Did the Starfighter ever shoot anything down?
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Did the Starfighter ever shoot anything down?
The US Zippers? No, I don't think so, despite some 104Cs serving in SEA.
Dutch? Not as far as I know.
The Japanese 104J? Nope.
Italians (zippy 104S) Nope
All those 104Gs in Germany? I don't think so.
Canadians? Nope.
Norwegians? ermm, nope
Turks and Greeks. A possibility???
Taiwanese? Hard to tell really.
Jordan.......?
Belgians? Come on!
Pakistan? Could be. not sure.
All that good work by Lockheeds and 'Kelly' Johnson brought them a Collier trophy and of course led to the U-2. Top marks to the Skunk works, as always.
But did all those thousands of 104s really enter/ leave service without a kill?
Standing by to be corrected!
Dutch? Not as far as I know.
The Japanese 104J? Nope.
Italians (zippy 104S) Nope
All those 104Gs in Germany? I don't think so.
Canadians? Nope.
Norwegians? ermm, nope
Turks and Greeks. A possibility???
Taiwanese? Hard to tell really.
Jordan.......?
Belgians? Come on!
Pakistan? Could be. not sure.
All that good work by Lockheeds and 'Kelly' Johnson brought them a Collier trophy and of course led to the U-2. Top marks to the Skunk works, as always.
But did all those thousands of 104s really enter/ leave service without a kill?
Standing by to be corrected!
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STARFIGHTER action
From Wiki;
Lockheed F-104 Starfighter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
USAF F-104Cs saw service during the Vietnam War, and F-104A aircraft were deployed by Pakistan briefly during the Indo-Pakistani wars. Republic of China Air Force (Taiwan) F-104s also engaged the People's Liberation Army Air Force (mainland China) over the disputed island of Kinmen.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Too lazy even to check Wiki? 
ndia-Pakistan Wars
Main articles: Indo-Pakistani wars and conflicts and Aerial warfare in 1965 India Pakistan War
At dawn on 6 September 1965, Flight Lieutenant Aftab Alam Khan in an F-104 claimed a Dassault Mystère IV destroyed over West Pakistan and another damaged, marking the start of aerial combat in the Indo-Pakistani War of 1965. It is claimed as the first combat kill by any Mach 2 aircraft, and the first missile kill for the Pakistan Air Force. Indian sources dispute this claim.[19][page needed] The PAF lost one F-104 Starfighter during the 1965 operations, scoring two kills in return. However, one of the F-104 Starfighter's victims was a Breguet Alize aircraft which belonged to the Indian Navy, which was shot down when a Starfighter was returning home from an aborted mission.[20]
The Starfighter was also instrumental in intercepting an Indian Air Force Folland Gnat earlier, on 3 September 1965. F-104s were vectored to intercept the Gnat flying over Pakistan, returning to its home base. The F-104s, closing in at supersonic speed, caused the Gnat pilot to lower the undercarriage and land at a nearby disused Pakistani airfield to surrender. The Indian AF claims Squadron Leader Brij Pal Singh (who later rose to be an Air Marshal) made a navigation error that led him to land on the Pakistani airstrip. Singh was taken as a POW and later released.[20] The IAF Gnat is now displayed at the PAF Museum, Karachi.
