Scottish Independence
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Pontius, you are still thinking in old fashioned terms.
The costs incurred by an overseas presence, like the UK currently has, do not need to be part of the Democratic Peoples Republic of Jockistan.
Remember all the people who said we couldn't not have a new MPA, or Harriers or Soldiers in Germany or Aircraft Carriers?
New Caledonia (2016) Ltd will manage fine by running the country like a business, not like a football club where you spend the money and then wonder where it will come from.
Whatever else he is, Wee Eck is not daft. Scotland has no need for Trident, but that's not to say that the way of doing things would rule out allowing the RN to keep it in Scotland, at a price of course. Can you really see England not using Trident to stop something in ten years from now that they would use it to stop today?
Trident is a deterrent, but it will deter anyone from attacking Scotland whether it is ours or not. We are (physically) too close to England for Westminster to ignore a threat to us.
I don't see them ever using it, so why keep paying for it?
The costs incurred by an overseas presence, like the UK currently has, do not need to be part of the Democratic Peoples Republic of Jockistan.
Remember all the people who said we couldn't not have a new MPA, or Harriers or Soldiers in Germany or Aircraft Carriers?
New Caledonia (2016) Ltd will manage fine by running the country like a business, not like a football club where you spend the money and then wonder where it will come from.
Whatever else he is, Wee Eck is not daft. Scotland has no need for Trident, but that's not to say that the way of doing things would rule out allowing the RN to keep it in Scotland, at a price of course. Can you really see England not using Trident to stop something in ten years from now that they would use it to stop today?
Trident is a deterrent, but it will deter anyone from attacking Scotland whether it is ours or not. We are (physically) too close to England for Westminster to ignore a threat to us.
I don't see them ever using it, so why keep paying for it?
Indeed, Sempre.
That's sort of what I was saying a while back. I would think that each soldier would have to be transferred from the British Army to the Scottish Republican Army - presumably voluntarily. Maybe resign from one and then join the other. Or, will foreign nationals find themselves booted out of the British Army as not eligible to serve as regulars?
Either way, I'm not sure anyone can just transfer entire regiments from one nation to another, lock, stock and barrel.
Perhaps Alex is expecting that the UK is going to bend over backwards to give the best possible deal in all respects and help fill in all the gaps when a very small country finds it actually can't fund pensions, forces, police, NHS, free unis, etc.
That's sort of what I was saying a while back. I would think that each soldier would have to be transferred from the British Army to the Scottish Republican Army - presumably voluntarily. Maybe resign from one and then join the other. Or, will foreign nationals find themselves booted out of the British Army as not eligible to serve as regulars?
Either way, I'm not sure anyone can just transfer entire regiments from one nation to another, lock, stock and barrel.
Perhaps Alex is expecting that the UK is going to bend over backwards to give the best possible deal in all respects and help fill in all the gaps when a very small country finds it actually can't fund pensions, forces, police, NHS, free unis, etc.
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It seems quite straightforward to me in that if the result of the Referendum is as the Leader of the SNP hopes (and Scotland secedes from the Union and becomes Independent) then all Scottish Regiments should cease to exist in the British Army. Personnel from those Units and all Scottish Personnel in the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force should be offered the opportunity to transfer to fledgeling Scottish Units or discharge from the UK Forces.
The composition of the Armed Forces which the new Scottish Government will require are of course a matter that the new Scottish Government will have to address.
The composition of the Armed Forces which the new Scottish Government will require are of course a matter that the new Scottish Government will have to address.
That's some serious xenophobia bordering on racism there Cazatou.
What about all those Scottish personnel who are married to or have a parent who is English? Are you going to banish them from your "pure" UK armed forces too?
What about all those Scottish personnel who are married to or have a parent who is English? Are you going to banish them from your "pure" UK armed forces too?
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Courtney Mil
I agree but only if they can live up to the accolade that Field Marshall The Viscount Slim gave to the 1/6th Gurkha Rifles:-
The Almighty created in the Gurkha an ideal infantryman, indeed an ideal Rifleman, skilled in field-craft, intensely proud of his military record and unswervingly loyal. Add to that his honesty in word and deed, his parade perfection and his unquenchable cheerfulness, then service with the Gurkha is for any soldier an immense satisfaction. The Gurkha expects from his officers a standard as high as his own.
I agree but only if they can live up to the accolade that Field Marshall The Viscount Slim gave to the 1/6th Gurkha Rifles:-
The Almighty created in the Gurkha an ideal infantryman, indeed an ideal Rifleman, skilled in field-craft, intensely proud of his military record and unswervingly loyal. Add to that his honesty in word and deed, his parade perfection and his unquenchable cheerfulness, then service with the Gurkha is for any soldier an immense satisfaction. The Gurkha expects from his officers a standard as high as his own.
Stuff,
That's a good point, but I think we have to remember that the same rules will have to apply to indepentent Scots as would to any other foreign nationals. Apart from exchanges, we don't tend to employ people from other countries in our armed forces. Of course, if one can prove citizenship then that may open the door. Ultimately, though, those people would have to choose which nationality they wanted to adopt?
The biggest issue is that they can't have it both ways.
Caz,
That's good. And aren't the G-men just that?
That's a good point, but I think we have to remember that the same rules will have to apply to indepentent Scots as would to any other foreign nationals. Apart from exchanges, we don't tend to employ people from other countries in our armed forces. Of course, if one can prove citizenship then that may open the door. Ultimately, though, those people would have to choose which nationality they wanted to adopt?
