The Sun - RAF Fools
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Who's talking about bullying?
If you're on the range and turn round with a loaded weapon during a shoot, expect to get punched immediately by the range supervisor. Not bullying, just immediate discipline.
If you've just ruined over 2 million litres of fuel, caused the Falklands aircraft to go U/S, some requiring engine changes, compromising the defence of the Falklands in the process, made the military look incompetent in the media, it's reasonable to assume you'll incur Seabeafy's displeasure. To be visited upon you by an angry man, no doubt.
If you're on the range and turn round with a loaded weapon during a shoot, expect to get punched immediately by the range supervisor. Not bullying, just immediate discipline.
If you've just ruined over 2 million litres of fuel, caused the Falklands aircraft to go U/S, some requiring engine changes, compromising the defence of the Falklands in the process, made the military look incompetent in the media, it's reasonable to assume you'll incur Seabeafy's displeasure. To be visited upon you by an angry man, no doubt.
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you could actually treat the fuel by converting the glycol into something akin to biodiesel.
You'd have to blend in a matching amount of a long-chain fatty acid (oleic acid or similar), throw in some sodium, heat it and then acid wash it with water to strip out the remaining sodium. You'd then have to dry it with molecular sieves.
The kit to do it can be bought off-the-shelf for making your own biodiesel, but the need to use sodium metal (rather than sodium methoxide) would make the process dodgy unless you were used to handling the stuff. (Sodium is nOT nice) You still probably couldn't use it in an aircraft, but it would at least work as diesel fuel.
You'd have to blend in a matching amount of a long-chain fatty acid (oleic acid or similar), throw in some sodium, heat it and then acid wash it with water to strip out the remaining sodium. You'd then have to dry it with molecular sieves.
The kit to do it can be bought off-the-shelf for making your own biodiesel, but the need to use sodium metal (rather than sodium methoxide) would make the process dodgy unless you were used to handling the stuff. (Sodium is nOT nice) You still probably couldn't use it in an aircraft, but it would at least work as diesel fuel.
James, there are several portable molecular filtration units available that could remove all bar ppm level glycol from kero at relatively low cost (probably abt $100/ton treated on site) However ppm level contamination still precludes the use as aircraft fuel for the reasons I stated above.
M9 (my job involves the investigation and remediation of contaminated oils)
M9 (my job involves the investigation and remediation of contaminated oils)
Reading the Sun's article, it appears to me that it may have been a Konsin-type anti-freeze that was put in the fuel, rather than engine anti-freeze - it's still a monumental cock-up on an epic scale. I wouldn't have thought that the contaminated fuel would be useful for any ground use, let alone being offered to the bennies. It's a long time since I was at MPA, but ISTR that Konsin was kept in a totally different area to where the FSII was stored, it certainly was no where near any aviation fuel installations. Perhaps THS's knowledge is more up-to-date than mine.
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"Does the SAS count?"
OK Karma, if you claim to be Ex SAS, 2 Questions - PM me the answers:-
1. what was the Lt Col in charge of the SAS in 1978 ?
Reason I ask is our house in Bodenham Road, Hereford (I think it was No 45, a 3 story house) was purchased by him in 1978 just prior to my father being sent to Australia.
If you don't know but are "in the know", then you can find out very quickly.
2. Regarding the Iranian Embassy, who was the SAS CT Team soldier was quite short but built like a Brick outhouse (ie very strong and wide) who participated in the Siege Breaking ???? (I have never seen his name published in any media that I have read whereas some of the participants names have been so don't go looking up Wiki).
And NO, I did not serve in the SAS but was present at a closed door briefing on the Iranian Embassy Rescue by him.
My apologise to Mmmmnice and other posters. I will refrain from deviating from Aviation in future.
.
OK Karma, if you claim to be Ex SAS, 2 Questions - PM me the answers:-
1. what was the Lt Col in charge of the SAS in 1978 ?
Reason I ask is our house in Bodenham Road, Hereford (I think it was No 45, a 3 story house) was purchased by him in 1978 just prior to my father being sent to Australia.
