Vulcan - bone domes
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AR5's were a pain in the backside in any scenario. Stinky bags of aircrew sweat and snot. Yeugh.
I upset the Di staff once when they wanted to see how long it would take us to evacuate the PBF through the airlock. Unfortunately having spent way too many hours in there I'd got the knack of hitting both buttons at the same time so everyone could swan out through the wide open doors.
(Yeah OK that seemed a lot more interesting in my head!)
I upset the Di staff once when they wanted to see how long it would take us to evacuate the PBF through the airlock. Unfortunately having spent way too many hours in there I'd got the knack of hitting both buttons at the same time so everyone could swan out through the wide open doors.
(Yeah OK that seemed a lot more interesting in my head!)
AR5 came long after the Vulcan had been retired.
I had to fly a Vulcan in 'normal' NBC kit once - because the DI staff had cocked up the exercise and hadn't downgraded the air raid status before we were brought to cockpit readiness. So we went to our jet in tin hats and S6 respirators; no time to change as we had to call in at RS02....
Then we were scrambled.
3 itchy hours in NBC kit over flying suit, with a conventional LSJ on top. Deep joy......
I had to fly a Vulcan in 'normal' NBC kit once - because the DI staff had cocked up the exercise and hadn't downgraded the air raid status before we were brought to cockpit readiness. So we went to our jet in tin hats and S6 respirators; no time to change as we had to call in at RS02....
Then we were scrambled.
3 itchy hours in NBC kit over flying suit, with a conventional LSJ on top. Deep joy......
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AR5 came long after the Vulcan had been retired
I did my first AR5 course (for the F-4) in Jan 1982. By then the Vulcan was being retired, although the South Atlantic War a few months later provided a stay of execution.
But there was no point in modifying the Vulcan to be AR5 compatible, so Vulcan crews never suffered the joys of the whistling handbag....
I did another AR5 course (for the VC10K) in Sep 1990 when recalled from UAS child abuse for the first Gulf war....
Then another VC10K AR5 course in 1993 when I returned to the AAR world after completing my UAS tour when released after GW1. By then I was reasonably familiar with the wretched thing.
The worst part was 'donning and doffing', which was invariably close-paced during training. If you had time to don the wretched device, then sit quietly for 5-10 minutes, it wasn't too bad after you'd cooled down and got your breath back. But 'they' never gave us the opportunity to do that....
But there was no point in modifying the Vulcan to be AR5 compatible, so Vulcan crews never suffered the joys of the whistling handbag....
I did another AR5 course (for the VC10K) in Sep 1990 when recalled from UAS child abuse for the first Gulf war....
Then another VC10K AR5 course in 1993 when I returned to the AAR world after completing my UAS tour when released after GW1. By then I was reasonably familiar with the wretched thing.
The worst part was 'donning and doffing', which was invariably close-paced during training. If you had time to don the wretched device, then sit quietly for 5-10 minutes, it wasn't too bad after you'd cooled down and got your breath back. But 'they' never gave us the opportunity to do that....
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
2 - I also recently bought a Vulcan rear crew PEC with Pressure Jerkin fitting. No, the rear crew had the MSC, a huge block of metal called a Multi-Service Connector. Martin Baker took one look at it and said 'not on my seats' and designed the PEC. When swivel seats were fitted the connector became the SSC or swivel seat connector.
I have a Mk4 Pressure Jerkin - the Jerkin fitting seems to align quite well on Lightning, Bccaneer and Sea Vixen PEC's, but the Vulcan rear crew PEC seems a little long, as though the mask oxy hose would poke you in the chin! Was there a special Jerkin for the Vulcan rear crew? The jerkin was the same for all Vulcan crew. The connector may seem long but remember it was not used with the swivel seat.
What masks were suitable for flying with the pressure jerkins? A-13, M-Type or P/Q-Type? Would the Vulcan's have been operated with all mask types over the years in conjunction with Pressure Jerkins?
The M-series, a copy of an American mask iirc had a flat sealing strip, it didn't hold the pressure properly. The P/Q had an innovation by turning the flange inside. The M-series was mentioned but I dont know if it was used on Vulcans
I have a Mk4 Pressure Jerkin - the Jerkin fitting seems to align quite well on Lightning, Bccaneer and Sea Vixen PEC's, but the Vulcan rear crew PEC seems a little long, as though the mask oxy hose would poke you in the chin! Was there a special Jerkin for the Vulcan rear crew? The jerkin was the same for all Vulcan crew. The connector may seem long but remember it was not used with the swivel seat.
