Rioting E Petition
What is it with some of you? First it was "the blacks" now it's the "unemployed." Put your prejudices to one side and realise that this is a hugely complex issue.
The first person up in front of Highbury magistrates for looting and affray this morning was a 31 year old school teacher.
The first person up in front of Highbury magistrates for looting and affray this morning was a 31 year old school teacher.
The 31 year old referred to above is actually an infant school assistant. Still a respectable position of course, but not the learned scholar which some may take your post to indicate. In other words, not quite that shocking, I saw him on telly as well he sounded not at all the Jimmy Edwards type, more Dizzy Rascal.
FB
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PTT
The "Welfare State" started in the aftermath of World War 2 when Food, Electricity & Gas were in short supply and a large percentage of the Housing Stock had been destroyed or damaged. In addition the Nations medical facilities were overloaded by the dramatic increase in the birth rate on top of the large number of Civilian and Military casualties.
Many Civilian and Service Personnel ( particularly those who had been incarcerated in Japanese Camps in the Far East) returned unable to fend for themselves due to both physical and mental injuries sustained over a 6 year period. There were also a large number of "War Widows" with young children who needed support and shelter.
The "Welfare State" started in the aftermath of World War 2 when Food, Electricity & Gas were in short supply and a large percentage of the Housing Stock had been destroyed or damaged. In addition the Nations medical facilities were overloaded by the dramatic increase in the birth rate on top of the large number of Civilian and Military casualties.
Many Civilian and Service Personnel ( particularly those who had been incarcerated in Japanese Camps in the Far East) returned unable to fend for themselves due to both physical and mental injuries sustained over a 6 year period. There were also a large number of "War Widows" with young children who needed support and shelter.
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Your history isn't going back far enough. The English Poor Laws were codified in the late 1500s/early 1600s and were simply the redistribution of wealth from rich to poor - no different to what happens now, just with less paperwork. Even before that the church did the same, for much the same reason.
Last edited by PTT; 11th Aug 2011 at 10:39.
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PTT you make some interesting points...they remind of my days in the sixth form political debating society. I think you will find that nobody cares in this instance because...
a. The links between social and economic circumstance and these lootings are clearly contrived.
b. We are talking about anarchy and the breakdown of law and order. Once the looters are off the streets (by fair means or foul) the political debate can resume.
Since the BBC/Facebook are now advertising the e petition far and wide, the job here is done. Mods please lock it up (or somebody tell me how to).
PS
Really Annoyed...you are a tiresome little troll. If you read the OP you will see I asked for the indulgence of the Mods because I thought this would be of interest to military Ppruners, many of whom have fought in the cause of freedom, security and democracy. I try to observe the rules and decorum of Pprune, perhaps you could do the same?
a. The links between social and economic circumstance and these lootings are clearly contrived.
b. We are talking about anarchy and the breakdown of law and order. Once the looters are off the streets (by fair means or foul) the political debate can resume.
Since the BBC/Facebook are now advertising the e petition far and wide, the job here is done. Mods please lock it up (or somebody tell me how to).
PS
Really Annoyed...you are a tiresome little troll. If you read the OP you will see I asked for the indulgence of the Mods because I thought this would be of interest to military Ppruners, many of whom have fought in the cause of freedom, security and democracy. I try to observe the rules and decorum of Pprune, perhaps you could do the same?
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I'm choosing not to take your "6th form debating society" comment as an insult 
Au contraire. See "Austerity and Anarchy" by Ponticelli and Voth (you can d/l your own copy for £3):
"Expenditure cuts carry a significant risk of increasing the frequency of riots, anti-government demonstrations, general strikes, political assassinations, and attempts at revolutionary overthrow of the established order. While these are lowprobability events in normal years, they become much more common as austerity measures are implemented. This may act as a potent brake on governments. In line with our results on expenditure, Woo (2003) showed that countries with higher levels of unrest are more indebted. High levels of instability show a particularly clear connection with fiscal consolidation."
That's based on data from 1919 to 2009 across Europe.
Fair means only. Do it by foul means and you sacrifice the very thing you are trying to protect: law and order.
The links between social and economic circumstance and these lootings are clearly contrived.
"Expenditure cuts carry a significant risk of increasing the frequency of riots, anti-government demonstrations, general strikes, political assassinations, and attempts at revolutionary overthrow of the established order. While these are lowprobability events in normal years, they become much more common as austerity measures are implemented. This may act as a potent brake on governments. In line with our results on expenditure, Woo (2003) showed that countries with higher levels of unrest are more indebted. High levels of instability show a particularly clear connection with fiscal consolidation."
That's based on data from 1919 to 2009 across Europe.
We are talking about anarchy and the breakdown of law and order. Once the looters are off the streets (by fair means or foul) the political debate can resume.
