Plymouth Airport closure and Devonport Dockyard future
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Plymouth Airport closure and Devonport Dockyard future
The future of Devonport Dockyard could be put in doubt with the closure of Plymouth Airport at the end of the year. This is due to the fact that British International helicopters would be unable to support FOST operations(Newquay and Exeter Airports are too far away and the logistics not workable). This would make the Navy consider the relocation of FOST, which in turn would then make the politicians look at the long term future of Devonport.
Hmm.
Do I close the only nuclear-certified dockyard in the country, which would force me to get another dockyard site nuclear licensed (
£££££), or do I do a deal similar to ex-HMS Daedalus where although the airport might be closed to commercial flights a small enclave is maintained for the Coastguard (or in Guzz' case, BIH.......)
Do I close the only nuclear-certified dockyard in the country, which would force me to get another dockyard site nuclear licensed (
£££££), or do I do a deal similar to ex-HMS Daedalus where although the airport might be closed to commercial flights a small enclave is maintained for the Coastguard (or in Guzz' case, BIH.......)
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I have to say that your chain of thought is remarkable, and highly imaginative 
It's also complete tosh.
PS, there's a good place for helis a bit further West. I may have flown to/from there once or twice
It's also complete tosh.
PS, there's a good place for helis a bit further West. I may have flown to/from there once or twice
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NAB - nice idea but Daedalus was MOD property, Plymouth Airport freehold is owned by the city council and leasehold by a company that has in its contract
the right to develop the site, so that is not an option unless the council buy back the lease. In the current situation that is very unlikely.
Airborne - enlighten me as to why in your opinion( because that is what we giving here ) my chain of thought is remarkable and complete tosh
the right to develop the site, so that is not an option unless the council buy back the lease. In the current situation that is very unlikely.
Airborne - enlighten me as to why in your opinion( because that is what we giving here ) my chain of thought is remarkable and complete tosh
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Airborne - enlighten me as to why in your opinion( because that is what we giving here ) my chain of thought is remarkable and complete tosh
If FOST really needs its cabs close by then there are ways of making that happen I suspect. One thing I can be sure of is that the closure of Roborough won't result in the closure of Devonport. Pity Roborough is closing - I enjoyed my first solo in a Chipmunk there in November 1978.
TNS - have you served in the Andrew?
By all accounts Plymouth City Council don't want the airport to close, it's Sutton Harbour holdings that have wrapped on things, so there's every chance that there will be flying from EGHD for a long while yet.
If FOST really needs its cabs close by then there are ways of making that happen I suspect
trafficnotsighted,
I think Airborne is being remarkably generous when he calls your train of thought remarkable and complete tosh.
To suggest that the future of the largest Naval base in western Europe, an establishment that is over 650 acres in size, with over 4 miles of waterfront, 14 dry docks, 25 tidal berths, 5 basins, the UK’s only covered Frigate complex and is the only site in the UK equipped to conduct nuclear submarine refits, and therefore a key part of the UK nuclear deterrent, is threatened with closure because ONE of its host units might have to move the base of 2 contracted light liaison helicopters is frankly bunkum of the highest order.
A remarkable train of thought?
Hope you now feel ever so slightly enlightened.
I think Airborne is being remarkably generous when he calls your train of thought remarkable and complete tosh.
To suggest that the future of the largest Naval base in western Europe, an establishment that is over 650 acres in size, with over 4 miles of waterfront, 14 dry docks, 25 tidal berths, 5 basins, the UK’s only covered Frigate complex and is the only site in the UK equipped to conduct nuclear submarine refits, and therefore a key part of the UK nuclear deterrent, is threatened with closure because ONE of its host units might have to move the base of 2 contracted light liaison helicopters is frankly bunkum of the highest order.
A remarkable train of thought?
Hope you now feel ever so slightly enlightened.
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Airborne - Yes FOST has only been there there since 95 i believe and it could relocate. But if it was to, it would be another Naval loss to the city of Plymouth and could ( i say again could) put the dockyards future in doubt and in the current climate where the government are constantly looking to make cut backs, Plymouth needs to keep its Naval presence as large as it can. It is also a real money spinner for the Navy with the foreign Navies and involves about 600 staff , so contributes a lot to the local economy.
Chuffer - The options of keeping the cabs close by and meeting the task requirments are none starters. The sites looked at are very limited and only really offer VFR. Ops.
N H - The council have always spouted off they support the airport but now its time to put their money where their mouths are they have gone really quiet. Also take into account the airport land when it is sold off for development, the money is divided between Sutton Harbour and the council. Option 1 -Oooh sit back a let the Airport close and take the money to keep the rest homes open.
Option 2 - step in bailout the airport a couple of million and close the rest homes
pROONE - Run with me on this a bit
. I do not question all your facts about the base (except the submarine refits, i thought that was moving, although i might be wrong) Yes FOST is one of the host units, but i believe it has a bigger part to play in the Naval makeup of Devonport than you give it credit for and it is far more than a liason helicopter operation. Again i submit one less Naval activity based at Devonport cannot be good for its long term future.