If you don't know but are "in the know", then you can find out very quickly.
2. Regarding the Iranian Embassy, who was the SAS CT Team soldier was quite short but built like a Brick outhouse (ie very strong and wide) who participated in the Siege Breaking ???? (I have never seen his name published in any media that I have read whereas some of the participants names have been so don't go looking up Wiki).
And NO, I did not serve in the SAS but was present at a closed door briefing on the Iranian Embassy Rescue by him.
My apologise to Mmmmnice and other posters. I will refrain from deviating from Aviation in future.
.
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SFFP: I can only comment on my experiences. It never happened to me, but I've seen it. Perhaps that's the difference in Services. The RAF has annual GDT for all staff, and that's surely training. I would agree that a training deficiency would be more prevalent in folk who only go on the range once a year.
In the Army, it's a much more common thing to be on a rifle range, and only a few times in your career would it be under instruction (ie basic training, career courses). Turning round with a loaded weapon during a shoot is stupid and very dangerous. In my experience, such behaviour met with a swift corrective boot or fist. Nobody involved, either the range supervisor, or the firer, or anyone else on the range thought it at all unusual or wrong, nor did it ever go any further.
I don't suppose pushing out "knees to chest" in the Sgt Major's office while explaining why you had transgressed is in the relevant discipline publication either, but it makes short work of a disciplinary chat.
All been replaced with AGAI action now in the Army, so granted, things have moved on. I don't imagine the Pet Op involved will get away with an AGAI in this case though.
In the Army, it's a much more common thing to be on a rifle range, and only a few times in your career would it be under instruction (ie basic training, career courses). Turning round with a loaded weapon during a shoot is stupid and very dangerous. In my experience, such behaviour met with a swift corrective boot or fist. Nobody involved, either the range supervisor, or the firer, or anyone else on the range thought it at all unusual or wrong, nor did it ever go any further.
I don't suppose pushing out "knees to chest" in the Sgt Major's office while explaining why you had transgressed is in the relevant discipline publication either, but it makes short work of a disciplinary chat.
All been replaced with AGAI action now in the Army, so granted, things have moved on. I don't imagine the Pet Op involved will get away with an AGAI in this case though.
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Mmmmnice
After reading this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadster280
Who's talking about bullying?
If you're on the range and turn round with a loaded weapon during a shoot, expect to get punched immediately by the range supervisor. Not bullying, just immediate discipline.
Discipline my arse it's assault or what ever the current legal definition makes it. It's an assault carried out by a poor trainer and an even poorer supervisor who clearly has no place on a live range
How could you fail to notice the RAF (and aviation in general) slant to this thread (even forgetting the mention of aviation fuel, MPA, the special AIR service and the paras).
From my green background, it was the 'any bad stuff is assault' that really showed what elite front line war fighters the RAF were
the rocks, paras, SF (ours and other countries) must be filled with poor trainers going by the above post..........
EDITED TO ADD: 500, there are several different SAS units that our fellow poster could belong to/belonged to, so he could have been 21, 22, 23, R or sigs etc (I know I'm using the out of date names here, and 21 and 23 are now reserves or something instead of V, or artists etc), BUT the mention of 49 para always brings a smile to my face, and brings up a mental image of Jim Shortt
After reading this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadster280
Who's talking about bullying?
If you're on the range and turn round with a loaded weapon during a shoot, expect to get punched immediately by the range supervisor. Not bullying, just immediate discipline.
Discipline my arse it's assault or what ever the current legal definition makes it. It's an assault carried out by a poor trainer and an even poorer supervisor who clearly has no place on a live range
How could you fail to notice the RAF (and aviation in general) slant to this thread (even forgetting the mention of aviation fuel, MPA, the special AIR service and the paras).From my green background, it was the 'any bad stuff is assault' that really showed what elite front line war fighters the RAF were
the rocks, paras, SF (ours and other countries) must be filled with poor trainers going by the above post..........