Last edited by PTT; 11th Aug 2011 at 11:56.
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Punishment for looters
davejb
5 years hard labour won't do it. What these clowns actually need is six cuts across the ar$e with a cane, Singapore & Malaysia style. It'll never happen of course because it would infringe their 'human' rights and the liberals and tree-huggers would be up in arms. But if it did happen, they'd never do it again!
TM
5 years hard labour won't do it. What these clowns actually need is six cuts across the ar$e with a cane, Singapore & Malaysia style. It'll never happen of course because it would infringe their 'human' rights and the liberals and tree-huggers would be up in arms. But if it did happen, they'd never do it again!
TM
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PTT, I don't know where you read your copy of Ponticelli and Voth's "Austerity and Anarchy" (available free of charge on the internet) but it comes up in Aditya Chakraborty's article in the Guardian. A well researched and learned tome by two social economists but has cod all to do with the criminal behavior of the last few nights.
The solution is more likely if a version of Taff Missed's proposal is applied.
I do not believe the use of the word "riot" in the E- Petition is accurate in this context.
As Chakrabortty notes:
This was purposeless lawlessness. And there’s little point in blaming today’s current crop of politicians, of whichever hue, for that state. This is a deep-seated problem in our society, a failure of families and community and the economy and politics.
London in the early 80s was marked out by a generation of black and Asian politicians who were able to serve as interlocutors for their communities. Bernie Grant, Paul Boateng and others were not Labour frontbenchers and often to the left of Michael Foot and the party leadership: they were able to serve as credible representatives of areas in turmoil. David Lammy is an admirable MP, but he does not have the same heft. Which is partly why this week’s disorder has often seemed so apolitical.
True, it has been apolitical. But what has perhaps frightened most of us has been the casual disdain for common humanity: violence has not been targeted against ‘the establishment’, but against anyone who happens to be in the way, even if they’re an ordinary member of the local community. This was purposeless lawlessness. And there’s little point in blaming today’s current crop of politicians, of whichever hue, for that state. This is a deep-seated problem in our society, a failure of families and community and the economy and politics.
I do not believe the use of the word "riot" in the E- Petition is accurate in this context.
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The Old Fat One (could be me!)
You could delete your opening post, but please give PTT a chance to justify his quote from A and A.
Since the BBC/Facebook are now advertising the e petition far and wide, the job here is done. Mods please lock it up (or somebody tell me how to).
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I got mine here for £3 -> http://www.cepr.org/pubs/new-dps/dpl...?dpno=8513.asp
As the part I quoted states, levels of instability (political or otherwise) increase with the application of austerity measures and the level of indebtedness of the state.
I have now read the Guardian article you quoted, and Chakrabortty doesn't seem to offer any sort of conclusion, just differing points of view (and it is a good article).
Do you really think that a well-adjusted citizen will be the result of such treatment as Taff suggests? Or perhaps the result will be a more resentful and less productive member of society?
As the part I quoted states, levels of instability (political or otherwise) increase with the application of austerity measures and the level of indebtedness of the state.
I have now read the Guardian article you quoted, and Chakrabortty doesn't seem to offer any sort of conclusion, just differing points of view (and it is a good article).
Do you really think that a well-adjusted citizen will be the result of such treatment as Taff suggests? Or perhaps the result will be a more resentful and less productive member of society?
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They can hardly get less productive (except bringing more potential scrotes into the world..and I have an extreme but working solution for that) and yes probably more resentful. They will, however, remember the punishment for their crimes and being on the whole the worst examples of cowards, may not be prepared to "taste" the lash again. One only has to suffer the sight of these morons leaving the courts and mocking and insulting everyone in sight and I start to think that TM's solution is too soft.
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From SOSL
A forum for the professionals who fly the non-civilian hardware, and the backroom boys and girls without whom nothing would leave the ground. Army, Navy and Airforces of the World, all equally welcome here.
There must be a hundred other forums, at least, where this issue, important though it is, is being discussed.
There must be a hundred other forums, at least, where this issue, important though it is, is being discussed.
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There must be a hundred other forums, at least, where this issue, important though it is, is being discussed
professionals who fly the non-civilian hardware, and the backroom boys and girls without whom nothing would leave the ground. Army, Navy and Airforces of the World, all equally welcome here.
I'm not particularly interested in the other forums and like to hear what my peers have to say...although, as has been said, this would probably rest better in Jet Blast.
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It says "Military Aircrew", not "Military Aviation". I don't see any limitations to the subject matter in the forum description, either, only to the membership, and I certainly fall into that category.
ROG
Less productive = counter-productive. They certainly can be that, and likely will.