During the Indo-Pakistani War of 1971, two F-104As[21][22] were lost in combat against the IAF MiG-21s. One pilot successfully ejected from his F-104 over shark-infested waters, but was never found.[23] According to Western military analysts, the Indian MiG-21s had clearly "won" the much anticipated air combat between the MiG-21 and the F-104 Starfighter.[24][page needed]
[edit]
1967 Taiwan Strait Conflict
On 13 January 1967, four Republic of China (Taiwan) Air Force F-104G aircraft engaged a formation of 12 MiG-19s of the People's Liberation Army Air Force over the disputed island of Kinmen. Maj Shih-Lin Hu and Capt Bei-Puo Shih each shot down one People's Liberation Army Air Force MiG-19. This marked the first F-104 combat victory in the world. However, one F-104 did not return to base and its pilot was claimed as MIA.[25]
ndia-Pakistan Wars
Main articles: Indo-Pakistani wars and conflicts and Aerial warfare in 1965 India Pakistan War
At dawn on 6 September 1965, Flight Lieutenant Aftab Alam Khan in an F-104 claimed a Dassault Mystère IV destroyed over West Pakistan and another damaged, marking the start of aerial combat in the Indo-Pakistani War of 1965. It is claimed as the first combat kill by any Mach 2 aircraft, and the first missile kill for the Pakistan Air Force. Indian sources dispute this claim.[19][page needed] The PAF lost one F-104 Starfighter during the 1965 operations, scoring two kills in return. However, one of the F-104 Starfighter's victims was a Breguet Alize aircraft which belonged to the Indian Navy, which was shot down when a Starfighter was returning home from an aborted mission.[20]
The Starfighter was also instrumental in intercepting an Indian Air Force Folland Gnat earlier, on 3 September 1965. F-104s were vectored to intercept the Gnat flying over Pakistan, returning to its home base. The F-104s, closing in at supersonic speed, caused the Gnat pilot to lower the undercarriage and land at a nearby disused Pakistani airfield to surrender. The Indian AF claims Squadron Leader Brij Pal Singh (who later rose to be an Air Marshal) made a navigation error that led him to land on the Pakistani airstrip. Singh was taken as a POW and later released.[20] The IAF Gnat is now displayed at the PAF Museum, Karachi.
During the Indo-Pakistani War of 1971, two F-104As[21][22] were lost in combat against the IAF MiG-21s. One pilot successfully ejected from his F-104 over shark-infested waters, but was never found.[23] According to Western military analysts, the Indian MiG-21s had clearly "won" the much anticipated air combat between the MiG-21 and the F-104 Starfighter.[24][page needed]
[edit]
1967 Taiwan Strait Conflict
On 13 January 1967, four Republic of China (Taiwan) Air Force F-104G aircraft engaged a formation of 12 MiG-19s of the People's Liberation Army Air Force over the disputed island of Kinmen. Maj Shih-Lin Hu and Capt Bei-Puo Shih each shot down one People's Liberation Army Air Force MiG-19. This marked the first F-104 combat victory in the world. However, one F-104 did not return to base and its pilot was claimed as MIA.[25]
Never mind the Starfighter. Since WWII, has the RAF ever shot anything down? Own goals excluded (of course).
To slightly misquote Churchill: Never, in the history of defence spending, has so much been spent on so few to achieve such little.
To slightly misquote Churchill: Never, in the history of defence spending, has so much been spent on so few to achieve such little.
Never mind the Starfighter. Since WWII, has the RAF ever shot anything down? Own goals excluded (of course).
To slightly misquote Churchill: Never, in the history of defence spending, has so much been spent on so few to achieve such little.
To slightly misquote Churchill: Never, in the history of defence spending, has so much been spent on so few to achieve such little.
Short version...
1948 4x Egyptian aircraft bagged by RAF Spitfires
1949 2x Israeli aircraft bagged by RAF aircraft - all hushed up for politics
1950s A bunch of MiGs bagged in Korea by RAF pilots on US F-86 exchange (RAF fighters not deployed to Korean War)
1960s 1xC130 bagged by a Javelin and a manoeuvre kill against a MiG17 by a Hunter - all hushed up due to politics
1970s - RAF pilot bags Yemeni MiG - hushed for politics (some of the Yemeni stories were only finally revealed in the press in Jun 11 by the Telegraph)
1970s - Lightning allegedly bagged an unmanned Harrier
1982- RAF pilots on exchange with the RN bagged some Argies
1982 - F4 bagged a Jaguar by mistake
1991 - Mudmovers bag a bunch of Iraqi aircraft on the ground - including a JP233 round that bagged a MiG on take off
Nothing in the past 20 years, but then there hasn't been a British air-air kill since then.
LJ
Last edited by Lima Juliet; 7th Oct 2011 at 06:02.
Its a bit difficult to shoot down anything if there are no targets and the ROE prevented shooting down any of the numerous attempted incursions of UK airspace by the Soviets during the cold war. They were all intercepted though.
There were, however, numerous RAF aircrew who lost their lives practicing such things as low level intercepts at night. It might be nice if, during the RN sniping at the RAF, that the snipers took note of the human cost over the years. I also remember that the FAA lost lots of pilots over the years too.
