Plymouth Airport closure and Devonport Dockyard future
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Me too R1 - on day release from BRNC (40 Flt, started 6 Jan 1969); two grass runways with the same orientation as present, more or less.
My Instructor was a bluff old cove called Mr Greenhow, former Sunderland pilot.
Mister B
My Instructor was a bluff old cove called Mr Greenhow, former Sunderland pilot.
Mister B
FOST helos to be based at Newquay
Plymouth Herald 21 Dec 2011: Base in the Duchy for helicopters at airport
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I guess feasibility studies were made at both HMS Drake and Crownhill to build a permanent heli-base at either location? It is a shame to see the personnel plus more important the helicopters commuting when there is so much MoD land available that has the room, IF... that huge parade ground is still available at Drake plus there is an awful lot of MoD land at Shaugh Prior. 
I guess border control and immigrations officials will be kept busy checking these daily commuters as they cross to and fro across the border.
I guess border control and immigrations officials will be kept busy checking these daily commuters as they cross to and fro across the border.
Glojo,
The MOD (RN) had the opportunity to sort this out five years ago when the contract was up for renewal. With a bit of vision/willpower, they could have had a purpose built site in the dockyard and procedures developed for approaches in all but the worst weather. They decided to take the cheap way out and now they will pay the price.
It will cost much more now in fuel, man hours flexibilty etc to operate from Newquay with a FOB at HMS Raleigh. If they had bit the bullet then, the long term savings would have been realised. The staff already have long hours as it is without having to get bussed/boated across the Tamar.
Bean counters not able to see beyond their noses. the only cost effective option now will be to move to Scotland and the Plymouth economy will take a further hit as a result.
The MOD (RN) had the opportunity to sort this out five years ago when the contract was up for renewal. With a bit of vision/willpower, they could have had a purpose built site in the dockyard and procedures developed for approaches in all but the worst weather. They decided to take the cheap way out and now they will pay the price.
It will cost much more now in fuel, man hours flexibilty etc to operate from Newquay with a FOB at HMS Raleigh. If they had bit the bullet then, the long term savings would have been realised. The staff already have long hours as it is without having to get bussed/boated across the Tamar.
Bean counters not able to see beyond their noses. the only cost effective option now will be to move to Scotland and the Plymouth economy will take a further hit as a result.
Widger, what a load of chutney. Having just done OST (in an FF/DD), we had about a half-dozen transfers by helo in 8 weeks. As ever, the vast majority of staff transfers were done by BTX in the sound. The people this will really effect is the CVS/LPH/LPD crowd who don't like coming up harbour much. The simple solution to that would be to embed Staff for the entire week. Cue much wailing and knashing of Searider teeth!
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Widger, what a load of chutney.
Accommodating the Sea Riders..... Man's best friend and do the smaller ships have the capability to accommodate them? Do our aircraft carriers now do their 'work-up' with the rest of the fleet?
A helicopter base to me makes sound sense as does locating it at Raleigh (where's this 'i' before 'e' m'larky) I did suggest that location but it's in Cornwall, so omitted it from my post!!
I see no tactical sense in having basing helicopters on the Atlantic coast when the ships you are serving are mainly operating out in the Western Approaches\Plymouth. Will they pay relocating expenses for those that want to move? What about the travelling for those that do not want to move? Holding a driving licence is going to be a prerequisite and what about any emergency cover? Travelling that route by road in summer is going to be a hoot for those that get stuck in the regularly tail backs that we see on this route. Would it have been feasible to construct a purpose built helicopter location and maybe rented out hangar space to both the Police and Ambulance service? (Too late now)
Alfred,
Chutney I speak not. The whole reason the SOOTAX was implemented (in the Portland days) was to save money on staff and fuel. A Boat Transfer requires the ship to enter the sound. On some occasions this will be okay as it fits with the programme. SOOTAX will however, allow the ship to remain in the allocated exercise area and also minimise staff transit time, allowing staff to either hop between ships or get back to the HQ to write up their reports. There have been several studies looking at the cost benefit of SOOTAX, with clear calculations on the number of extra staff vs cost of the contact. (Pop into SOO's Office and ask SG for a copy if you doubt me). It is only because the figures dictated it was cheaper by air, that the SOOTAX remains. Whilst Boat Transfer might be okay on a quiet week, when there is a busy programme (not just capital ships), SOOTAX is the only way, versus Ship's fuel, tugs, SERCO Boat contract, available staff, working day etc.
Boat transfer also takes 1/2 an hour from the steps to the sound, plus tansit of the ship outside the breakwater. Fine if it is a NAVEX or Mine transit but not if you are doing a MISSILEX or GUNEX in the Portland areas. The programmers juggle with these problems every week as you probably know.
