Sharkey shows his teeth

[glojo]

Hi ff
I have tried to access the link you very kindly posted but I'm blowed if I will take out a subscription to that newspaper...

I fear that folks are misunderstanding what I am trying to say....

I and every reasonable person in the land accepts that it is complete and utter drivel, complete tosh to suggest that there would be a 24hr time constraint for CAS... Completely one hundred percent accept that as fact.. full stop no queries no questions.

What I am suggesting and please note.... I am suggesting is that the letter wrote by this officer who retired last century; might be suggesting that a pre planned operation that requires close air support should be pre booked to ensure the cover is at the right place at the right time!

I totally accept that if it is not pre-booked and the manure hits the shovel then the boys in light blue will attempt to get the pongos out of the poo!!

IF the letter posted by Cmdr Ward emphatically states any CAS would need 24hr notice then I will also suggest it is way past that gentleman's bed-time but at the moment his every word appears to be dissected and YES, YES, YES again yes, some of the dissected words are tosh, but some are twisted by those that do not want to listen.

My thoughts are we need BOTH THE RAF and the Fleet Air Arm or.......

we could do away completely with the Fleet Air Arm, have two aircraft carriers that fly either the F-35 or F-18 and also have that same aircraft as the main stay of the RAF for the relevant tasks it is able to perform. Then let RAF personnel do 12 month tours aboard the carriers as part of their service!! The ship will be manned and sailed by the Royal Navy but the airfield, plus hangers are the domain of the RAF!!! Obviously the carriers would not be capable of all operations as has so eloquently been explained on this thread but it moist certainly can be used on other operations that are also being run at this moment in time.

Would that please Cmdr Ward or you guys and gals? How can anyone object to that suggestion?

I will now very quickly get to my air raid shelter in the full knowledge that you guys could not hit a barn door if it was parked on the bow of your hurricane.

[ARXW]

In response to post #84 (beagle):

I don't think that anyone would cast aspersions at Cdr Ward's record in the Falklands. He did damn well - apart from trying to call up the Black Buck Vulcan inbound to its target. Others perhaps deserved some...querying. Such as the pilot who hadn't boned up on the differences between GR3 and FRS1 weapons switchery, for example.... Read Mog's book - a much better all round read than Ward's.

just an observation...the said pilot who made a mess of the switchery can hardly be blamed for any significant share of the failings of the SHAR force: that would have been too unfair (as is any discussion on failings and SHARs in 1982)...also, the said pilot perished in a mid-air during 1v1 ACM in '83 and this adds to above unfortunate comment if you consider that he (and another RAFG sqn colleague of his) were the last two supplementary pilots to be rushed to the Sea Harrier from RAFG and so had even less conversion time than even Morgan himself on the SHAR...

...not to mention he still got the job done in that instance and in general bagged two Argentinian a/c in that conflict and furthermore and perhaps more importantly he was an ex-Lightning god

[just another jocky]

So, is there anyone else left here that thinks Ward actually has the remotest clue what he's talking about?

[FODPlod]

So, is there anyone else left here that thinks Ward actually has the remotest clue what he's talking about?

Who knows? It's still fun to see how some people can't let it go.

[newt]

Maybe Mr Ward would like to comment on the cost of replacing old through deck cruisers with two modern aircraft carriers which has now escalated to £10.5 billion!

How much a day will it cost to run these vessels?

Oh at least half because one is in mothballs!

And how much does it cost to keep a ship in mothballs? Might I suggest about the same as keeping one at sea?

Maybe he would like to change his out of date ideology and offer some real advice as to where the UK defence money should be spent in the future.

Might I suggest that UK Plc cannot afford carriers without escorts and aircraft or indeed Trident replacement for unwanted submarines.

What we need is UK air defence and a very active border control agency allied with a tactical nuclear capability from UK based air assets.

So the question is, do we not need a Navy!

Now this thread should get interesting! I retire to the bunker with scotch in hand

[Barksdale Boy]

Who is Irgo?

[just another jocky]

BB - A very distant cousin of Ergo?

Newt - nukes on aircraft again? No thanks, far too much like hard work. Let the subs keep them, but as a part of the RAF!

[Barksdale Boy]

JAJ - Vero

[Lottery Winner]

Incorporate ALL RM and Army land capability into the RAF Regiment and re-instate the RAF Marine Branch which can take control of the subs and remaining skimmers ... job done!