There were, however, numerous RAF aircrew who lost their lives practicing such things as low level intercepts at night. It might be nice if, during the RN sniping at the RAF, that the snipers took note of the human cost over the years. I also remember that the FAA lost lots of pilots over the years too.
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A Luftwaffe pilot who I worked with at TTTE many years ago told me that his USAF Instructor on the F104 had shot down a B52 in a 104 by accident- may be B******T though.
Said USAF Pilot apparently became a Shuttle Astronaut according to him.
Said USAF Pilot apparently became a Shuttle Astronaut according to him.
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ratpackgreenprat
Hasn't it occured to you that spending all that money to maintain a viable defence actually worked in preventing a major conflict.
That is why people like you are still free to post such drivel.
And as for bastardising Churchwellian quotations
Hasn't it occured to you that spending all that money to maintain a viable defence actually worked in preventing a major conflict.
That is why people like you are still free to post such drivel.
And as for bastardising Churchwellian quotations
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Leon and others,
Oh no, not this one again? RAF kills since WW2? Why so sensitive? Yes, I've heard from well informed historians about the 40s Spitfire kills. After that, the rest are by RAF pilots serving in others' aircraft, or own goals. The ones 'hushed up by politics' - go on, prove them.
That results in a pretty low total. Compared to say, for instance, the Fleet Air Arm, not many really. The main reason - most of the wars we have got involved in since WW2 have been in places that the RAF fighters have not been able to get to for some time.
Why can't we agree - the definition of an 'RAF' kill is an RAF aircraft, pilot of any stripe or uniform (after all, we don't try to divide up Battle of Britain kills by pilot service, do we?) under RAF command shooting down an enemy aircraft.
I know Dave Morgan well, and he would be the last person in the world to claim his Falklands kills as 'RAF'.
Izod tester, I know about the 'human cost'. Slightly miffed you chose to bring that one up that way. I'm not 'sniping' - as ever, I'm trying to stay with the facts. If you want to know what does get me seeing red, it's when senior RAF officers claim on TV that the RAF has shot down aircraft when they haven't.
There were plenty of targets in Korea and the Falklands - and the ROE let the FAA shoot them down. Just because the RAF wasn't there doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Best Regards as ever,
Engines
Oh no, not this one again? RAF kills since WW2? Why so sensitive? Yes, I've heard from well informed historians about the 40s Spitfire kills. After that, the rest are by RAF pilots serving in others' aircraft, or own goals. The ones 'hushed up by politics' - go on, prove them.
That results in a pretty low total. Compared to say, for instance, the Fleet Air Arm, not many really. The main reason - most of the wars we have got involved in since WW2 have been in places that the RAF fighters have not been able to get to for some time.
Why can't we agree - the definition of an 'RAF' kill is an RAF aircraft, pilot of any stripe or uniform (after all, we don't try to divide up Battle of Britain kills by pilot service, do we?) under RAF command shooting down an enemy aircraft.
I know Dave Morgan well, and he would be the last person in the world to claim his Falklands kills as 'RAF'.
Izod tester, I know about the 'human cost'. Slightly miffed you chose to bring that one up that way. I'm not 'sniping' - as ever, I'm trying to stay with the facts. If you want to know what does get me seeing red, it's when senior RAF officers claim on TV that the RAF has shot down aircraft when they haven't.
There were plenty of targets in Korea and the Falklands - and the ROE let the FAA shoot them down. Just because the RAF wasn't there doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Best Regards as ever,
Engines
ratpackgreenslug,
We haven't fired a SLBM at a genuine target since they came into service - I guess that means your quote:
"Never, in the history of defence spending, has so much been spent on so few to achieve such little."
applies equally to the money spent on the "few" boats of the SSBN fleet.
Are you suggesting we scrap the SSBNs, or just fire a few missiles at someone to make the money spent so far more appear more worthwhile?
There is more to the RN than SSBNs, and more to the RAF than just air defence, and just because neither have been used extensively it doesn't mean they should be done away with.....and by the way, the RAF air defence assets are being done away with, slice by slice.....and no, I'm not an air defender, nor am I on SSBNs, but that doesn't mean I'm not able to appreciate the role they carry out!!
Tourist - how was Bridget, you lucky sod? I must admit, in my youth, I was more interested in Raquel......
