Remember Pearl Harbor
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"it makes my head spin when I read some of the rules councils etc have to adhere to now - stupid rules"
500N
Take a trip to Amsterdam and take note of the mothers who cycle through the City at all times of the day with their kids in boxes attached to the front. No high viz jackets or helmets for any of them.
Go to Paris and note the absence of single and double yellow lines or red ones being used to regulate parking.
Try Munich where no one walking would dare cross a road until the sign on the crossing permits it.
Or Sweden where teenage males are taken off to the country to learn field craft with real knives!
Lots of other examples I can think of. You might then ask yourself whose Regulations we are "having" to adhere to!
I am no fan of EU "edicts" but often it's our interpretation of them that is the issue. For example, Railway Stations and disabled access. In most of Europe all main ones do, others are just classed as Halts so don't. In the UK we spent Millions to comply by still calling everything a Station. Add to this our adoption of US compensation culture and we then have the worst of everything!
500N
Take a trip to Amsterdam and take note of the mothers who cycle through the City at all times of the day with their kids in boxes attached to the front. No high viz jackets or helmets for any of them.
Go to Paris and note the absence of single and double yellow lines or red ones being used to regulate parking.
Try Munich where no one walking would dare cross a road until the sign on the crossing permits it.
Or Sweden where teenage males are taken off to the country to learn field craft with real knives!
Lots of other examples I can think of. You might then ask yourself whose Regulations we are "having" to adhere to!
I am no fan of EU "edicts" but often it's our interpretation of them that is the issue. For example, Railway Stations and disabled access. In most of Europe all main ones do, others are just classed as Halts so don't. In the UK we spent Millions to comply by still calling everything a Station. Add to this our adoption of US compensation culture and we then have the worst of everything!
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Shackman
<<... without Pearl Harbour I suspect most of us on this side of the pond would have German as our 'mother tongue'. >>
mmmh, can't resist a mother of a tongue in cheek alternative perspective:
Before Hess dropped in, there had been something like 9 peace offers by the Germans that not only guaranteed Brit sovereignty but kept the empire intact their main interest was in stopping Bolshevism spreading west (remember the Red Army attempt to crash through Poland to Germany in 1920?). If it wasn't for the likes of Sikorksy then the Germans, one wonders what your mother tongue would be now if you were still around to speak that is (this is becoming a moot point nowadays it's not like English is the mother tongue of many in Britain's cities). Not only did the English had much in common with the Germans culturally in the '30s about 35% of Americans were ethnic German and I think one American state (Pennsylvania?) still had German as the state language until the 50s (was it Transylvania where the stockmarket was?).
The Italians then the Germans broke out of the great depression in the '30s we did not. It is a pity that this was achieved with such an extreme regime as the Nazis in charge I am sure that the majority of Germans would have been happy with a more conservative administration but such was the economic and social situation that something had to be done and they perceived the national socialists were the only ones capable of standing up to the commies, to the international financiers, and for their culture and so democratically voted them in with an overwhelming majority.
Given the current economic debacle gripping the whole western world right now, perhaps we should try and return to a sovereign national state issuing its own fiat currency and stabilising by manufacturing basic essentials locally the quality of programmes available to watch on those nice big flat-screen TVs is going down anyway, what you get to see between adverts anyway. We wouldn't need pogroms, just identify who owns all the money and agree to a reasonable settlement and then piss them off.
Of course you can always still hang onto the warm feeling that the propaganda has given you and leave it to the next generation to sort out if there is much of a next generation without a single ethnic European group anywhere on the planet having a birth-rate anywhere near the minimum replacement rate and with immigration taking over the living space anyway.
In WW2 we slaughtered our cousins and in the process lost so many of our best young men; we not only wrecked our mother countries but also lost control of the development of many colonies, in particular leaving those in Africa to be raped by multi-nationals that put nothing back.
