OA to be paid to Libyan Aircrew
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: S England
Age: 54
Posts: 320
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The rates at the moment I believe are capped actuals with receipt proof so your assertion that people are wanting to somehow profit, instead of feeding themselves, is a disgrace.
All meals are subject to stringent limits - all expenses on receipt only with no "carry over"
It seems you conveniently ignored my comment that:
Nobody should have to supplement their meals from their own pocket, by the way and if that's genuinely the case, it needs to be addressed.
Regarding your question about what I would prefer; I remind you of Grabbers' point:
I agree with your point that morale is fragile but I disagree that 'allowances must be made'. Perception is reality and whilst the sums are negligible in the great scheme of things the bottom line is there is no cash
I was told that although the crews are in a hotel, some bright spark has declared field conditions and therefore no LOA (newspapers/internet not provided however etc etc).
If you eat at home, it will cost you A = (ingredients) + (preparation). Preparation means electricity/gas/charcoal for cooking, plus hot water/detergent for washing up etc.
If you eat out at a catering establishment, no matter where you are, it will cost you B = (ingredients) + (preparation) + (staff cost element) + (restaurant profit element).
Now, it's entirely plausible that the cost of ingredients at the catering establishment is going to be greater than the cost of ingredients bought at your local supermarket. Preparation might cost about the same, or possibly less given economies of scale. But you will be faced with the staff cost element and restaurant profit element - no hotel restaurant is run as a charity.
Thus the minimum allowance, where you have no choice in the matter, should surely be (B-A) ?
Of course Pie Command can tuck in whilst airborne to some extent - so the impact on their pockets will be less than it will be for a non-flier. But the impact upon non-fliers is likely to be financially punitive - through absolutely no fault on their part.
Anyway, why isn't there a contract in place to feed the five thousand as we had in Riyadh 1991?
If it's 'field conditions', then ask for some hexamine stoves and compo and start brewing up in mess tins on the restaurant tables.......
If you eat out at a catering establishment, no matter where you are, it will cost you B = (ingredients) + (preparation) + (staff cost element) + (restaurant profit element).
Now, it's entirely plausible that the cost of ingredients at the catering establishment is going to be greater than the cost of ingredients bought at your local supermarket. Preparation might cost about the same, or possibly less given economies of scale. But you will be faced with the staff cost element and restaurant profit element - no hotel restaurant is run as a charity.
Thus the minimum allowance, where you have no choice in the matter, should surely be (B-A) ?
Of course Pie Command can tuck in whilst airborne to some extent - so the impact on their pockets will be less than it will be for a non-flier. But the impact upon non-fliers is likely to be financially punitive - through absolutely no fault on their part.
Anyway, why isn't there a contract in place to feed the five thousand as we had in Riyadh 1991?
If it's 'field conditions', then ask for some hexamine stoves and compo and start brewing up in mess tins on the restaurant tables.......
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Lincoln
Age: 54
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wensleydale
Mate - you've moved me to log in for the first time in ages.
You don't do any of us any favours by posting what you did. I know you mean well but the fact that your previous colleagues (of which I was one for several years) told you 'stuff' in good faith shouldn't then mean you can then blab what they told you on here.
We are where we are. Its a nasty sandwich but we get on with it because of the professionalism of the people and the fact that they don't want to drop their mates in the proverbial.
I feel that I am quite lucky. At least I can afford to put my hand in my pocket to make good of the bad. Its the young (engineering) kids with families back home to support whilst they also work bloody hard to support the rest of us in doing the bidding of the penny pinching serpants that I really feel sorry for. They are the ones that really need the OA and who will get nothing.
SA
You don't do any of us any favours by posting what you did. I know you mean well but the fact that your previous colleagues (of which I was one for several years) told you 'stuff' in good faith shouldn't then mean you can then blab what they told you on here.
We are where we are. Its a nasty sandwich but we get on with it because of the professionalism of the people and the fact that they don't want to drop their mates in the proverbial.
I feel that I am quite lucky. At least I can afford to put my hand in my pocket to make good of the bad. Its the young (engineering) kids with families back home to support whilst they also work bloody hard to support the rest of us in doing the bidding of the penny pinching serpants that I really feel sorry for. They are the ones that really need the OA and who will get nothing.
