Project Sirius - Divisive or what?
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SOSL,
Spec Aircrew clearly only works for, erm, aircrew! What about all the other branches where MS officers could now find themselves on level 9 for a considerable number of years. Hold that thought, maybe NEM will see MS officers chopped at the end of the level 9 year as a new method of outflow!?
Spec Aircrew clearly only works for, erm, aircrew! What about all the other branches where MS officers could now find themselves on level 9 for a considerable number of years. Hold that thought, maybe NEM will see MS officers chopped at the end of the level 9 year as a new method of outflow!?
Last edited by Twon; 2nd Sep 2012 at 19:30.
Part of a big drive that's been going on for many years. It's just that now is not the time for this obviously devisive (as the OP said) 'new' iniciative. It keeps going down hill.
The system will not work in my eyes. Too divisive and there are not enough positions available for the Exec stream to make it all viable. I can see a situation where a so called 'mong' who's happy say in his OC BSW job at RAF Snoring, where manning said he could be for 5 years, being moved on by an Exec stream needing a promotion tick.
It will create a 2 tier air force of haves and have nots. The whole manning system is opaque and the rules seem to change as personalities change.
The pyramid only allows for a few jobs at the top and desk officers should have should have a better system for identifying those people. Reporting officers need to be more realistic and honest when writing reports instead of blowing smoke up people's ar$es. There is too much weak leadership where 'mates' fail to report on their subordinates correctly as they don't want to upset the apple cart or face any conflict - so they usually capitulate.
There are too many people vying for the same top jobs when that prospect is untenable to most. If manning were able to give people realistic career ceilings and guidance - ie, "you are 34, you have not done an op tour, you don't have a Masters, you have not done any professional development and your reports are average - you only have the max reach for Wg Cdr in your time left' then I'm sure that the workplace would develop a much better and more amenable culture. This would, in turn, produce a Royal Air Force that was able to meet outputs without breaking the moral contracts that it has with its people. Fewer people would be gunning for promotion courses and 'one-upmanship' over their peers, and maybe then they might concentrate on their day jobs and managing their personnel.
Still, I'm glad to be leaving it all behind...
It will create a 2 tier air force of haves and have nots. The whole manning system is opaque and the rules seem to change as personalities change.
The pyramid only allows for a few jobs at the top and desk officers should have should have a better system for identifying those people. Reporting officers need to be more realistic and honest when writing reports instead of blowing smoke up people's ar$es. There is too much weak leadership where 'mates' fail to report on their subordinates correctly as they don't want to upset the apple cart or face any conflict - so they usually capitulate.
There are too many people vying for the same top jobs when that prospect is untenable to most. If manning were able to give people realistic career ceilings and guidance - ie, "you are 34, you have not done an op tour, you don't have a Masters, you have not done any professional development and your reports are average - you only have the max reach for Wg Cdr in your time left' then I'm sure that the workplace would develop a much better and more amenable culture. This would, in turn, produce a Royal Air Force that was able to meet outputs without breaking the moral contracts that it has with its people. Fewer people would be gunning for promotion courses and 'one-upmanship' over their peers, and maybe then they might concentrate on their day jobs and managing their personnel.
Still, I'm glad to be leaving it all behind...
maybe NEM will see MS officers chopped at the end of the level 9 year as a new method of outflow!?
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TWON
Dunno. I was Eng (AS).
Anyway, I said "like" spec aircrew. "Like" used as an adverb approximately means "approximately".
Rgds SOS
Anyway, I said "like" spec aircrew. "Like" used as an adverb approximately means "approximately".
Rgds SOS
Last edited by SOSL; 3rd Sep 2012 at 09:10. Reason: Just showing off
Gentleman Aviator
I've definitely seen a Powerpoint slide somewhere that shows promotion to Sqn Ldr giving service to 38, Wg Cdr to 44, and Gp Capt to 55.
One knows of an RN Cdr who was "binned" under this rule a few years ago - and promptly transferred as a Spec Aircrew Sqn Ldr!!
Interesting for the Exec Stream officer that has his OJAR written by a Mainstream chap who feels bitter about being passed over. Or will the elite only be written up by their fellow elites?
SOSL - Yes I do indeed mean like Spec Aircrew. As alluded to by other posters perhaps this will be used as another manning lever; certainly the prospect of stagnant pay for rather a long time does not fill me with joy. Another bad joke in the long running comedy that is RAF Career Management.
I wonder how long this new system will survive contact with the real world and whether the Mainstream branch will be expected to cope with the churn of Elites/Executives thundering past on their path to glory? My experience in the past with such 'chosen ones' points to the fulfillment of my supposition.....