Ah! I digress the dirty Japanese sneak attack (can't say surprise attack as all the ships that mattered were moved out beforehand) were you aware of the stranglehold of the oil embargo on Japan? - they only had a few months before oil shortages would have prevented large scale enterprises so were provoked to act which was handy really as going to war with Japan automatically got them to war with Germany so I suppose that you were correct to an extent about the implications of Pearl Harbour for Britain it wasn't just the 30,000+ war brides (ie our womenfolk) that were fcuked.
If it's not politically incorrect now to say so, Happy Christmas, all.
<<... without Pearl Harbour I suspect most of us on this side of the pond would have German as our 'mother tongue'. >>
mmmh, can't resist a mother of a tongue in cheek alternative perspective:
Before Hess dropped in, there had been something like 9 peace offers by the Germans that not only guaranteed Brit sovereignty but kept the empire intact their main interest was in stopping Bolshevism spreading west (remember the Red Army attempt to crash through Poland to Germany in 1920?). If it wasn't for the likes of Sikorksy then the Germans, one wonders what your mother tongue would be now if you were still around to speak that is (this is becoming a moot point nowadays it's not like English is the mother tongue of many in Britain's cities). Not only did the English had much in common with the Germans culturally in the '30s about 35% of Americans were ethnic German and I think one American state (Pennsylvania?) still had German as the state language until the 50s (was it Transylvania where the stockmarket was?).
The Italians then the Germans broke out of the great depression in the '30s we did not. It is a pity that this was achieved with such an extreme regime as the Nazis in charge I am sure that the majority of Germans would have been happy with a more conservative administration but such was the economic and social situation that something had to be done and they perceived the national socialists were the only ones capable of standing up to the commies, to the international financiers, and for their culture and so democratically voted them in with an overwhelming majority.
Given the current economic debacle gripping the whole western world right now, perhaps we should try and return to a sovereign national state issuing its own fiat currency and stabilising by manufacturing basic essentials locally the quality of programmes available to watch on those nice big flat-screen TVs is going down anyway, what you get to see between adverts anyway. We wouldn't need pogroms, just identify who owns all the money and agree to a reasonable settlement and then piss them off.
Of course you can always still hang onto the warm feeling that the propaganda has given you and leave it to the next generation to sort out if there is much of a next generation without a single ethnic European group anywhere on the planet having a birth-rate anywhere near the minimum replacement rate and with immigration taking over the living space anyway.
In WW2 we slaughtered our cousins and in the process lost so many of our best young men; we not only wrecked our mother countries but also lost control of the development of many colonies, in particular leaving those in Africa to be raped by multi-nationals that put nothing back.
Ah! I digress the dirty Japanese sneak attack (can't say surprise attack as all the ships that mattered were moved out beforehand) were you aware of the stranglehold of the oil embargo on Japan? - they only had a few months before oil shortages would have prevented large scale enterprises so were provoked to act which was handy really as going to war with Japan automatically got them to war with Germany so I suppose that you were correct to an extent about the implications of Pearl Harbour for Britain it wasn't just the 30,000+ war brides (ie our womenfolk) that were fcuked.
If it's not politically incorrect now to say so, Happy Christmas, all.
Last edited by walter kennedy; 9th Dec 2011 at 18:52. Reason: spelling
It was the Royal Navy that believed and proved it was possible to sink a battleship when we did it!
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So why did they send their battleships up the Malayan Peninsula without air cover?
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" So why did they send their battleships up the Malayan Peninsula without air cover?"
Because of Admiral Phillips and what he believed in, that the 2 Battleships, latest armour that he thought could withstand Jap bombs (didn't factor in the torpedoes), Radar Guided AA guns (that didn't work because of the humidity) and quite a few others, including underestimating the enemy.
They had air cover, it was only an hour away but he didn't call for it until it was too late.
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Because of Admiral Phillips and what he believed in, that the 2 Battleships, latest armour that he thought could withstand Jap bombs (didn't factor in the torpedoes), Radar Guided AA guns (that didn't work because of the humidity) and quite a few others, including underestimating the enemy.
They had air cover, it was only an hour away but he didn't call for it until it was too late.