What masks were suitable for flying with the pressure jerkins? A-13, M-Type or P/Q-Type? Would the Vulcan's have been operated with all mask types over the years in conjunction with Pressure Jerkins?
The M-series, a copy of an American mask iirc had a flat sealing strip, it didn't hold the pressure properly. The P/Q had an innovation by turning the flange inside. The M-series was mentioned but I dont know if it was used on Vulcans
''As an aside - I remember that the Mk4 `could not be used` in the Chipmunk because it had never been formally cleared!(according to MoD PE)'''
Not the case later. I wore a Mk4B in the Chippy - quite legally. The 4B has the independant visor lowering mechanism, useful for speccy twats like me as you only had to look thorigh two pieces of plastic if you wanted the dark visor down. However, when I later flew the Tucano, I had to trade it in for the 4A, as the 4B hadn't been tested and there was a throey that the extra mechanism could catch on some lose perspex when the MDC fired
Not the case later. I wore a Mk4B in the Chippy - quite legally. The 4B has the independant visor lowering mechanism, useful for speccy twats like me as you only had to look thorigh two pieces of plastic if you wanted the dark visor down. However, when I later flew the Tucano, I had to trade it in for the 4A, as the 4B hadn't been tested and there was a throey that the extra mechanism could catch on some lose perspex when the MDC fired
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The 4B was a terrible thing. Fiddly to fit and prone to breaking. I nearly took Fr*d Gr**dy's eye out with a screwdriver trying to fit his. He didn't notice and carried on munching his egg banjo.
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Anyone familiar with the older generation of RAFG PBF will know how space limited the dressing area was - all that kit hanging up in the centre and the wooden benches around the walls. So imagine the great joy when the Taceval team announced that there would be a 4-ship donning of AR5 (aka "Cambridge hooded rapist kit") and full NBC kit; elbows and Fullers earth all over the place, much cursing and lots of sweating.
The icing on the cake was that we would get to fly (Tornado) in this sartorial ensemble - well one crew member would; no prizes for guessing which one. It was just about bearable until the transition from whistling handbag to strapping in and being fed by the aircraft system - a distinct lack of blow accompanied by instant thermal upgrade. I have never felt so drained after a sortie - wringing wet, dehydrated, just shagged out. Have to say that the wearers need some help doffing (peeling off) the kit back in the PBF.
As for the anti-drowning valve - that wasn't 100% foolproof as I discovered in the N Luff swimming/drowning pool. I will admit to a small moment of panic as the water rose inside the rubber bag - no amount of blowing, or reasurance and advice from the bloke at pool side, could stop me from ripping off the face piece
Re Vulcan and AR5 - never saw or heard of it (left V-farce in '81). But the pressure jerkin was quite comfortable - we wore it often on 27 when operating at higher altitudes chasing clouds of dust around the Pacific.
Mister B
The icing on the cake was that we would get to fly (Tornado) in this sartorial ensemble - well one crew member would; no prizes for guessing which one. It was just about bearable until the transition from whistling handbag to strapping in and being fed by the aircraft system - a distinct lack of blow accompanied by instant thermal upgrade. I have never felt so drained after a sortie - wringing wet, dehydrated, just shagged out. Have to say that the wearers need some help doffing (peeling off) the kit back in the PBF.
As for the anti-drowning valve - that wasn't 100% foolproof as I discovered in the N Luff swimming/drowning pool. I will admit to a small moment of panic as the water rose inside the rubber bag - no amount of blowing, or reasurance and advice from the bloke at pool side, could stop me from ripping off the face piece
Re Vulcan and AR5 - never saw or heard of it (left V-farce in '81). But the pressure jerkin was quite comfortable - we wore it often on 27 when operating at higher altitudes chasing clouds of dust around the Pacific.
Mister B
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
The modified Mk 2s, degraded to Mk 1 standard with the Mk 17 regulator could go to 50k (not allowing for aerodynamic suck) on the P/Q mask alone.
If you had the Mk 21 then you would need the PJ above 45k and the g-pants to go above 50k.
So, you did have the Mk 21s? But if you didn't have the g-pants then it was a waste of time giving you Mk 21s and PJs.
The icing on the cake was that we would get to fly (Tornado) in this sartorial ensemble - well one crew member would; no prizes for guessing which one.
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PN
We would often be above F500, when chasing the cloud up and down, the "up" bit could see F580ish.
Mk 21 as I recall; this in conjunction with the partial pressure jerkin, an inelegant but comfortable shoulder to crutch inflatable body warmer; all the usual LSJ accroutrements were incorporated and it came in a dashing range of coulours - well, grey or gray. Not to counteract g-forces, but to keep vital organs inside the chest cavity in case of rapid decompression.