Either way, removing benefits from those in need of them will exacerbate the situation, not resolve it. That was my original point, and A&A would seem to back that up. This petition is a short-sighted method for getting a short-sighted, reactionary policy briefly into the limelight.
ROG
Less productive = counter-productive. They certainly can be that, and likely will.
Either way, removing benefits from those in need of them will exacerbate the situation, not resolve it. That was my original point, and A&A would seem to back that up. This petition is a short-sighted method for getting a short-sighted, reactionary policy briefly into the limelight.
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Of course the 11 year old girl caught in Nottingham (along with her 14 year old confreres) at 1130pm probably isn't on benefits either.
Look, we're mostly right wing fascists on here (it all depends where you are standing <g>) and fulminating here is just a BP release valve, but if supposedly well educated types like what we is can't make a rational response what hope is there for the UK?
Personally I feel the pendulum has swung way too far towards personal liberty, and this is probably going to kick off a swing that will go too far towards personal liabilty, but we (as a country) should at least TRY to come up with a solution that wouldn't double as a Daily Mail headline.
No point birching etc until you put the mechanism in place and get everyone used to the idea - a punishment that wasn't on the statute books when you did the crime is revenge, and irrational. Now, get it onto the statute books and THEN apply it and you're getting a bit closer (perhaps) to commonsense.
Look, we're mostly right wing fascists on here (it all depends where you are standing <g>) and fulminating here is just a BP release valve, but if supposedly well educated types like what we is can't make a rational response what hope is there for the UK?
Personally I feel the pendulum has swung way too far towards personal liberty, and this is probably going to kick off a swing that will go too far towards personal liabilty, but we (as a country) should at least TRY to come up with a solution that wouldn't double as a Daily Mail headline.
No point birching etc until you put the mechanism in place and get everyone used to the idea - a punishment that wasn't on the statute books when you did the crime is revenge, and irrational. Now, get it onto the statute books and THEN apply it and you're getting a bit closer (perhaps) to commonsense.
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PTT
I think that you must be a relation of someone I went to School with in the early '60s. Every lesson was dissected by him to conform with Marxist Orthodoxy and any evidence that his viewpoint was not correct was derided in a frenzy of personal abuse.
In July 1989 I was fortunate enough to fly the RAF Staff College to Moscow for an exchange visit with the Soviet Air Force Staff College. I was expecting to see a lower standard of living than that pertaining in the UK - but what we saw was a larger number of beggars than I ever saw in third world Countries.
I think that you must be a relation of someone I went to School with in the early '60s. Every lesson was dissected by him to conform with Marxist Orthodoxy and any evidence that his viewpoint was not correct was derided in a frenzy of personal abuse.
In July 1989 I was fortunate enough to fly the RAF Staff College to Moscow for an exchange visit with the Soviet Air Force Staff College. I was expecting to see a lower standard of living than that pertaining in the UK - but what we saw was a larger number of beggars than I ever saw in third world Countries.
More bang for your buck
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Look what I got when I tried to see what the current signature level was, now if I was a cynic.........................
"Sorry, e-petitions is temporarily unavailable.
The e-petitions site is having problems at the moment. We need to temporarily suspend the creation and signing of e-petitions to allow us to make sure everything is working properly for you.
We aim to re-open the e-petitions site by Friday morning (12th August).
We're very sorry for the inconvenience this causes you.
The e-petition entitled “Convicted London rioters should loose all benefits” has now passed the threshold of 100,000 signatures and has been passed to the Backbench Business Committee to consider for debate. It will continue to be available for signature once the site is re-opened."
"Sorry, e-petitions is temporarily unavailable.
The e-petitions site is having problems at the moment. We need to temporarily suspend the creation and signing of e-petitions to allow us to make sure everything is working properly for you.
We aim to re-open the e-petitions site by Friday morning (12th August).
We're very sorry for the inconvenience this causes you.
The e-petition entitled “Convicted London rioters should loose all benefits” has now passed the threshold of 100,000 signatures and has been passed to the Backbench Business Committee to consider for debate. It will continue to be available for signature once the site is re-opened."
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I think that you must be a relation of someone I went to School with in the early '60s. Every lesson was dissected by him to conform with Marxist Orthodoxy and any evidence that his viewpoint was not correct was derided in a frenzy of personal abuse.
I find this comment somewhat puzzling tbh. It appears you are saying that providing actual academic papers on the matter is now dissecting it to conform with my viewpoint, and that pointing out our differing definitions of "welfare state" might be "a frenzy of personal abuse." Feel free to clarify
In July 1989 I was fortunate enough to fly the RAF Staff College to Moscow for an exchange visit with the Soviet Air Force Staff College. I was expecting to see a lower standard of living than that pertaining in the UK - but what we saw was a larger number of beggars than I ever saw in third world Countries.