We haven't fired a SLBM at a genuine target since they came into service - I guess that means your quote:
"Never, in the history of defence spending, has so much been spent on so few to achieve such little."
applies equally to the money spent on the "few" boats of the SSBN fleet.
Are you suggesting we scrap the SSBNs, or just fire a few missiles at someone to make the money spent so far more appear more worthwhile?
There is more to the RN than SSBNs, and more to the RAF than just air defence, and just because neither have been used extensively it doesn't mean they should be done away with.....and by the way, the RAF air defence assets are being done away with, slice by slice.....and no, I'm not an air defender, nor am I on SSBNs, but that doesn't mean I'm not able to appreciate the role they carry out!!
Tourist - how was Bridget, you lucky sod? I must admit, in my youth, I was more interested in Raquel......
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LEON.........
This old chestnut has been suggested before, but does anyone have any shred of evidence to support the claim? I flew Javelins with 60 Sqn from 1963 until 1966 and am quite unaware of any engagement of an Indonesian C130 by any of our (or 64 Sqn) aircraft at any time. We were regularly involved in ADIZ scrambles and border patrols over Malaya and Borneo, but never found a target to intercept; the Indonesian ground troops, however, shot down one of their own C130s on the Borneo border. In December 1964 there was an incursion by 2 Hercules dropping paratroops at Labis, Malaya, but we were not scrambled to intercept; it was rumoured that Gombak GCI had detected the incoming, but had not reacted "for sensitive political reasons". It was also rumoured that the Indonesians had launched 3 aircraft but that one was lost, probably having flown into the sea. Suggestions may have been leaked to Djakarta that we had in fact shot this one down. The following night Gombak got quite excited over a possible radar target nd this time I was scrambled, but nothing came of it.
Similarly, had a 20 Sqn Hunter found a Mig I am quite sure we would have heard all about it. These "kills" are simply a fairy tale.
Back to the F104 thread, there was, I believe, a Starfighter that shot itself down in the early days; it apparently accelerated during Vulcan cannon firing trials and caught up with its own shells!
1960s 1xC130 bagged by a Javelin and a manoeuvre kill against a MiG17 by a Hunter - all hushed up due to politics
Similarly, had a 20 Sqn Hunter found a Mig I am quite sure we would have heard all about it. These "kills" are simply a fairy tale.
Back to the F104 thread, there was, I believe, a Starfighter that shot itself down in the early days; it apparently accelerated during Vulcan cannon firing trials and caught up with its own shells!
Last edited by NutherA2; 7th Oct 2011 at 10:16.
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A Luftwaffe pilot who I worked with at TTTE many years ago told me that his USAF Instructor on the F104 had shot down a B52 in a 104 by accident- may be B******T though.
Said USAF Pilot apparently became a Shuttle Astronaut according to him.
Said USAF Pilot apparently became a Shuttle Astronaut according to him.
Perhaps he was referring to this incident?
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Leon
Yes, and I shagged Brigitte Bardot live on stage at the Palladium, but it was hushed up for political reasons.........
Leon
Yes, and I shagged Brigitte Bardot live on stage at the Palladium, but it was hushed up for political reasons.........
"To slightly misquote Churchill: Never, in the history of defence spending, has so much been spent on so few to achieve such little".
Never heard of deterence, then?
Perhaps my 41 years supplying Met. to the RAF were totally wasted.
Never heard of deterence, then?
Perhaps my 41 years supplying Met. to the RAF were totally wasted.
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ORAC. Thanks for posting that info.
In your bottom para it says that the 1967 Taiwan Straits incident was "the first 104 combat victory". So can we discount the 1965 stuff posted above it as 'probable' or disputed?
Is the claim for the two MiG-19s confirmed?
I only posted because I've never read anything, anywhere about the 104 scoring an air to air kill.
Well, unless you count the downing of the XB-70.
NutherA2. I think it was 'Corky' Meyer who shot himself down while testing the Grumman Tiger.
In your bottom para it says that the 1967 Taiwan Straits incident was "the first 104 combat victory". So can we discount the 1965 stuff posted above it as 'probable' or disputed?
Is the claim for the two MiG-19s confirmed?
I only posted because I've never read anything, anywhere about the 104 scoring an air to air kill.
Well, unless you count the downing of the XB-70.
NutherA2. I think it was 'Corky' Meyer who shot himself down while testing the Grumman Tiger.