I wonder how long this new system will survive contact with the real world and whether the Mainstream branch will be expected to cope with the churn of Elites/Executives thundering past on their path to glory? My experience in the past with such 'chosen ones' points to the fulfillment of my supposition.....
With an increasing number promoted to SO2 in the late 20s, early 30s, how are these pers going to be usefully employed until they are 55?
Not many will progress, through no fault of their own in some cases. So for over 20 years they will move along from one desk to another producing ......?
Not many will progress, through no fault of their own in some cases. So for over 20 years they will move along from one desk to another producing ......?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Round and round went the ruddy great wheel
In and out . . .
Back before about 1971 there were two pay scales for officers. Your General List man as a flt lt had just 6 increments before he pay stagnated whereas the Supplementary List man had 16 or more every year to age 38 (and out).
With the advent of the Single List the AFPRB recommended doing away with the 16 increments and stagnating flt lt pay after just 6 as they expected flt lt to be picked up to sqn ldr after 5 increments. This was great fror us with TOS to 38/16 as at a stroke we all moved to top flt lt increments if we had done more than 6 years.
I believe similarly sqn ldr and wg cdr increments were also reigned in and flying pay for wg cdr was cut after the 2nd tour point and the same for gp capt.
What you appear to be saying is that the full career increments for Mong should be made, or are you suspecting it will just freeze?
In and out . . .
With the advent of the Single List the AFPRB recommended doing away with the 16 increments and stagnating flt lt pay after just 6 as they expected flt lt to be picked up to sqn ldr after 5 increments. This was great fror us with TOS to 38/16 as at a stroke we all moved to top flt lt increments if we had done more than 6 years.
I believe similarly sqn ldr and wg cdr increments were also reigned in and flying pay for wg cdr was cut after the 2nd tour point and the same for gp capt.
What you appear to be saying is that the full career increments for Mong should be made, or are you suspecting it will just freeze?
With an increasing number promoted to SO2 in the late 20s, early 30s, how are these pers going to be usefully employed until they are 55?
I don't hold that an increasing number of youthful promotions is a problem; they allow Manning to identify career high-flyers early, and give a chance to leave at their mid-career option for those who fail to shine at Sqn Ldr level. That 'chance' might become enforced, as automatic service to 55 for Sqn Ldrs is pretty much guaranteed to disappear in the next few years, IMHO. Some will be 'assimilated' at age 40 but I would expect others to get the boot at that point.
That 'chance' might become enforced, as automatic service to 55 for Sqn Ldrs is pretty much guaranteed to disappear in the next few years, IMHO. Some will be 'assimilated' at age 40 but I would expect others to get the boot at that point.
That said, there will probably be quite a number where the idea of stagnating in rank / pay for 15-20 year isn't appealing and they go of their own volition, so 'bed blocking' might not be an issue. The issue, however, will be how to retain those individuals with critical skill sets and Qs, QWISR for example given the rapidly rising importance of ISR, or those in the more specialist branches which even on a good year don't have rapid promotion. In those cases, an up or out policy might well prove detrimental to the overall capabilities of the service.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Surely the condition is in the next few years. Offer of promotion to sqn ldr may not include automatic assimilation to age 55.
It may be made with no suggestion of any increase in time to serve or maybe with an offer of assimilation to some time in the 40s.
As Melchett says, this may serve as a driver to get people to jump.
It may be made with no suggestion of any increase in time to serve or maybe with an offer of assimilation to some time in the 40s.
As Melchett says, this may serve as a driver to get people to jump.
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Easy Street makes a good point about SO2 not being a rank. I served as an SO2 in uniform and then served as an SO2, as a contractor, in pinstripes.
The difference was, when I was in pinstripes, I was paid shed-loads more for an easier job.
I don't complain because the extra dosh helped me to enjoy my retirement (IIRC!!).
However, it seems a shame that the MOD lays off good, talented men and women, under whatever the latest scheme happens to be and then employs old snakeoil salesmen, like me, at twice the pay.
I agree we're not twice the cost; but even so ....
Rgds SOS
The difference was, when I was in pinstripes, I was paid shed-loads more for an easier job.
I don't complain because the extra dosh helped me to enjoy my retirement (IIRC!!).
However, it seems a shame that the MOD lays off good, talented men and women, under whatever the latest scheme happens to be and then employs old snakeoil salesmen, like me, at twice the pay.
I agree we're not twice the cost; but even so ....
