmony together to get the best results. You only have to look at some of the great efforts expended daily in Afghanistan to appreciate that we're not that bad really. There will always be the odd poor apple on both sides, as I have said, and I think that some of the comments on previous posts reflect that, but please do not get the impression that we are that far behind, nor, probably more importantly, that the civilian world is significantly better.
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
Unfortunately death, injury or prison is not usualy a deterrent for those who fly recklessly. In their world, there is no comprehension that what they are doing is even wrong, let alone something you could be punished for.
Interesting points about CRM and cockpit gradient, remembering the AAC have had SNCO aircraft captains responsible for commissioned pilots for years now and seem to have reached a thoroughly professional level of crew cooperation outside the normal bounds of rank and seniority. So in that environment it is incorrect to assume the senior (in rank) pilot will call the shots.
The most dangerous flights are, and will continue to be, when Mate A and Mate B go for a jolly and to all intents and purposes, nobody is command of the aircraft. It is also the responsibility of Authorising Officers to recognise the potential for complacency with such flights, and provide an appropriate breifing with the authorisation.
Interesting points about CRM and cockpit gradient, remembering the AAC have had SNCO aircraft captains responsible for commissioned pilots for years now and seem to have reached a thoroughly professional level of crew cooperation outside the normal bounds of rank and seniority. So in that environment it is incorrect to assume the senior (in rank) pilot will call the shots.
The most dangerous flights are, and will continue to be, when Mate A and Mate B go for a jolly and to all intents and purposes, nobody is command of the aircraft. It is also the responsibility of Authorising Officers to recognise the potential for complacency with such flights, and provide an appropriate breifing with the authorisation.
Two's in,
A good point that I had forgotten about. To a much lesser degree, in the RAF, it is far from uncommon to have a flt lt captain with a more senior officer in the operating crew. I've done it and I don't think it has too much of a detrimental effect. As I said, there are always exceptions to the rule and I don't think others should get the impression that rank and positions of power are always a bar to good CRM and general airmanship. Things have changed exponentially, certainly in the past 5 years.
A good point that I had forgotten about. To a much lesser degree, in the RAF, it is far from uncommon to have a flt lt captain with a more senior officer in the operating crew. I've done it and I don't think it has too much of a detrimental effect. As I said, there are always exceptions to the rule and I don't think others should get the impression that rank and positions of power are always a bar to good CRM and general airmanship. Things have changed exponentially, certainly in the past 5 years.
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I can't agree that CRM wasn't working in the RAF some time ago (iirc, Charliegolf was allowed to be stroppy years ago). But having read the report on this tragic flight, it seems to me that things might have gone somewhat backwards since my time on Puma SH almost twenty years ago.
I never personally found the "upwards seniority gradient" as a barrier to flight safety issues. I once severely bollocked a senior officer for a major transgression of his authorisation. I subsequently told my Sqn Cdr I would not ever auth. that particular individual again. I was never latterly required to.
I never personally found the "upwards seniority gradient" as a barrier to flight safety issues. I once severely bollocked a senior officer for a major transgression of his authorisation. I subsequently told my Sqn Cdr I would not ever auth. that particular individual again. I was never latterly required to.