SA
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: S England
Age: 54
Posts: 320
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Its the young (engineering) kids with families back home to support whilst they also work bloody hard to support the rest of us in doing the bidding of the penny pinching serpants that I really feel sorry for. They are the ones that really need the OA and who will get nothing.
Of course they should not have to put their hands in their pockets to feed themselves, but that just means they should get an adequate food allowance, not the OA. And yes, I fully support the fact that those allowances should be receipted actuals, too.
Odd that, SA. I'm told that the food is on contract and extremely good, as is the laundry service. If folk want to go out and eat, that's their choice just as it would be at home....eat out and you pay to do so. Which sounds entirely reasonable to me.
Anyway, good luck to all involved!
Anyway, good luck to all involved!
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Lincoln
Age: 43
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Seriously - RN getting OA?
FODPlod,
Well said CRIMINAL! How many RN servicemen actually know that they're within 12nm when they're on board? Surely the submarine crews don't, and I'd bet that most of the ships company don't either. It's only risk if you know where you are!
And on the subject of submarines, does Gaddaffi have a sub surface capability? If so then it's probably a dangerous place to be, if not then its as dangerous as usual - which you get specialist pay for.
Also, why shouldn't the RAF lead a higher quality of life, we're recruited for our style, caddishness and love of the finer things in life. Join the Navy for the opposite.
Well said CRIMINAL! How many RN servicemen actually know that they're within 12nm when they're on board? Surely the submarine crews don't, and I'd bet that most of the ships company don't either. It's only risk if you know where you are!
And on the subject of submarines, does Gaddaffi have a sub surface capability? If so then it's probably a dangerous place to be, if not then its as dangerous as usual - which you get specialist pay for.
Also, why shouldn't the RAF lead a higher quality of life, we're recruited for our style, caddishness and love of the finer things in life. Join the Navy for the opposite.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,136
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Everyone gets extra money for being away (LSA) which increases in line with how long you've been away...seems quite fair to me. It seems obvious that someone with 1500+ days away gets more than someone with 50+ days away.
Op allowance has always been in place for those actually in harm's way. Which seems quite fair to me. A tanker driver on an Ellamy race track is in no more danger than if he was picking up convex in AARA5. An AH driver is in a whole load more danger in Libya than if he was pootling around SPTA.
There will always be a bunch who hanker after the tax free deals our coalition partners get. I have more sympathy with that point of view.
I speak as someone who supported Herrick from the base of the boulevard, thereby quite rightly not qualifying for OA and someone who doesn't qualify for the Ellamy allowance either despite having spent a long time far closer to the baddies than those on the tanker tracks or in the E3 lobes. I qualified for OA twice for Herrick for service in country and believe it was right to receive it in those cases.
Op allowance has always been in place for those actually in harm's way. Which seems quite fair to me. A tanker driver on an Ellamy race track is in no more danger than if he was picking up convex in AARA5. An AH driver is in a whole load more danger in Libya than if he was pootling around SPTA.
There will always be a bunch who hanker after the tax free deals our coalition partners get. I have more sympathy with that point of view.
I speak as someone who supported Herrick from the base of the boulevard, thereby quite rightly not qualifying for OA and someone who doesn't qualify for the Ellamy allowance either despite having spent a long time far closer to the baddies than those on the tanker tracks or in the E3 lobes. I qualified for OA twice for Herrick for service in country and believe it was right to receive it in those cases.
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Midlands
Posts: 252
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hopefully this will answer some of the questions
Seems fairly black and white to me
The regulations that will appear in JSP 752: Tri-Service Regulations for Allowances:
CHAPTER 10 SECTION 11
OPERATIONAL ALLOWANCE – INTERIM REGULATIONS
1
GENERAL
10.1101. Aim. The aim of the Operational Allowance is to recognise the significantly increased and enduring nature of the danger in specified operational locations (SOL), over and above that compensated for within the X Factor.
CHAPTER 10 SECTION 11
OPERATIONAL ALLOWANCE – INTERIM REGULATIONS
1
GENERAL
10.1101. Aim. The aim of the Operational Allowance is to recognise the significantly increased and enduring nature of the danger in specified operational locations (SOL), over and above that compensated for within the X Factor.