G-pants were not issued, presumably because we did not pull much of it.
The N Luff chamber experience for this kit was spectacular - definitely no beans - as the initial inflation of the jerkin was quite fierce, causing arms and legs to be thrown into "starfish" configuration very briefly. Toggle down on the mask for pressure breathing until the simulated altitude was decreased to more normal regime. The mask pressure was also quite positive, and I imagine that if the decomp was a real surprise, it would take a few breaths (or non-inhaled breaths) to stabilise into the pressure breathing pattern.
Mister B
We would often be above F500, when chasing the cloud up and down, the "up" bit could see F580ish.
Mk 21 as I recall; this in conjunction with the partial pressure jerkin, an inelegant but comfortable shoulder to crutch inflatable body warmer; all the usual LSJ accroutrements were incorporated and it came in a dashing range of coulours - well, grey or gray. Not to counteract g-forces, but to keep vital organs inside the chest cavity in case of rapid decompression.
G-pants were not issued, presumably because we did not pull much of it.
The N Luff chamber experience for this kit was spectacular - definitely no beans - as the initial inflation of the jerkin was quite fierce, causing arms and legs to be thrown into "starfish" configuration very briefly. Toggle down on the mask for pressure breathing until the simulated altitude was decreased to more normal regime. The mask pressure was also quite positive, and I imagine that if the decomp was a real surprise, it would take a few breaths (or non-inhaled breaths) to stabilise into the pressure breathing pattern.
Mister B
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
HTB, aaagh!
The g-pants were not for anti-g but to give vital pressure to the lower arteries, as against g, but to counter the pressure. Remember how you looked like an over-stuffed goose. You would have looked like an overstuffed elephant.
As you say, non-inhaled, you got the inhale bit and had to forcibly exhale and then try and count aloud.
The g-pants were not for anti-g but to give vital pressure to the lower arteries, as against g, but to counter the pressure. Remember how you looked like an over-stuffed goose. You would have looked like an overstuffed elephant.
As you say, non-inhaled, you got the inhale bit and had to forcibly exhale and then try and count aloud.
Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 9th Oct 2012 at 11:15.
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PN
My memory is still quite good, but I don't recall any mention of legs or arteries inflating prior to the 25k-52k in 3 seconds decompression chamber session. Not even a hint of advice to constrict blood flow by buttock clenching, lower abdomen or large leg muscle tensing . Could be I wasn't paying attention, but there was never a hint of g-pants being required for the the air sampling part of 27 Sqn's role (which was known to involve higher altitude ops - hence the differnt decomp profile).
Given the sqn's demographic dispersion, most of looked like over-stuffed geese without the aid of the jerkin - and I wouldn't dare tell the Nav and Radar leaders that they looked like elephants (even though we dislayed two on the fin) as they were bigger than me and did not suffer fools.
Mister B
My memory is still quite good, but I don't recall any mention of legs or arteries inflating prior to the 25k-52k in 3 seconds decompression chamber session. Not even a hint of advice to constrict blood flow by buttock clenching, lower abdomen or large leg muscle tensing . Could be I wasn't paying attention, but there was never a hint of g-pants being required for the the air sampling part of 27 Sqn's role (which was known to involve higher altitude ops - hence the differnt decomp profile).
Given the sqn's demographic dispersion, most of looked like over-stuffed geese without the aid of the jerkin - and I wouldn't dare tell the Nav and Radar leaders that they looked like elephants (even though we dislayed two on the fin) as they were bigger than me and did not suffer fools.
Mister B
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
HTB, you remind me, I think the 52k was possible with the jerkin or, and this is worse, to give you the effect of 50k actual with aerodynamic suck.
The other thing that occurs is that you must have had, for the rear crew, a different or modified SSC as the pressure jerkin needed its own connection which was one reason why the MSC was such a pig.
The other thing that occurs is that you must have had, for the rear crew, a different or modified SSC as the pressure jerkin needed its own connection which was one reason why the MSC was such a pig.
Wow, this is a busy forum! It's going to be difficult for me to respond individually, but I'll have a shot!!
I'll try and answer back to posts in this one message....
Quick Questions: What are: DI, PBF, TACEVAL...?
BEagle - you mention "Normal NBC kit", what did this consist of?
G-Pants - The Vilcan did not have a supply for this, only Oxygen (for breathing and Jerkin) and AVS (Air Ventilated Suit). Unless there are some other connections elsewhere? - EDIT, see following posts!!