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WK:
The something that had to be done was to go to war. It was only by plundering the treasuries and resources, private and public, of each and every "last territorial demand" that the Germans occupied thereafter that the Reich was able to keep the pace of State expenditure going to pay for all the pre-war public works, never mind those of war-time, which had been achieved thereto by simply cooking the books. You may envy such "creativity", but to emulate it you would also ultimately have to go to war.
As to the Italians, they have refined such creativity to a fine art, though it seems to have deserted them spectacularly recently. In their case going to war seems not to have worked, except at the very start. Their strength was in losing wars of course, as exemplified in Catch 22!
You mention Hess. His "flying visit" is one of the yet to be explained enigmas of WW2. His reception committee at Dungavel included a member of the British Royal family, according to eyewitnesses present.
The Italians then the Germans broke out of the great depression in the '30s we did not. It is a pity that this was achieved with such an extreme regime as the Nazis in charge I am sure that the majority of Germans would have been happy with a more conservative administration but such was the economic and social situation that something had to be done
As to the Italians, they have refined such creativity to a fine art, though it seems to have deserted them spectacularly recently. In their case going to war seems not to have worked, except at the very start. Their strength was in losing wars of course, as exemplified in Catch 22!
You mention Hess. His "flying visit" is one of the yet to be explained enigmas of WW2. His reception committee at Dungavel included a member of the British Royal family, according to eyewitnesses present.
Last edited by Chugalug2; 11th Dec 2011 at 15:08. Reason: Names, dear boy, names!
500N draken55
"it makes my head spin when I read some of the rules councils etc have to adhere to now - stupid rules"
500N
Take a trip to Amsterdam and take note of the mothers who cycle through the City at all times of the day with their kids in boxes attached to the front. No high viz jackets or helmets for any of them."
You also won't see ALL cyclists in London, or any of our big cities wearing high viz jackets or helmets as there is NO "EU dictat" making any of us wear anything of the sort. It's a lifestyle and personal survival choice.
By the way, just what exactly IS an 'EU dictat" other than some fictional invention of the Daily Mail?
"it makes my head spin when I read some of the rules councils etc have to adhere to now - stupid rules"
500N
Take a trip to Amsterdam and take note of the mothers who cycle through the City at all times of the day with their kids in boxes attached to the front. No high viz jackets or helmets for any of them."
You also won't see ALL cyclists in London, or any of our big cities wearing high viz jackets or helmets as there is NO "EU dictat" making any of us wear anything of the sort. It's a lifestyle and personal survival choice.
By the way, just what exactly IS an 'EU dictat" other than some fictional invention of the Daily Mail?
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Come and live in Victoria, Australia, everyone calls it the "nanny state" because of all the stupid rules they like or try to bring in. We have to wear helmets.
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500N,
Wow! Really? As in an actual law? Well, that's something that I didn't know, thanks.
Is it just a local 'State' law or a national thing?
That rather blows away the point that I was going to make on my post, that most 1st world developed countries have roughly the same level of health and safety and personal safety regs. Surely that is not a bad thing? After all we don't put 8 year old boys up chimneys or make 5 year old girls clean under moving machinery any more because the rules and regulations were tightened up to stop us doing that, not because of any sense of what was right or morally correct.
Remember, it was the TRADE UNIONS who gave us all the weekend, capped weekly hours, paid holidays, paid sickness and a duty of care to an employee, NOT benevolent employers.
Wow! Really? As in an actual law? Well, that's something that I didn't know, thanks.
Is it just a local 'State' law or a national thing?
That rather blows away the point that I was going to make on my post, that most 1st world developed countries have roughly the same level of health and safety and personal safety regs. Surely that is not a bad thing? After all we don't put 8 year old boys up chimneys or make 5 year old girls clean under moving machinery any more because the rules and regulations were tightened up to stop us doing that, not because of any sense of what was right or morally correct.
Remember, it was the TRADE UNIONS who gave us all the weekend, capped weekly hours, paid holidays, paid sickness and a duty of care to an employee, NOT benevolent employers.