Rgds SOS
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RAF - SDSR - Personnel
Part of NEM I suppose - what will Apollo and Zeus look like?
Changes to career plans include a new package for junior ranks being introduced under Project APOLLO, a move away from the list-based appointment system for WOs and senior NCOs under Project ZEUS and the creation of an executive stream for those officers with the most potential under Project SIRIUS.
Whilst SIRIUS is a nod towards career management, from the briefings I sat in on, I'm just not sure how well received it will actually be once implemented. We were briefed that individuals would go on to the Exec Stream at some point during their time as senior sqn ldrs. Once on there, subject to periodic review of continued potential, individuals would be bounced around Defence every 2 years to enable them to get the requisite skill sets and career profile to make it to the highest ranks. Those on the Main Stream would be offered longer postings to give a degree of personal stability and professional continuity, but there may be some 'Main Stream' posts which by their very nature, would attract the high fliers e.g. procurement on longer tours.
However, this still raises a number of issues which I'm not convinced have been, or will be resolved.
An individual on the Exec Stream can be 'demoted' back to the Main Stream after I think it was something like 9 or 10 years (or earlier at their request) if they hadn't picked up. Fair enough, give someone else a chance. However, that means the deck is massively loaded in the Service's favour. How many people would willingly - and enthusiastically - sign up to a scheme whose T&C were basically:
"right Blogs, this is your chance for glory. We're going to thrash you for the next 10 years. Your wife will barely see you, and when she does she will complain about your 3rd move to the other side of country in 6 years and the kids becoming increasingly maladjusted. However, at the end of that 10 years, or sooner if we deem it necessary, we'll just demote you back to MS and you can get on with life. You might get promoted, but then again as the Service is shrinking, you probably won't. Sign here, here and here, oh and here's a good number for a divorce lawyer".
or:
"right Blogs, well done. You've taken everything we can throw at you for 10 years and as a reward, we've earmarked you for the highest reaches of the Air Force. You have bags of potential and really get the job done. There's just one little thing however, we notice from your file that you aren't a pilot and all the jobs we were considering for you need a pair of wings, or at a pinch, an Chartered Engineering status. Terribly sorry old boy, but that's just the way it goes. We might be able to get you to Gp Capt, but afraid that will be it. Thanks for trying though, you've really helped us through a sticky patch in getting Project X up and running. So sorry to hear your wife ran off with the tennis coach by the way "
Either of those sound vaguely attractive to any sane individual who would like a semblance of a normal family life outside of the Service? It's effectively Russian roulette with careers. Some - a very few will win - but for a lot it will be messy and lead to bitterness when it goes wrong. Somehow however, I really can see both those scenarios playing out at some point in the not too distant future.
However, this still raises a number of issues which I'm not convinced have been, or will be resolved.
An individual on the Exec Stream can be 'demoted' back to the Main Stream after I think it was something like 9 or 10 years (or earlier at their request) if they hadn't picked up. Fair enough, give someone else a chance. However, that means the deck is massively loaded in the Service's favour. How many people would willingly - and enthusiastically - sign up to a scheme whose T&C were basically:
"right Blogs, this is your chance for glory. We're going to thrash you for the next 10 years. Your wife will barely see you, and when she does she will complain about your 3rd move to the other side of country in 6 years and the kids becoming increasingly maladjusted. However, at the end of that 10 years, or sooner if we deem it necessary, we'll just demote you back to MS and you can get on with life. You might get promoted, but then again as the Service is shrinking, you probably won't. Sign here, here and here, oh and here's a good number for a divorce lawyer".
or:
"right Blogs, well done. You've taken everything we can throw at you for 10 years and as a reward, we've earmarked you for the highest reaches of the Air Force. You have bags of potential and really get the job done. There's just one little thing however, we notice from your file that you aren't a pilot and all the jobs we were considering for you need a pair of wings, or at a pinch, an Chartered Engineering status. Terribly sorry old boy, but that's just the way it goes. We might be able to get you to Gp Capt, but afraid that will be it. Thanks for trying though, you've really helped us through a sticky patch in getting Project X up and running. So sorry to hear your wife ran off with the tennis coach by the way "
Either of those sound vaguely attractive to any sane individual who would like a semblance of a normal family life outside of the Service? It's effectively Russian roulette with careers. Some - a very few will win - but for a lot it will be messy and lead to bitterness when it goes wrong. Somehow however, I really can see both those scenarios playing out at some point in the not too distant future.
Last edited by Melchett01; 4th Sep 2012 at 11:29.