Pontius Navigator - I think this is the old Vulcan / Victor rear crew Hymatic MSC PEC I you're referring to:
Above images from Cosford Air Museum.
On the rear crew PEC / SSC, one of the angled fittings is for the bail-out bottle, what is the other bayonet fitting for? Is this where G-Pants would be connected? Of course if this is do,this only applies to rear crew, where would front crew attach G-Pants? EDIT, see following posts!!
The evolution of the three rear crew PEC / SSC types used in the Vulcan / Victors are detailed here:
My Vulcan / Victor rear crew HA PEC / SSC and bail-out bottle regulator:
The Position of the Pressure Jerkin pressure connector of a Vulcan / Victor rear crew PEC compared with a Sea Vixen / Buccaneer PEC:
This illustrates what I mean when I connect the V bomber PEC (SSC) to my Mk4 Pressure Jerkin, the mask hose Mk7 bayonet connector pokes you in the chin... so my question is: did different models of Pressure Jerkin have the PEC pressure attachment in different places? EDIT, see following posts!!
Masks:
Please see below, from left to right: A-13 (based on the American MS22001), M-Type Mk1, and M-Type Mk2. The A-13 uses a pressure compensated exhalation valve (same principal as P/Q-Types), and the M-Types used a manually adjusted exhalation valve (same as the earlier J-Type mask).
All of these masks have a returned lip. After the M-Type, the N-type mask is briefly referred to in the IAM book "Into Thin Air" but very little is known on it, and it's believed to be a pre-cursor to the P/Q-Types.
The Earlier H-Type and J-type did not use a returned lip to improve face sealing. This was more of a problem on the J-Type as it was a HA pressure breathing mask, but the H-type was a constant-flow mask with no exhalation back-pressure, so less leakage problems.
The M-Types were typically used just on the Canberra with a pressure waistcoat.
My Vulcan FRONT crew NBC PEC:
Dated 1981 when the Vulcan was still in service - the larger diameter hose is for AVS air to ventilate the hood, and the offset smaller diameter hose is for Breathing Air / Oxygen at high pressure to a chest mounted regulator, and fed to the mask.
Note, regular oxygen hose port is blocked off.
This connects perfectly to me AR-5 with respect to hose lengths, connector types etc..
Continued in next post......
I'll try and answer back to posts in this one message....
Quick Questions: What are: DI, PBF, TACEVAL...?
BEagle - you mention "Normal NBC kit", what did this consist of?
G-Pants - The Vilcan did not have a supply for this, only Oxygen (for breathing and Jerkin) and AVS (Air Ventilated Suit). Unless there are some other connections elsewhere? - EDIT, see following posts!!
Pontius Navigator - I think this is the old Vulcan / Victor rear crew Hymatic MSC PEC I you're referring to:
Above images from Cosford Air Museum.
On the rear crew PEC / SSC, one of the angled fittings is for the bail-out bottle, what is the other bayonet fitting for? Is this where G-Pants would be connected? Of course if this is do,this only applies to rear crew, where would front crew attach G-Pants? EDIT, see following posts!!
The evolution of the three rear crew PEC / SSC types used in the Vulcan / Victors are detailed here:
My Vulcan / Victor rear crew HA PEC / SSC and bail-out bottle regulator:
The Position of the Pressure Jerkin pressure connector of a Vulcan / Victor rear crew PEC compared with a Sea Vixen / Buccaneer PEC:
This illustrates what I mean when I connect the V bomber PEC (SSC) to my Mk4 Pressure Jerkin, the mask hose Mk7 bayonet connector pokes you in the chin... so my question is: did different models of Pressure Jerkin have the PEC pressure attachment in different places? EDIT, see following posts!!
Masks:
Please see below, from left to right: A-13 (based on the American MS22001), M-Type Mk1, and M-Type Mk2. The A-13 uses a pressure compensated exhalation valve (same principal as P/Q-Types), and the M-Types used a manually adjusted exhalation valve (same as the earlier J-Type mask).
All of these masks have a returned lip. After the M-Type, the N-type mask is briefly referred to in the IAM book "Into Thin Air" but very little is known on it, and it's believed to be a pre-cursor to the P/Q-Types.
The Earlier H-Type and J-type did not use a returned lip to improve face sealing. This was more of a problem on the J-Type as it was a HA pressure breathing mask, but the H-type was a constant-flow mask with no exhalation back-pressure, so less leakage problems.
The M-Types were typically used just on the Canberra with a pressure waistcoat.