It was the Royal Navy that believed and proved it was possible to sink a battleship when we did it!
Took place in 1921....and ignited a real war....between the Army Air Corps (now Air Force) and the Navy over strategic air power and ships. The war morphed into a very serious conflict when the Admirals almost mutinied over the issue in later years.
Air Power:Billy Mitchell Sinks the Ships
http://www.carlisle.army.mil/USAWC/p...0mcfarland.pdf
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I agree about not requesting the air cover but is that over simplifying this catastrophe. Churchill had a history of being reckless and was never too concerned regarding the lives of those involved in any of his reckless schemes. Is it correct to say the Navy breathed a sigh of relief when Churchill moved up from being First Lord of the Admiralty? Sadly he still ruled over the navy and against all advice it was his decision to deploy the Prince of Wales and Repulse to the Far East. He was informed about how exposed these ships would be to air attack but failed to listen to those that were against this deployment at that time, under those circumstances.
The majority of men onboard mightn't have known their destination but Churchill wasted little time in telling others. Within days of the Prince steaming out of the Clyde he informed President Roosevelt:
By November 10 the deployment of the ships became public knowledge; during a talk at the Lord Mayors Inaugural Luncheon at the Mansion House, he not only informed the British public of this fact his words confirmed to the Japanese that the ships were moving towards Singapore:
Never has that saying:
Loose lips sink ships been more apt.
On November 28 , 1941 the Japanese armed forces received information that the Prince of Wales and Repulse would enter port in Colombo and then head for Singapore. The Commander of the Japanese combined fleets Isoroku Yamamoto decided to send 36 warplanes of the type known as the Betty equipped with torpedoes to reinforce those already in Indo-China. On November 30 the Kanoya Naval Force was unofficially told to attack the Prince of Wales and Repulse using the Betty. They immediately began training day and night to maximise the potential of those aircraft and on December 3, a reconnaissance plane discovered the ships at Singapore. From then on the fate of those ships was sealed.
The force in Indo China that was going to be reinforced consisted of:
20 Aircraft including 90 heavy bombers. The majority of 2 fleet comprising of 12 modern cruisers, 28 destroyers now in Formosa, South China sea area. In addition, 9 submarines sighted 100 miles North of Camranh Bay on December 2 course South.
Hopefully folks will accept I was not being critical of the possibility of air cover for the Prince of Wales but the Japanese were aware of available numbers and had allowed for this contingency, would the outcome have still been the same but also the loss of all those aircraft sent out to protect these warships??
As you quite rightly point out the advanced radar could not cope with the humid conditions but RAF technicians could have modified the systems if they had been informed about it whilst the ships were at Singapore:
On the afternoon of December 8, Squadron Leader TC Carter was sent aboard with two RAF technicians to ascertain if the situation could be quickly remedied: he stated:
My questions though are:
Could air support have dealt with the Japanese aircraft? From what I have read it would have been unlikely.
If this air cover had been provided then it would have to operate well away from the warships as the ships gunfire would not differentiate between the good guys and the bad guys. It transpires that there were numerous squadrons of Japanese Zero aircraft that had been allocated to escort the attacking air groups, it was there task to solely deal with any air cover that attempted to cover these warships plus to eliminate the aircraft carried by the carrier that should have been in company with this battle group.
Our attack on the Bismark was called ruthless and perhaps we should have shown compassion once all her guns had ceased to function, but from what I have read the attack particularly on the Prince of Wales was even more savage!
I was impressed to read that the Repulse had somehow managed to evade over fifteen torpedoes, but she had no chance of winning that conflict and apart from numerous bombs that struck her, she was also hit by five torpedoes.
Slightly back on topic
Pearl Harbour could have been far, far worse. Most of the ships that were sunk rested on the harbour bottom and were salvaged. Most of the crews survived and it did not take long to recover.
If those ships had been at sea with full compliments aboard then the results would have been FAR, far more catastrophic. The ships and more important, all their crews would probably have disappeared beneath the waves and never seen again. They would have received the same punishment as that inflicted on those Royal Navy ships of war!
