SARH
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Yes, it would be mad indeed to hire Crab, a highly experienced Sea King SAR training captain who knows his stuff and is not afraid to speak his mind.
It would be better, by far, to have a "yes-man" in your Ops/Training department when it comes to a fight with management/bean counters over budget, training hours etc.
It would be better, by far, to have a "yes-man" in your Ops/Training department when it comes to a fight with management/bean counters over budget, training hours etc.
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"a highly experienced Sea King SAR training captain who knows his stuff and is not afraid to speak his mind"
....is how somebody might be described by someone who agrees with him.
Think how he might be described by somebody who doesn't...
It's a bit like the whole freedom fighter vs terrorist thing.
and yes, I am well aware that the same applies to me too.
....is how somebody might be described by someone who agrees with him.
Think how he might be described by somebody who doesn't...
It's a bit like the whole freedom fighter vs terrorist thing.
and yes, I am well aware that the same applies to me too.
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I do hope I'm on the interview panel when Crab@ applies...
Interesting how you have all jumped onto the bandwagon that SARowl's comment above implied that he would not offer him a job....
Re-read it without that prejudice and it might just mean that he too sees the worth of such an individual in the future of SAR & would want him on the team.
Of course it may not but lets not all immediately jump to conlusions - thats what gives this site a bad reputation.
Regards,
SW
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Reference Material
Far be it from me to disuade other members from slagging each other off in this forum... (Toursit Vs Crab?!)
But should anyone wish to learn a little here is the reference for JWP 3-66 "Joint Personnel Recovery". For all those of you stuck in CSAR terminology this should bring you up to speed from being about 5 years out of date.
http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/DD9DD...DCDCIMAPPS.pdf
Outcome; the RAF SAR Force and 771 NAS have never practised CR or CSAR!
They practiced JPR, most notably SAR and DSAR.
CSAR is the preserve of dedicated air assets rescuing isolated and trained military members from hostile scenarios...
Responses welcomed; if you're looking to get a rise though I'd "scan whilst track" elsewhere - I'm Navy who married a Crab.
But should anyone wish to learn a little here is the reference for JWP 3-66 "Joint Personnel Recovery". For all those of you stuck in CSAR terminology this should bring you up to speed from being about 5 years out of date.
http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/DD9DD...DCDCIMAPPS.pdf
Outcome; the RAF SAR Force and 771 NAS have never practised CR or CSAR!
They practiced JPR, most notably SAR and DSAR.
CSAR is the preserve of dedicated air assets rescuing isolated and trained military members from hostile scenarios...
Responses welcomed; if you're looking to get a rise though I'd "scan whilst track" elsewhere - I'm Navy who married a Crab.
Quote:
'Responses welcomed; if you're looking to get a rise though I'd "scan whilst track" elsewhere - I'm Navy who married a Crab'.
AvWO - That's sweet, it's nice to finally hear about a light blue and dark bloke who get along!
Interestingly (or not!), 28(AC) Sqn worked up to FOC for JPR with the Merlin
Mk 3, training a dedicated JPR Flight and associated ground party personnel who consisted of some of the more capable Rock Ape types. Shame the funding got pulled 'cos the cab was well suited to the role.
Cue predictable anti-Merlin banter.
'Responses welcomed; if you're looking to get a rise though I'd "scan whilst track" elsewhere - I'm Navy who married a Crab'.
AvWO - That's sweet, it's nice to finally hear about a light blue and dark bloke who get along!
Interestingly (or not!), 28(AC) Sqn worked up to FOC for JPR with the Merlin
Mk 3, training a dedicated JPR Flight and associated ground party personnel who consisted of some of the more capable Rock Ape types. Shame the funding got pulled 'cos the cab was well suited to the role.
Cue predictable anti-Merlin banter.
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Tourist, Yes, I admit it! I am "somebody who agrees with him" - but for some of the time only! My SAR time was on Whirlwinds and Wessex and, mostly, I'm so out of date about UK SAR that I have no knowledge of the issues you, he or many others on this forum are discussing.
I do, however, have more recent experience of recruiting pilots and the post I responded to struck me as being a bit witless and immature, and probably written as hastily as was my response to it. I think an interview board's "due diligence" on a candidate - before he even gets an interview - would extend rather beyond what he writes on PPruNe!
Spanish Waltzer. Once again, I hold my hand up and admit that I took the negative spin on what SARowl wrote, without thinking it through as you have done. However, on further reflection, I do think I was right!
Perhaps he could enlighten us!
I do, however, have more recent experience of recruiting pilots and the post I responded to struck me as being a bit witless and immature, and probably written as hastily as was my response to it. I think an interview board's "due diligence" on a candidate - before he even gets an interview - would extend rather beyond what he writes on PPruNe!
Spanish Waltzer. Once again, I hold my hand up and admit that I took the negative spin on what SARowl wrote, without thinking it through as you have done. However, on further reflection, I do think I was right!
Perhaps he could enlighten us!
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AvWO
They can play with the terminology all they want, but there is still SAR and CSAR and most people know what the difference is.
Our little attempt at CSAR was never the most convincing thing that I have been involved in. We should have copied the USMC TRAP stuff instead.
llamaman
No anti Merlin banter, I agree it is an ideal cab for the job.
I remember the first JPR exercise they got involved in (Autumn 2004?) as part of a big funny war the RAF was having out of St Mawgan.
Their support/kit was in a different league. I vividly remember them in the pussers tent printing their maps from a colour printer! I went over to have a look at this modern tech, only to be told that the map was just a backup, the moving map would be doing the work.