My Vulcan FRONT crew NBC PEC:
Dated 1981 when the Vulcan was still in service - the larger diameter hose is for AVS air to ventilate the hood, and the offset smaller diameter hose is for Breathing Air / Oxygen at high pressure to a chest mounted regulator, and fed to the mask.
Note, regular oxygen hose port is blocked off.
This connects perfectly to me AR-5 with respect to hose lengths, connector types etc..
Continued in next post......
Last edited by ScottBouch; 10th Oct 2012 at 19:11.
Part 2:
Dates of 1981:
Photos from the Wellsbourne Vulcan cockpit:
FRONT seats:
Mk17 Regulator on left hand side:
REAR seats:
Mk17 Regulators:
Cheers, Scott
Dates of 1981:
Photos from the Wellsbourne Vulcan cockpit:
FRONT seats:
Mk17 Regulator on left hand side:
REAR seats:
Mk17 Regulators:
Cheers, Scott
Last edited by ScottBouch; 10th Oct 2012 at 19:12.
EDIT:
I've just checked through my AP on PEC's again, and found the connections for G-Trousers on the Front HA PEC's!
Interesting to learn that the vulcan used G-Trousers to aid the effects of the pressure Jerkin! I had wondered for ages what the extra fitting on the PEC / SSC was for!
I've learnt a lot about HA clothing.from you guys through this discussion! Thanks!
So, if flying so high that you need a Jerkin and G-Trousers, what mask / helmet would you need? A-13 mask, P/Q-Type mask, or Partial Pressure Helmet?
Cheers, Scott.
I've just checked through my AP on PEC's again, and found the connections for G-Trousers on the Front HA PEC's!
Interesting to learn that the vulcan used G-Trousers to aid the effects of the pressure Jerkin! I had wondered for ages what the extra fitting on the PEC / SSC was for!
I've learnt a lot about HA clothing.from you guys through this discussion! Thanks!
So, if flying so high that you need a Jerkin and G-Trousers, what mask / helmet would you need? A-13 mask, P/Q-Type mask, or Partial Pressure Helmet?
Cheers, Scott.
Last edited by ScottBouch; 10th Oct 2012 at 19:12.
This is my Mk4 Pressure Jerkin (on the left), shown with a Sea Vixen / Buccaneer HA PEC.
Comparing it to the previously mentioned one from Cosford (on the right and below) shown with the Hymatic MSC PEC, the pressure fitting is lower on the garment.. The fitting on mine is next to the SARBE pocket, and the Cosford fitting is below the pocket. This would help to explain why when I've fitted my rear crew PEC / SSC it 's mask connector sits too high, close to the chin.
I think it's safe to say that Cosford's Jerkin is definitely for a Victor or Vulcan, and mine is definitely not.
I wonder what Mk of Pressure Jerkin the Cosford one is...? Does anyone have any AP's / info on Pressure jerkins?
This illustrates that there was a difference in Jerkin types depending on which aircraft type you were in. I would have thought there would be some standardisation... hey-ho, learning every day!
Did the Valiant use similar kit?
Cheers, Scott.
Comparing it to the previously mentioned one from Cosford (on the right and below) shown with the Hymatic MSC PEC, the pressure fitting is lower on the garment.. The fitting on mine is next to the SARBE pocket, and the Cosford fitting is below the pocket. This would help to explain why when I've fitted my rear crew PEC / SSC it 's mask connector sits too high, close to the chin.
I think it's safe to say that Cosford's Jerkin is definitely for a Victor or Vulcan, and mine is definitely not.
I wonder what Mk of Pressure Jerkin the Cosford one is...? Does anyone have any AP's / info on Pressure jerkins?
This illustrates that there was a difference in Jerkin types depending on which aircraft type you were in. I would have thought there would be some standardisation... hey-ho, learning every day!
Did the Valiant use similar kit?
Cheers, Scott.
Last edited by ScottBouch; 10th Oct 2012 at 19:13.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Scott, just to get the terminology fixed. Remember PEC is for Pilots who used Martin Baker seats and the PEC was made by Martin Baker.
The rear crew, not being pilots used the Multi-Services Connector. If you look at the MSC you will note it was made by Hymatic at Reditch. The PEC on the other hand shows MBEU presumably Martin Baker.
The oxygen connector on the PEC shows L Adams (if I got that right) as the oxygen connector was a common item for all the bayonet oxygen tubes.
The rear crew, not being pilots used the Multi-Services Connector. If you look at the MSC you will note it was made by Hymatic at Reditch. The PEC on the other hand shows MBEU presumably Martin Baker.
The oxygen connector on the PEC shows L Adams (if I got that right) as the oxygen connector was a common item for all the bayonet oxygen tubes.