Move along to the Falklands conflict and we have HMS Coventry turning away air cover that was ready, willing and able to take on the incoming aircraft!
Winning any war is all about team work and one day we might all realise that. Apologies for the length of post and hopefully my comments are taken in the way they are meant.
Horses for courses.... RAF supply the tankers Royal Navy supply the fast jets
It can be said that neither Churchill nor his War Cabinet could offer any practical solution to the problem of two capital ships caught in a rapidly deteriorating situation. So we may assume they'd sailed to Singapore with no-preordained battle plan. Adding weight to this theory is up until the time of his departure with Force Z. Philips didn't receive any direct orders from Britain on what course of action he should pursue. In fact at their meeting of December 9th the War Cabinet deferred reaching judgment on this issue till the following morning, by which time Repulse and Prince of Wales had been sunk.
The majority of men onboard mightn't have known their destination but Churchill wasted little time in telling others. Within days of the Prince steaming out of the Clyde he informed President Roosevelt:
Originally Posted by Churchill
As your naval people have already been informed we are sending that big ship you inspected into the Indian Ocean as part of a squadron we are forming there. This ought to serve as a deterrent to Japan
By November 10 the deployment of the ships became public knowledge; during a talk at the Lord Mayors Inaugural Luncheon at the Mansion House, he not only informed the British public of this fact his words confirmed to the Japanese that the ships were moving towards Singapore:
Never has that saying:
Loose lips sink ships been more apt.
On November 28 , 1941 the Japanese armed forces received information that the Prince of Wales and Repulse would enter port in Colombo and then head for Singapore. The Commander of the Japanese combined fleets Isoroku Yamamoto decided to send 36 warplanes of the type known as the Betty equipped with torpedoes to reinforce those already in Indo-China. On November 30 the Kanoya Naval Force was unofficially told to attack the Prince of Wales and Repulse using the Betty. They immediately began training day and night to maximise the potential of those aircraft and on December 3, a reconnaissance plane discovered the ships at Singapore. From then on the fate of those ships was sealed.
The force in Indo China that was going to be reinforced consisted of:
20 Aircraft including 90 heavy bombers. The majority of 2 fleet comprising of 12 modern cruisers, 28 destroyers now in Formosa, South China sea area. In addition, 9 submarines sighted 100 miles North of Camranh Bay on December 2 course South.
Hopefully folks will accept I was not being critical of the possibility of air cover for the Prince of Wales but the Japanese were aware of available numbers and had allowed for this contingency, would the outcome have still been the same but also the loss of all those aircraft sent out to protect these warships??
As you quite rightly point out the advanced radar could not cope with the humid conditions but RAF technicians could have modified the systems if they had been informed about it whilst the ships were at Singapore:
On the afternoon of December 8, Squadron Leader TC Carter was sent aboard with two RAF technicians to ascertain if the situation could be quickly remedied: he stated:
Originally Posted by Squadron Leader TC Carter
I was somewhat irritated, when I found that the set had been unserviceable throughout the week that Prince of Wales had been in Singapore and it was only now when she was obviously being prepared for sailing that we were called in and asked to do the job at once. In the event we could not. Had we had been called in a couple of days earlier we might have been able to do the job. So it was Prince of Wales sailed with that radar set unserviceable
My questions though are:
Could air support have dealt with the Japanese aircraft? From what I have read it would have been unlikely.
If this air cover had been provided then it would have to operate well away from the warships as the ships gunfire would not differentiate between the good guys and the bad guys. It transpires that there were numerous squadrons of Japanese Zero aircraft that had been allocated to escort the attacking air groups, it was there task to solely deal with any air cover that attempted to cover these warships plus to eliminate the aircraft carried by the carrier that should have been in company with this battle group.
Our attack on the Bismark was called ruthless and perhaps we should have shown compassion once all her guns had ceased to function, but from what I have read the attack particularly on the Prince of Wales was even more savage!