ENTITLEMENT
10.1106. Scope. The Operational Allowance is paid for each day that eligible Service personnel are in a SOL where the Allowance has been declared as payable. The geographical boundary includes personnel serving on RN ships in specified waters and those flying sorties over or into a designated operational area, provided that they directly support the operation. Detailed eligibility for aircrews will be issued separately. The intent is that those aircrew deployed to a forward operating base and flying regular sorties into the SOL will be paid the Allowance as if they were in a SOL. The intent for those who operate from the UK is that they will also be eligible for payment, but only at the daily rate, for times when they fly into or over the SOL in direct support of operations.
10.1106. Scope. The Operational Allowance is paid for each day that eligible Service personnel are in a SOL where the Allowance has been declared as payable. The geographical boundary includes personnel serving on RN ships in specified waters and those flying sorties over or into a designated operational area, provided that they directly support the operation. Detailed eligibility for aircrews will be issued separately. The intent is that those aircrew deployed to a forward operating base and flying regular sorties into the SOL will be paid the Allowance as if they were in a SOL. The intent for those who operate from the UK is that they will also be eligible for payment, but only at the daily rate, for times when they fly into or over the SOL in direct support of operations.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Somewhere flat
Age: 68
Posts: 5,563
Likes: 0
Received 45 Likes
on
30 Posts
SA,
Everyone from Waddington who I spoke to at the air show had something to say about the quality of the det.... the giste was that morale was not as good as it could be and one of the main causes was the application of allowances. The point that I was trying to make is this.... We shouldn'd be reliant upon OA, but on adequate rates. We should be either on rates (or capped actuals that actually cover the cost of eating) plus LOA, or under field conditions with food etc supplied. It seems that neither apply and the lack of carry over means that you have to dip into your own pocket to eat a meal of the same standard that you would receive in your appropriate mess. I totally agree with your comments about the younger members of the det not being able to afford this.
F-Plod,
But try it for 10 years straight as happened to a good number of AWACS guys during the Balkans campaign!
W
I feel that I am quite lucky. At least I can afford to put my hand in my pocket to make good of the bad. Its the young (engineering) kids with families back home to support whilst they also work bloody hard to support the rest of us in doing the bidding of the penny pinching serpants that I really feel sorry for. They are the ones that really need the OA and who will get nothing.
F-Plod,
4 months of the year? In 2-week steps? You mean they get home every fortnight?
W
Okay, I'll play along ;-).
FODPlod
Were there not three desks to choose from when you walked into your local careers office?
You made your bed, now get out it's someone else's turn to sleep in it!!
If I had walked into a local careers office, I'd still have chosen a fighting force in which I slept in a bunk at sea when deployed operationally instead of sleeping in a bed made up by a chambermaid in an Italian resort hotel for two weeks at a time and then complaining about the receipt of 'actuals' for restaurant meals and the lack of a free daily newspaper and internet access. Don't you realise how such drips must appear to members of the other Armed Services or to the general public? I've already agreed in my first post that deployed personnel are entitled to eat decently at no personal expense so where's the problem?
FODPlod,
Well said CRIMINAL! How many RN servicemen actually know that they're within 12nm when they're on board? Surely the submarine crews don't, and I'd bet that most of the ships company don't either. It's only risk if you know where you are!...
Where have I mentioned anything about risk? I responded to a comment about the inadequacy of the Local Overseas Allowance being paid. That has nothing to do with risk-based Operational Allowance. As for risk existing only "if you know where you are!", have you any idea how illogical that statement is? But since you have broached the subject, here are a few headlines for your edification...
Originally Posted by criminal
FODPlod
Were there not three desks to choose from when you walked into your local careers office?
You made your bed, now get out it's someone else's turn to sleep in it!!
Originally Posted by ulsteraviator
FODPlod,
Well said CRIMINAL! How many RN servicemen actually know that they're within 12nm when they're on board? Surely the submarine crews don't, and I'd bet that most of the ships company don't either. It's only risk if you know where you are!...
- HMS York brings aid to Libya as crisis deepens
- Royal Navy Clears Mines From Libyan Harbour
- HMS Liverpool fires on Gaddafi forces
- HMS Liverpool comes under fire off Libyan coast
Last edited by FODPlod; 15th Jul 2011 at 09:08.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: England
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FODPlod,
Where have I mentioned any of those things? We are certainly not operating from anything like this, nor are we receiving anything but LSA.
However, whether you are jollying around the world or on ops, you will wake up from the same bed (even if it is shared by someone else), you will receive the same standard of food (at no extra cost to yourself) and you will do the same job in the same place of work. So effectively, nothing has changed for you.