SOOTAX was 5 minutes to Weston Mill or 10-15 to the Airport dependent on traffic, followed by a maximum of usually 15-20 minute transit, without interrupting ship's training.
Embedding staff for a week will not be a very good use of seariders time, particularly if they have 2 or 3 ships to train. (unless of course you use more staff, which is unaffordable).
Whilst from your perspective it may feel that there is not a significant amount of Air movement being undertaken, there is in the order about 3000+ pax movements per year undertaken by BIH. Every single one of those pax will now have a factor of fuel/distance/time added with the loss of the Airport facilities and this will swing the cost benefit calculations to the point where it may be unaffordable for either the RN or the contractor.
Now, as I have eleborated my reasoning, would you care to provide some further fact rather than just crticising my posts as 'Chutney'?
All the best and Merry Christmas
Chutney I speak not. The whole reason the SOOTAX was implemented (in the Portland days) was to save money on staff and fuel. A Boat Transfer requires the ship to enter the sound. On some occasions this will be okay as it fits with the programme. SOOTAX will however, allow the ship to remain in the allocated exercise area and also minimise staff transit time, allowing staff to either hop between ships or get back to the HQ to write up their reports. There have been several studies looking at the cost benefit of SOOTAX, with clear calculations on the number of extra staff vs cost of the contact. (Pop into SOO's Office and ask SG for a copy if you doubt me). It is only because the figures dictated it was cheaper by air, that the SOOTAX remains. Whilst Boat Transfer might be okay on a quiet week, when there is a busy programme (not just capital ships), SOOTAX is the only way, versus Ship's fuel, tugs, SERCO Boat contract, available staff, working day etc.
Boat transfer also takes 1/2 an hour from the steps to the sound, plus tansit of the ship outside the breakwater. Fine if it is a NAVEX or Mine transit but not if you are doing a MISSILEX or GUNEX in the Portland areas. The programmers juggle with these problems every week as you probably know.
SOOTAX was 5 minutes to Weston Mill or 10-15 to the Airport dependent on traffic, followed by a maximum of usually 15-20 minute transit, without interrupting ship's training.
Embedding staff for a week will not be a very good use of seariders time, particularly if they have 2 or 3 ships to train. (unless of course you use more staff, which is unaffordable).
Whilst from your perspective it may feel that there is not a significant amount of Air movement being undertaken, there is in the order about 3000+ pax movements per year undertaken by BIH. Every single one of those pax will now have a factor of fuel/distance/time added with the loss of the Airport facilities and this will swing the cost benefit calculations to the point where it may be unaffordable for either the RN or the contractor.
Now, as I have eleborated my reasoning, would you care to provide some further fact rather than just crticising my posts as 'Chutney'?
All the best and Merry Christmas
It's chutney because having just seen an OST, and alongside about 4 other ships at OST, we did the vast majority of our Staff Tx by boat. Indeed, up to 4 a day for a couple of days.
I'm not denying that it will be a pain in the arse for SOO and his team, but to declare FOST now need to move to Scotland simply because they might have to take the ferry to RALEIGH is chutney. In fact, thinking about it, where exactly are you going to put them in Scotland?
Faslane is about an hour from the 'proper' sea, and about 2 hours from areas I'd be comfy in doing work-up (if only because there's not a lot of space to allow a decent PIM until you are well south of Arran and Ailsa Crag). The weather is generally worse than the SWAPPS, I know because I've done a draft there. Finally, where are you going to fit the berthing facilities in Faslane for the 3 or 4 lines of training that are typically going on?
Rosyth is even further from the open sea, and has absolutely none of the facilities required to run a core OST (not the same as a CVS/LPH work-up or JMC TG).
I'm not denying that it will be a pain in the arse for SOO and his team, but to declare FOST now need to move to Scotland simply because they might have to take the ferry to RALEIGH is chutney. In fact, thinking about it, where exactly are you going to put them in Scotland?
Faslane is about an hour from the 'proper' sea, and about 2 hours from areas I'd be comfy in doing work-up (if only because there's not a lot of space to allow a decent PIM until you are well south of Arran and Ailsa Crag). The weather is generally worse than the SWAPPS, I know because I've done a draft there. Finally, where are you going to fit the berthing facilities in Faslane for the 3 or 4 lines of training that are typically going on?
Rosyth is even further from the open sea, and has absolutely none of the facilities required to run a core OST (not the same as a CVS/LPH work-up or JMC TG).
Last edited by alfred_the_great; 21st Dec 2011 at 13:45.