Anotherthing which seems to have been missed is the SAR requirment to use Plymouth airport as the Seakings cannot operate directly in and out of Derriford hospital.
For the record i did serve in the andrew.
Chuffer - The options of keeping the cabs close by and meeting the task requirments are none starters. The sites looked at are very limited and only really offer VFR. Ops.
N H - The council have always spouted off they support the airport but now its time to put their money where their mouths are they have gone really quiet. Also take into account the airport land when it is sold off for development, the money is divided between Sutton Harbour and the council. Option 1 -Oooh sit back a let the Airport close and take the money to keep the rest homes open.
Option 2 - step in bailout the airport a couple of million and close the rest homes
pROONE - Run with me on this a bit
. I do not question all your facts about the base (except the submarine refits, i thought that was moving, although i might be wrong) Yes FOST is one of the host units, but i believe it has a bigger part to play in the Naval makeup of Devonport than you give it credit for and it is far more than a liason helicopter operation. Again i submit one less Naval activity based at Devonport cannot be good for its long term future.Anotherthing which seems to have been missed is the SAR requirment to use Plymouth airport as the Seakings cannot operate directly in and out of Derriford hospital.
For the record i did serve in the andrew.
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If FOST's 600 staff is that important to the Plymouth economy, then the city council can work to find a solution to stop FOST leaving.
The university has 30,000 students and 3,000 staff, for comparison. The population is about 250,000.
The university has 30,000 students and 3,000 staff, for comparison. The population is about 250,000.
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largest Naval base in western Europe, an establishment that is over 650 acres in size, with over 4 miles of waterfront, 14 dry docks, 25 tidal berths, 5 basins, the UK’s only covered Frigate complex and is the only site in the UK equipped to conduct nuclear submarine refits,
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Only time will tell but i do think that when the airport closes it will make the long term future of the dockyard more uncertain. You only ever get Plymouth City council's attention when there is a threat to the dockyard and i think they are being very shortsighted by not seeing that the loss of the airport could jepardise the dockyards future.
Plymouth dockyard has been an RN base for centuries, and has to my knowledge flown 2 x small helos from the airport for about 15 years.
There is plenty of space in the dockyard for a helo pad if required, and the idea that somehow a tiny flight is going to mean the closure of the aiport is hyperbole of the worst kind.
Yes the dockyard may downsize, but there is no chance (and I mean no chance) of the dockyard closing due to the airport closing. Its akin to me saying that because an Army lodger unit on farmers land by RAF Brize Norton running a garage for a few landrovers has to move, RAF Brize Norton is going to close...
FOST is part of the dockyard, and ultimately if the helo requirement is so vital, then ways will be found to keep it there. I've not seen nor heard any suggestion of moving FOST, as there is no money to do so, and its in quite a good location as it is. The helos are a nice to have, not a 'mission critical or we leave' need to have. You are utterly overstating the importance of a very small capability which is easily duplicated within the dockyard if utterly necessary.
There is plenty of space in the dockyard for a helo pad if required, and the idea that somehow a tiny flight is going to mean the closure of the aiport is hyperbole of the worst kind.
Yes the dockyard may downsize, but there is no chance (and I mean no chance) of the dockyard closing due to the airport closing. Its akin to me saying that because an Army lodger unit on farmers land by RAF Brize Norton running a garage for a few landrovers has to move, RAF Brize Norton is going to close...
FOST is part of the dockyard, and ultimately if the helo requirement is so vital, then ways will be found to keep it there. I've not seen nor heard any suggestion of moving FOST, as there is no money to do so, and its in quite a good location as it is. The helos are a nice to have, not a 'mission critical or we leave' need to have. You are utterly overstating the importance of a very small capability which is easily duplicated within the dockyard if utterly necessary.
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Devonport Dockyard has been in decline for years. In fact, Plymouth has been in decline for years. The airport is too small and the locals who live around it have ensured that by opposing all expansion, it has to close. When I say locals, they are more than likely people who have moved in and then complained.
The dockyard is not the massive employer it used to be although it does have some specific areas of expertise. It is unlikely to close and it will be interesting to see where they intend to repair the new aircraft carriers. Devonport had the largest dry dock in the country - not sure if it is still functioning. FOST may or may not remain but it certainly does NOT depend on Plymouth Airport!
I think you will find there are already helipads there - Plymouth Navy Days used to illustrate that! ahhh those were the days!
The dockyard is not the massive employer it used to be although it does have some specific areas of expertise. It is unlikely to close and it will be interesting to see where they intend to repair the new aircraft carriers. Devonport had the largest dry dock in the country - not sure if it is still functioning. FOST may or may not remain but it certainly does NOT depend on Plymouth Airport!
I think you will find there are already helipads there - Plymouth Navy Days used to illustrate that! ahhh those were the days!
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Despite the reducing size of the fleet, I can't see either Portsmouth or Devonport closing as RN facilities, even if soon it'll be possible to fit the entire fleet into one of them. There's too much risk in having just one dockyard.