EDITED TO ADD: 500, there are several different SAS units that our fellow poster could belong to/belonged to, so he could have been 21, 22, 23, R or sigs etc (I know I'm using the out of date names here, and 21 and 23 are now reserves or something instead of V, or artists etc), BUT the mention of 49 para always brings a smile to my face, and brings up a mental image of Jim Shortt
Last edited by barnstormer1968; 8th Sep 2011 at 20:59.
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OK Karma, if you claim to be Ex SAS, 2 Questions - PM me the answers:-
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Seldom
Not for the wider RAF no, but for actual combat fighters, yes.
You may find this hard to understand, but the folks who hit me during my military career, only ever did it after I had made repeated or really stupid errors. If I needed to be taught something they would teach me, and spend as long as it took to make me understand what I needed to know. If I did something really silly, then a kick or punch could come my way. It is very worth noting that I could be stood/laid next to the person who had hit me while under fire, and they not only wanted themselves to come out the other side unscathed, but wanted this for me too. Some of these people depended on me to be spot on in a crisis, and me on them in return. I don't ever remember being hit by someone in anger, or of feeling bullied by anyone.
I'm not sure how some RAF SGT hitting an airman for signing out the wrong sized bolt or screw would help, but a swift punch for failing to point out a trip wire or mine is a bit more relevant (even on exercise).
One example that stands out was during chemical warfare training. Whenever I used to open a new plastic packet of gloves, noddy suit or facelet mask etc I always used to rip open the packets with my teeth (only realising I was doing it as I bit the packet open). Clearly this is not big or clever in a chemical rich environment, but I just kept doing it.
One such time I did this, I was rewarded with a swift tap to the nose with a fist, and perhaps oddly to you I never bit open packets again. Maybe its important to differentiate between the above non personal, open to everyone and guidance based system, as opposed to one person singling out one other individual for repeated harassment.
Not for the wider RAF no, but for actual combat fighters, yes.
You may find this hard to understand, but the folks who hit me during my military career, only ever did it after I had made repeated or really stupid errors. If I needed to be taught something they would teach me, and spend as long as it took to make me understand what I needed to know. If I did something really silly, then a kick or punch could come my way. It is very worth noting that I could be stood/laid next to the person who had hit me while under fire, and they not only wanted themselves to come out the other side unscathed, but wanted this for me too. Some of these people depended on me to be spot on in a crisis, and me on them in return. I don't ever remember being hit by someone in anger, or of feeling bullied by anyone.
I'm not sure how some RAF SGT hitting an airman for signing out the wrong sized bolt or screw would help, but a swift punch for failing to point out a trip wire or mine is a bit more relevant (even on exercise).
One example that stands out was during chemical warfare training. Whenever I used to open a new plastic packet of gloves, noddy suit or facelet mask etc I always used to rip open the packets with my teeth (only realising I was doing it as I bit the packet open). Clearly this is not big or clever in a chemical rich environment, but I just kept doing it.
One such time I did this, I was rewarded with a swift tap to the nose with a fist, and perhaps oddly to you I never bit open packets again. Maybe its important to differentiate between the above non personal, open to everyone and guidance based system, as opposed to one person singling out one other individual for repeated harassment.
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Karma,
I really want to hear more from you, but are you sure that answering these questions would breach the Official Secrets Act? Or are you concerned that you may be paid a visit by some large men in suits?
I really want to hear more from you, but are you sure that answering these questions would breach the Official Secrets Act? Or are you concerned that you may be paid a visit by some large men in suits?
Yes James, it could be removed, but only down to ppm levels. Not good enough for Defstan therefore not for aircraft use. Likely will be cheaper to blend it for use as regular kero or into gas oil/fuel oil.
Probably would cause logistical problems in the Falklands storing it long enough to blend away, so suspect it will be shipped out and sold to a trader.
M9 (definitely not SAS
)
Probably would cause logistical problems in the Falklands storing it long enough to blend away, so suspect it will be shipped out and sold to a trader.
M9 (definitely not SAS
)