The biggest issue is that they can't have it both ways.
Caz,
That's good. And aren't the G-men just that?
Apart from exchanges, we don't tend to employ people from other countries in our armed forces.
Made life quite interesting when one got posted to Jags and had issues when he needed access to documents that were PM Secret UK eyes only :P
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Stuff
It looks like Salmond considers that they don't much care about Scotland, so they shouldn't be taken into account! 
In other words, Scots living south of the boarder don't matter to him! Maybe they will become English on succession. If so, why should they travel back north to form his armed forces?
What about all those Scottish personnel who are married to or have a parent who is English? Are you going to banish them from your "pure" UK armed forces too?
Salmond 25 Jan 12, "The people who care most about Scotland -- that is the people who live, work and bring up their families in Scotland -- should be the ones taking the decision about our nation's future."
Yes, Stuff. I was involved in that and it was a real struggle to get exceptions for them even to be in the RAF. I do recall the Jag problem. Of course, one could argue that if it's that hard to get the Government to allow Kiwis (that have mostly been on our side) in, what's it going to be like trying to allow Scots in (who keep banging on about fighting us all the time)? Flower of Scotland springs to mind.
Apart from exchanges, we don't tend to employ people from other countries in our armed forces
Does anyone have a figure for how many people currently in the UK forces are Scottish?
There must be a DASA nerd that collates the data and could tell us. Their website only lists UK/Irish/Commonwealth/Nepalese/Other UKDS 2010 - Chapter 2 - Personnel
There must be a DASA nerd that collates the data and could tell us. Their website only lists UK/Irish/Commonwealth/Nepalese/Other UKDS 2010 - Chapter 2 - Personnel
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Stuff
Re Xenophobia
I am retired but in my 30+ years of service I visited a lot of places:-
Anguilla / Bahrain / Canada / Denmark / Estonia / Finland/Gambia/ Holland/Iran/Jamaica/ Kenya/ Luxembourg/ Malta/ Norway/Oman/Portugal/Qatar/Rhodesia/Sweden/ Trinidad/USSR/Vagar/Wales/ (I missed out on Xanadu)/Yugoslavia/Zambia.
That, of course, is only a small sample
PS The one I will treasure was the visit to Moscow during the "Cold War".
Re Xenophobia
I am retired but in my 30+ years of service I visited a lot of places:-
Anguilla / Bahrain / Canada / Denmark / Estonia / Finland/Gambia/ Holland/Iran/Jamaica/ Kenya/ Luxembourg/ Malta/ Norway/Oman/Portugal/Qatar/Rhodesia/Sweden/ Trinidad/USSR/Vagar/Wales/ (I missed out on Xanadu)/Yugoslavia/Zambia.
That, of course, is only a small sample
PS The one I will treasure was the visit to Moscow during the "Cold War".
Last edited by cazatou; 26th Jan 2012 at 19:52.
Your black and white, "all Scottish people must go home or be fired" is still xenophobic, no matter how good a travel agent you had.
These personnel have sworn an oath to the monarch and served (many with distinction) until now. You seem to preclude any sort of arrangement akin to grandfather rights of service or a citizenship deal which may allow them to continue to serve.
These personnel have sworn an oath to the monarch and served (many with distinction) until now. You seem to preclude any sort of arrangement akin to grandfather rights of service or a citizenship deal which may allow them to continue to serve.
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Citizens of Commonwealth members are welcome to serve in the UK armed forces. That will be the simple get out clause, there will be no need (indeed no benefit) in repatriating men and women who volunteered to serve their country, to suggest otherwise is crass.
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".... all Scottish Regiments should cease to exist in the British Army. Personnel from those Units and all Scottish Personnel in the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force should be offered the opportunity to transfer to fledgeling Scottish Units or discharge from the UK Forces"
Really Cazatou! Because overnight the defence manning requirement to meet the UK's (remaining elements) defence comitments and intentions simply reduces because Scotland goes independent! Really! Never though that Scotalnd figured so prominently in the UK's aspirations on the world stage and in determining our defence manning. Maybee we need Scotland more than somone is letting on!
As an alternative vision, how about post independence, Scots personnel would be made an offer to remain in the UK forces because they are needed in order to project the same capability as they were doing the day before Scottish independence was declared. It is not beyound the wit of man, given that Scotland would remain a Commenwealth country, and if we are honest our closest ally, that new legislation could be framed. Perhaps the true meaning of special relationship not like the phoney one oft cited by press and politicians on change of government. The nature of the Union is changing, Scottish independence or not, so we need to get used to it.
Really Cazatou! Because overnight the defence manning requirement to meet the UK's (remaining elements) defence comitments and intentions simply reduces because Scotland goes independent! Really! Never though that Scotalnd figured so prominently in the UK's aspirations on the world stage and in determining our defence manning. Maybee we need Scotland more than somone is letting on!
As an alternative vision, how about post independence, Scots personnel would be made an offer to remain in the UK forces because they are needed in order to project the same capability as they were doing the day before Scottish independence was declared. It is not beyound the wit of man, given that Scotland would remain a Commenwealth country, and if we are honest our closest ally, that new legislation could be framed. Perhaps the true meaning of special relationship not like the phoney one oft cited by press and politicians on change of government. The nature of the Union is changing, Scottish independence or not, so we need to get used to it.
When Ian Smith announced the Unilateral Declaration of Independence the only reaction from the British government I heard of was that RRhAF students at Valley and Chivenor were suspended from the course and sent back home. It did not make any difference to the rest of us; we weren't even asked.