My crumpled old fabloned map never seemed the same again.
There were Baggers and E3 boys playing as well as blue forces though the baggers never seemed to be able to be airborne with fuel when we needed them.
We were leading the package of LH/SH including both Seaking and Merlin.
As we headed heroically home at Vmax after successfully finding our downed chap on Dartmoor, I had the slight embarassment of the Merlins asking "do you mind awfully if we accelerate 50kts or so and use our speed as defense rather than you guys?"
"Erm, ok..." says me.
I then had a massive birdstrike (20+ little birds)as I crossed St Mawgans fence, and St Mawgan ATC told me to "Stby" on receipt of my PAN.
I do also, however, remember the "get to know each other" capabilities brief where a very self chuffed Rock stood up and told us for 10mins about all the special training that his boys had done to be capable of the task of ground force. The Royal Marine then stood up and said "all RM are fully capable of this task from basic training" and sat down.
It got a good laugh.
At the time, the RAF SH boys were not allowed to do low NVG routes at night unless daylight recced before in daylight which was a bit gay. I assume that has now changed?
Another thing that I took away from that exercise was how unimpressive both the AEW assets were considering how we are all led to believe that rotor blades show up like a dogs danglys.
They had our timings and routes plus freedom to position as they wished, but both totally failed to see us at all except when the whole package did a bit of a celebratory bunt over some 200ft powerlines on the way back just before St Mawgan. For real we would have gone underneath.
They can play with the terminology all they want, but there is still SAR and CSAR and most people know what the difference is.
Our little attempt at CSAR was never the most convincing thing that I have been involved in. We should have copied the USMC TRAP stuff instead.
llamaman
No anti Merlin banter, I agree it is an ideal cab for the job.
I remember the first JPR exercise they got involved in (Autumn 2004?) as part of a big funny war the RAF was having out of St Mawgan.
Their support/kit was in a different league. I vividly remember them in the pussers tent printing their maps from a colour printer! I went over to have a look at this modern tech, only to be told that the map was just a backup, the moving map would be doing the work.
My crumpled old fabloned map never seemed the same again.
There were Baggers and E3 boys playing as well as blue forces though the baggers never seemed to be able to be airborne with fuel when we needed them.
We were leading the package of LH/SH including both Seaking and Merlin.
As we headed heroically home at Vmax after successfully finding our downed chap on Dartmoor, I had the slight embarassment of the Merlins asking "do you mind awfully if we accelerate 50kts or so and use our speed as defense rather than you guys?"
"Erm, ok..." says me.
I then had a massive birdstrike (20+ little birds)as I crossed St Mawgans fence, and St Mawgan ATC told me to "Stby" on receipt of my PAN.
I do also, however, remember the "get to know each other" capabilities brief where a very self chuffed Rock stood up and told us for 10mins about all the special training that his boys had done to be capable of the task of ground force. The Royal Marine then stood up and said "all RM are fully capable of this task from basic training" and sat down.
It got a good laugh.
At the time, the RAF SH boys were not allowed to do low NVG routes at night unless daylight recced before in daylight which was a bit gay. I assume that has now changed?
Another thing that I took away from that exercise was how unimpressive both the AEW assets were considering how we are all led to believe that rotor blades show up like a dogs danglys.
They had our timings and routes plus freedom to position as they wished, but both totally failed to see us at all except when the whole package did a bit of a celebratory bunt over some 200ft powerlines on the way back just before St Mawgan. For real we would have gone underneath.
At the time, the RAF SH boys were not allowed to do low NVG routes at night unless daylight recced before in daylight which was a bit gay. I assume that has now changed?
The obstacle plane value has recently moved up from 200' to 300' because there are so many unmarked/un-notamed obstacles in the UK.
The CAT 2 NVG we used to teach at Middle Wallop was down to GL and that always required a day recce - so it seems the RAF and the AAC have the same idea.
Gay? no! Professional? we like to think so
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That is all very well, but you need the training value.
Perhaps you should have someone else do the recce, because otherwise it does not test/train your ability to nvg nav at low level, just tests your memory.
All training has risk, but sometimes the reward is worth it.
Perhaps you should have someone else do the recce, because otherwise it does not test/train your ability to nvg nav at low level, just tests your memory.
All training has risk, but sometimes the reward is worth it.
Perhaps you should have someone else do the recce
What do the RN do about NVG recces?
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
yes, that is exactly what happens.
What do the RN do about NVG recces?
What do the RN do about NVG recces?
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Not sure nowadays, not doing it at the moment, but probably the same as you since everything seems to be going to the "safest" common denominator in this jointery fad.
We used to just be there and cope.
SFFP
"Cowboy" is one way of looking at it, we found that it focussed the mind on looking out for stuff.
"Train as you fight" is a mantra of many of the worlds "professional" forces, along with "train hard, fight easy"
We used to just be there and cope.
SFFP
"Cowboy" is one way of looking at it, we found that it focussed the mind on looking out for stuff.
"Train as you fight" is a mantra of many of the worlds "professional" forces, along with "train hard, fight easy"
Last edited by Tourist; 14th Dec 2011 at 21:44.
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Retracted, with apologies.
My intention was to make the point that those in glass houses should not throw stones, however my choice of example was badly chosen and I have caused offense rather than debate which was not my intention.
Again, apologies.
My intention was to make the point that those in glass houses should not throw stones, however my choice of example was badly chosen and I have caused offense rather than debate which was not my intention.
Again, apologies.
Last edited by Tourist; 14th Dec 2011 at 21:47.