I was impressed to read that the Repulse had somehow managed to evade over fifteen torpedoes, but she had no chance of winning that conflict and apart from numerous bombs that struck her, she was also hit by five torpedoes.
Slightly back on topic
Pearl Harbour could have been far, far worse. Most of the ships that were sunk rested on the harbour bottom and were salvaged. Most of the crews survived and it did not take long to recover.
If those ships had been at sea with full compliments aboard then the results would have been FAR, far more catastrophic. The ships and more important, all their crews would probably have disappeared beneath the waves and never seen again. They would have received the same punishment as that inflicted on those Royal Navy ships of war!
Move along to the Falklands conflict and we have HMS Coventry turning away air cover that was ready, willing and able to take on the incoming aircraft!
Winning any war is all about team work and one day we might all realise that. Apologies for the length of post and hopefully my comments are taken in the way they are meant.
Horses for courses.... RAF supply the tankers Royal Navy supply the fast jets
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glojo
I was being a bit over simplistic as I din't want to thread drift too far.
Plenty of good info to read about it all.
You are correct in everything you say, especially Churchill and the Radar which could have been fied, but ultimately isn't it up to the Admiral ? Can't fob everything off back to Churchill just because he didn't have orders. That's like ordering an infantry assault without any pre bombardment or fire support of any kind, Arty or MG's.
Re the aircraft, I believe but am not as well read as you that even though the aircraft available were not up to the jap one's, they might have made them hesitate and / or at least been able to take them on / disrupt an attack / given them something else to focus on other than dropping bombs.
Germany threw many hundreds of planes at us during the battle of Britain, it wouldn't have mattered if we only had one Spitfire left, I reckon it would still have gone up.
Repulse did do well but as you say, when those 5 hit here, that was it.
I was being a bit over simplistic as I din't want to thread drift too far.
Plenty of good info to read about it all.
You are correct in everything you say, especially Churchill and the Radar which could have been fied, but ultimately isn't it up to the Admiral ? Can't fob everything off back to Churchill just because he didn't have orders. That's like ordering an infantry assault without any pre bombardment or fire support of any kind, Arty or MG's.
Re the aircraft, I believe but am not as well read as you that even though the aircraft available were not up to the jap one's, they might have made them hesitate and / or at least been able to take them on / disrupt an attack / given them something else to focus on other than dropping bombs.
Germany threw many hundreds of planes at us during the battle of Britain, it wouldn't have mattered if we only had one Spitfire left, I reckon it would still have gone up.
Repulse did do well but as you say, when those 5 hit here, that was it.
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pr00ne
State law, although most states seem to follow one another.
Re "health and safety and personal safety regs", I don't have a problem with H&S, especially having served under an SAS Major who sometimes disregarded any rules, regs and orders but it has gone way beyond that.
We call it wrapping everyone up in cotton wool to protect themselves, can't do this, can't do that, no contact sports, too dangerous, children might get hurt.
I commented on my GF's 11 year old today who had a cut / graze on his knee. That is the first cut / graze / scab I've seen on any of her 3 boys (Age 11, 14 and 17) in 2 years. Anyway, enough of that.
State law, although most states seem to follow one another.
Re "health and safety and personal safety regs", I don't have a problem with H&S, especially having served under an SAS Major who sometimes disregarded any rules, regs and orders but it has gone way beyond that.
We call it wrapping everyone up in cotton wool to protect themselves, can't do this, can't do that, no contact sports, too dangerous, children might get hurt.
I commented on my GF's 11 year old today who had a cut / graze on his knee. That is the first cut / graze / scab I've seen on any of her 3 boys (Age 11, 14 and 17) in 2 years. Anyway, enough of that.
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Originally Posted by 500N
You are correct in everything you say, especially Churchill and the Radar which could have been fied, but ultimately isn't it up to the Admiral ? Can't fob everything off back to Churchill just because he didn't have orders. That's like ordering an infantry assault without any pre bombardment or fire support of any kind, Arty or MG's.