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There is already a helo pad in the dockyard - Weston Mill, which can certainly take a Merlin, and it looks like there's enough room for a Chinook. Shouldn't take too much effort to expand it a bit, particularly when you consider that Plymouth Mil is already sited there. The main issue is a lack of approach aids, making it a day/VMC operation only.
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But the 300 Admirals we have need to be in the SW of England -
they couldn't live anywhere else surely?
and not far from the Naval Constructors place (and what the hell are they doing these days?)
they couldn't live anywhere else surely?
and not far from the Naval Constructors place (and what the hell are they doing these days?)
Well just a month airport closes. Has the RN come up with any other solution yet?
I have only recently stumbled across this thread and the issues are complex. For those who state that Devonport is too valuable to close are forgetting that only recently the dockyard was indeed under threat of closure in favour of Faslane and Portsmouth. Most of the dockyard is unused. Yes it has a frigate refit complex and a nuclear facility but Rosyth also has refit facilities as does Portsmouth and there is a very BIG hole in Scotland where the Nuclear refit site was going to be. Move of the Royal Marines into Plymouth makes better use of the dockyard. Queen Elizabeth will not be able to get up the Hamoaze!
Without FOST, the need to retain the wharves becomes more difficult to justify. There is significant activity with the 'lodger' that is FOST and the Dauphin helicopters are key to that organisation's efficiency, meaning that FOST can use less servicemen to conduct training. Without the helicopters, boat transfers would be required which would mean ships returning to port, staff staying onboard for longer periods and if the RN wishes to offer the same level of training, then more Sailors would be required. = COST
The dockyard could indeed host a heliport and there was an opportunity some years ago for the RN to do that but, it true shortsighted fashion, they went for the cheap (in the short run) option. To put a heliport in the dockyard would however create problems. Noise to the local population, hazards on the approach (Weston Mill involves a 180 degree turn around some cranes) and few options in poor weather. GNSS/GPS/EGNOS approaches could be produced (only under military regulations at the moment) but even then, in times of fog (regular occurrence) the helicopters would probably not get in and the approach plane would be a significant problem (hills, cranes, ships, the BRIDGE!). Use of airfields like Newquay and Culdrose would involve significant extra cost due to the fuel requirement, with the aircraft often operating close the limits of Weight/fuel/range combinations.
A remote site could be built elsewhere but this would involve investment and also bus transfers of the FOST staff. - longer working day or more staff = COST
So what to do? Move FOST to Portsmouth? No chance, the amount of civil traffic using the EGD 036 complex inbound to Gatwick and Heathrow would probably preclude daily activation of the danger areas so where would you conduct target towing, missile firings etc
Faslane? Yes a possibility with good access to training areas. = bye bye Devonport.
Gibraltar? Even better with the benefit of good weather as well. = bye bye Devonport
Whatever happens, the Airport, Fost and the dockyard are intertwined. They rely on each other. I will be interested to see what happens in the next few months.
I have only recently stumbled across this thread and the issues are complex. For those who state that Devonport is too valuable to close are forgetting that only recently the dockyard was indeed under threat of closure in favour of Faslane and Portsmouth. Most of the dockyard is unused. Yes it has a frigate refit complex and a nuclear facility but Rosyth also has refit facilities as does Portsmouth and there is a very BIG hole in Scotland where the Nuclear refit site was going to be. Move of the Royal Marines into Plymouth makes better use of the dockyard. Queen Elizabeth will not be able to get up the Hamoaze!
Without FOST, the need to retain the wharves becomes more difficult to justify. There is significant activity with the 'lodger' that is FOST and the Dauphin helicopters are key to that organisation's efficiency, meaning that FOST can use less servicemen to conduct training. Without the helicopters, boat transfers would be required which would mean ships returning to port, staff staying onboard for longer periods and if the RN wishes to offer the same level of training, then more Sailors would be required. = COST
The dockyard could indeed host a heliport and there was an opportunity some years ago for the RN to do that but, it true shortsighted fashion, they went for the cheap (in the short run) option. To put a heliport in the dockyard would however create problems. Noise to the local population, hazards on the approach (Weston Mill involves a 180 degree turn around some cranes) and few options in poor weather. GNSS/GPS/EGNOS approaches could be produced (only under military regulations at the moment) but even then, in times of fog (regular occurrence) the helicopters would probably not get in and the approach plane would be a significant problem (hills, cranes, ships, the BRIDGE!). Use of airfields like Newquay and Culdrose would involve significant extra cost due to the fuel requirement, with the aircraft often operating close the limits of Weight/fuel/range combinations.
A remote site could be built elsewhere but this would involve investment and also bus transfers of the FOST staff. - longer working day or more staff = COST
So what to do? Move FOST to Portsmouth? No chance, the amount of civil traffic using the EGD 036 complex inbound to Gatwick and Heathrow would probably preclude daily activation of the danger areas so where would you conduct target towing, missile firings etc
Faslane? Yes a possibility with good access to training areas. = bye bye Devonport.
Gibraltar? Even better with the benefit of good weather as well. = bye bye Devonport
Whatever happens, the Airport, Fost and the dockyard are intertwined. They rely on each other. I will be interested to see what happens in the next few months.