Maybe you should pay the difference to the people who are out of pocket as you are effectively at war from your own bed?!
...instead of sleeping in a bed made up by a chambermaid in an Italian resort hotel for two weeks at a time and then complaining about the receipt of 'actuals' for restaurant meals and the lack of a free daily newspaper and internet access.
However, whether you are jollying around the world or on ops, you will wake up from the same bed (even if it is shared by someone else), you will receive the same standard of food (at no extra cost to yourself) and you will do the same job in the same place of work. So effectively, nothing has changed for you.
Maybe you should pay the difference to the people who are out of pocket as you are effectively at war from your own bed?!
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Great Britain
Age: 51
Posts: 340
Likes: 0
Received 11 Likes
on
5 Posts
RUMOUR ONLY!
Next sneaky trick will be that only those on OA will get a Campaign Medal (if issued). Or OA recipients will get a gong that can be worn and non-OA recipients will get a non-article 5 medal that they will be able to accept but not wear (like Afghanistan).
REPEAT RUMOUR ONLY!
The REME groundcrew on OCEAN will not get gongs at present as she is more than 12 miles off the coast. That is not rumour, but fact, and the ship's company were moaning about it on BBC South West tonight.
Saves a few bob though at roughly £15 per medal that would be about £6k or 5 mins of Typhoon flying!
CPL Clott
Next sneaky trick will be that only those on OA will get a Campaign Medal (if issued). Or OA recipients will get a gong that can be worn and non-OA recipients will get a non-article 5 medal that they will be able to accept but not wear (like Afghanistan).
REPEAT RUMOUR ONLY!
The REME groundcrew on OCEAN will not get gongs at present as she is more than 12 miles off the coast. That is not rumour, but fact, and the ship's company were moaning about it on BBC South West tonight.
Saves a few bob though at roughly £15 per medal that would be about £6k or 5 mins of Typhoon flying!
CPL Clott
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: at home
Posts: 412
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There are of course a lot of remfs who sit around in the relatively safe confines of bastion and khandahar claiming an op allowance whilst driving an air conditioned wagon the 300 yards from their cabin to their blunt desk. They then type out endless e-mails, mank about how Aircrew only do 10-12 weeks, or make some new sign to put up about what you are not allowed to do anymore.
To be honest, I think that tanker and AWACS crews deserve better. Surely a graduated op allowance is the way forward. I wouldn't begrudge the private soldier who lives in a PB and gets malleted every day on a hot patrol if he got more than me. Likewise I might expect to get slightly more than the fat WAAF who doles out the blueys..
There must be a fairer system. Employment of the existing regs for ellamy is just sheer laziness.
To be honest, I think that tanker and AWACS crews deserve better. Surely a graduated op allowance is the way forward. I wouldn't begrudge the private soldier who lives in a PB and gets malleted every day on a hot patrol if he got more than me. Likewise I might expect to get slightly more than the fat WAAF who doles out the blueys..
There must be a fairer system. Employment of the existing regs for ellamy is just sheer laziness.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: n/a
Posts: 1,425
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why is OA being paid to Libyan aircrew?
what with all those Tiffy and Rafale mates waiting to mallet them...
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Let us be clear about what OA is for. It is paid to personnel subjected to the "risk and rigour" of the operational environment and is in addition to the X Factor within basic pay. Note that it isn't paid to those suffering just the rigours (which the X Factor is supposed to cover). Believe it or not, even that fat WAAF handing out the blueys is subjected to both risk and rigour, albeit on a different scale to a soldier under constant attack in a PB. Aircrew overflying Libya, and Sailors within Libyan territorial waters, are indeed subjected to the risk and of course the rigours of the operational environment.
I can not hold anything against someone who gets an allowance that I don't, especially given that they qualify for it and I do not. LSA is being paid to those supporting Op ELLAMY away from home and rightly so. When OA didn't exist, everyone just got on with their job on Ops; why with it now being paid do so many people complain about not getting it?
I can not hold anything against someone who gets an allowance that I don't, especially given that they qualify for it and I do not. LSA is being paid to those supporting Op ELLAMY away from home and rightly so. When OA didn't exist, everyone just got on with their job on Ops; why with it now being paid do so many people complain about not getting it?
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: The Whyte House
Age: 95
Posts: 1,966
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aircrew overflying Libya, and Sailors within Libyan territorial waters, are indeed subjected to the risk and of course the rigours of the operational environment.