It is so easy to fight any battle with General Hind-Sight sitting in his comfortable armchair, but sadly when we are working at the pit face then the task might not be as easy. I will just very respectfully suggest that this event happened just three days after Pearl harbour.
The Japanese had overnight changed the pecking order regarding capital ships and it could be suggested all our flag officers no matter what service they were in were all very loath to consider new tactics. If it was good enough for the previous war then it is good enough for the next. Admiral Phillips was one such leader that believed in the invincibility of his ships when put against air power
This Admiral underestimated the capabilities of modern war planes and for that error he and his Captain accepted their responsibilities and both men opted to go down with their ship. As far as I am aware neither died as a result of combat; they died when they opted to remain aboard instead of taking to the life boats. I am NOT going to speculate why they made that decision but suffice it to say they did what they considered the honourable thing.
I take your point about not blaming Churchill and I for one recognise the FACT that his captaincy is what bought about the downfall of Hitler. However as head of the Royal Navy he was I will tactfully suggest a square peg in a round hole. Rather than prattle on about his failings as the First Sea Lord I will simply give just one example of what he was capable of when in that position. Click You would like to think he would have learned from that but sadly that was not the case.
I would suggest the fate of the Prince of Wales was sealed when in the beginning of November our Prime Minister for some strange reason informed the World that both her and the Repulse were heading to Singapore!!
Unbeknown to Churchill these ships would be in the area of those islands at the same time as the Japanese were going to invade.
I am guessing that as soon as this news was received the Japanese started to plan their demise as they would without doubt have been a major thorn in the side of their invading fleets. To this end we only need to think back to how determined we were when it came to sinking the Bismark. The Japanese no doubt went about this planning with the self same vigour and unfortunately with the same effects. Would the out dated aircraft based at Singapore been a threat to the superior Zero aircraft they had at their disposal to deal with any possibility of air cover? It is academic and those Singapore based aircraft had their own problems to deal with in the coming days.
I guess we have drifted off topic but it is all within the time period of Pearl harbour and I guess we also learned a very cruel lesson regarding the use of aircraft against warships.
During the time period under discussion....were not the Germans and the Japanese also reading some of the coded radio communications of both the British and the Americans? Suggesting it was the public announcements alone that guided Axis conduct at this point in the War is a bit over simplified.
Add to the communications intercepts....the Axis also had a very effective intelligence gathering effort in operation. The Japanese very definitely were successful in their clandestine efforts.
A bit of study on Ultra/Magic and the background to failures in both analysing and disseminating the valuable information gleaned from that and related efforts will show there is far more to the story than most folks understand today.
Layton's book...."I was there.." has a good summary of events that led up to Pearl Harbor and the tragic results it had for the American Military. There is far more to the concern by FDR and others in the US Leadership about Germany and the Atlantic and the lack of understanding of what their decisions re that concern than what the effect was on the situation in the Pacific. Add in the gross unpreparedness of the American Military (and government in general) for a two ocean War....and two "front" War...and it comes as no surprise how Pearl Harbor, Wake, Guam, Singapore, The Philippines, and Hong Kong all came to be lost so quickly.
Right up to Pearl Harbor....it was thought the focus of the Japanese attacks would be to the North....not the South. The Japanese were very closely watching the Germans and Russians trying to figure out how that would work out....and the Americans were focused upon that and not what the Trade Sanctions were doing to Japan. The Sanctions were viewed as being a way to "pressure" Japan....and not an attempt to force them into submission as evidenced by their being called "Sanctions" and not an "Embargo". An embargo would have been considered an act of War....not mere diplomacy.
Add to the communications intercepts....the Axis also had a very effective intelligence gathering effort in operation. The Japanese very definitely were successful in their clandestine efforts.
A bit of study on Ultra/Magic and the background to failures in both analysing and disseminating the valuable information gleaned from that and related efforts will show there is far more to the story than most folks understand today.
Layton's book...."I was there.." has a good summary of events that led up to Pearl Harbor and the tragic results it had for the American Military. There is far more to the concern by FDR and others in the US Leadership about Germany and the Atlantic and the lack of understanding of what their decisions re that concern than what the effect was on the situation in the Pacific. Add in the gross unpreparedness of the American Military (and government in general) for a two ocean War....and two "front" War...and it comes as no surprise how Pearl Harbor, Wake, Guam, Singapore, The Philippines, and Hong Kong all came to be lost so quickly.
Right up to Pearl Harbor....it was thought the focus of the Japanese attacks would be to the North....not the South. The Japanese were very closely watching the Germans and Russians trying to figure out how that would work out....and the Americans were focused upon that and not what the Trade Sanctions were doing to Japan. The Sanctions were viewed as being a way to "pressure" Japan....and not an attempt to force them into submission as evidenced by their being called "Sanctions" and not an "Embargo". An embargo would have been considered an act of War....not mere diplomacy.
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Pearl Harbour sealed the fate of the Japanese (the fate of the Germans was sealed in June 1941). One of the primary responses to PH from the Americans being to commence a construction programme to replace their 20 knot capital ships with 30 knot capital ships.
Churchill was certainly cautious, see delays of invasion of Europe and the preparation required.
As per previous posts ad infinitum, Adolf didn't need to invade Britain when his U-boats could have starved us into submission; but Adolf's eyes were looking eastwards.
Churchill was certainly cautious, see delays of invasion of Europe and the preparation required.
As per previous posts ad infinitum, Adolf didn't need to invade Britain when his U-boats could have starved us into submission; but Adolf's eyes were looking eastwards.
Gentleman Aviator
And of course one survivor of the attack on Pearl was the cruiser USS Phoenix (ironic name.....). She also survived the war and - as happens with such ships - was sold on......
In 1982, she was still with her post-war purchaser - Armada de la Republica Argentina - who had renamed her .... General Belgrano ....
In 1982, she was still with her post-war purchaser - Armada de la Republica Argentina - who had renamed her .... General Belgrano ....
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During the time period under discussion....were not the Germans and the Japanese also reading some of the coded radio communications of both the British and the Americans? Suggesting it was the public announcements alone that guided Axis conduct at this point in the War is a bit over simplified.
I understand completely what you are saying and totally agree with the points you raise
but......
Hopefully I am not being over simplistic when I state that at the beginning of November 1941 our Prime Minister goes public and informs the World that one of our most powerful battleships along with her battlegroup is deploying to Singapore!! Not the Far East but the name of a country. I accept what you say about codes and that is what intelligence services are paid to do.
I tend to get frustrated when folks try telling me what I may or may not have said and hopefully at NO STAGE have I hinted at or implied that it was quote:
'Public announcements alone that guided Axis Conduct'.
Germany had an extremely efficient intelligence service and to suggest otherwise would be just plain wrong.
I am however quite clearly suggesting that to tell your enemy that on such and such a date you are deploying your most powerful asset to a particular location is in my opinion irresponsible and if it were Private Prune of the 77th Light Infantry that had wrote to the News Of the World and given out this information then I am guessing he would very quickly be shovelling coal from one side of a drill square to the other!
My thoughts are that the Prince of Wales would not have survived in that area even if Winston Churchill had kept quiet, she was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Aircraft that were allocated for the attack on Singapore were also either standing by, or deployed to sink that ship and without large numbers of aircraft then hopefully we all might agree that she was a target waiting to be sunk.
In defence of Winston Churchill
At the time of this deployment we were not at war with Japan.
He did not know that Japan would be invading Singapore, nor would he know the dates of this attack, but I guess this just highlights the need to keep military movements secret.
But what was to stop Germany from positioning some of her U-Boats to attack these ships (She had an excellent destroyer screen that would no doubt deter that type of attack)
Please do not think I am having a go at you, as that is not the case and I enjoy these excellent discussions.
Regards
John from a cold, wet, damp and dingy Torquay by the Sea
Adolf didn't need to invade Britain when his U-boats could have starved us into submission