[phil9560]

Apologies in advance for the thread drift.

The RAF pilot who confused his weapons switches is presumably the same pilot who loosed off a Sidewinder on the ground ? Was he then a guest at the weddingof the soldier who got in the way of the missile?

And I'm sure his picture featured in a Pilot recruitment brochure of the time ?

[newt]

Marine Craft Units!! A great idea. Give them lots of stealth boats with missiles!

Much cheaper than carriers and subs

[FODPlod]

Marine Craft Units!! A great idea. Give them lots of stealth boats with missiles!

Much cheaper than carriers and subs

Here you go:

Caspian Sea Monster

[MAINJAFAD]

Apologies in advance for the thread drift.

The RAF pilot who confused his weapons switches is presumably the same pilot who loosed off a Sidewinder on the ground ? Was he then a guest at the weddingof the soldier who got in the way of the missile?

And I'm sure his picture featured in a Pilot recruitment brochure of the time ?

Nope, the Sidewinders that hit the party of Welsh Guards at the end of the runway at Port Stanley came off a GR3 after the war and was caused by a techincal malfunction. The RAF Pilot who had problems with selecting Sidewinder was the late Flt Lt John Leeming who was trying to engage a CANA A-4Q that had just bombed HMS Ardent. When the winders failed to lock on because he had failed to select one switch, he selected guns and made a very close in gun attack which resulted in the Skyhawk exploding in front of him. Of course you could add that the topic of this thread also fired a winder by mistake when he was actually trying to drop a bomb during that war....Good thing his wing man was behind him.

[Just This Once...]

Or adding that he watched one of his Sidewinders fall 'tantalisingly short of its target'.

Or when converted from Sharkey BS into proper QWI speak = he shot out of range.

[Just This Once...]

John Leeming had never flown the Sea Harrier when he volunteered to sail south.

Pretty gutsy effort to do what he did; balls of steel in fact.

[phil9560]

Thanks-.Well done and sadly RIP John Leeming.

Although the guy in the cockpit when the 'winder went off was definately in the careers brochure-I think

[glojo]

809 Squadron was put together at extremely short notice with any spare, experienced pilots. It was immediately deployed to the South Atlantic and I guess we can say that they were all 'rushed into it'. I believe that all aircraft were stowed aboard the merchant ship Atlantic Conveyor, but I bow to anyone that has facts that could dispute this.

There were two RAF pilots attached to that squadron and if these pilots had no experience of flying that specific aircraft then MUCH respect to them, but it begs the question as to the reasoning of doing it. (This is in NO WAY a criticism of those that volunteered) The courage, skill and bravery of every single pilot that fought in that war is well documented and I have nothing but respect and admiration for any person that has the courage to own up to making a mistake whilst under EXTRA ORDINARY pressure. I am positive that as soon as Flt Lt Leeming confessed to his minor woopsie there would have been an instant, ""I've done that and also I've done...........!!!""

This pilot still did the deed and it saddens me to hear of his tragic loss. My thoughts and prayers are with this person's next of kin.

Or adding that he watched one of his Sidewinders fall 'tantalisingly short of its target'.

Or when converted from Sharkey BS into proper QWI speak = he shot out of range.

Is this the incident where the aircraft was running on fumes and he fired the missile more in the hope it would just have the range? When it failed to reach the target he still stubbornly carried home his attack. As a result of shooting down his target he had to make an emergency landing aboard an assault ship to 'borrow' sufficient fuel to get back to Invincible?

I guess Commander Ward is not the only person that enjoys trying to ridicule those that are only guilty of being professional pilots who are never afraid of putting themselves into the hot seat.

Never let the truth spoil a good story and I suppose to some of us, two wrongs will always make one right!!

And again.... Respect to ALL pilots that wear the Queen's uniform.

[Capt P U G Wash]

FAA FFP

These stories of rushed preparations and aircrew not ready jogged my memory. If I remember Nick Richardson wrote about it in his book: No Escape Zone: One Man's True Story of a Journey to Hell.

In that book he told of getting ready for air to surface drops by carrying out a single sortie on the Frasca ranges at Decimommanu. Of course he was subsequently shot down in trying to locate a target if my memory serves me right.

I am starting to see a common thread here of rushing into things only half ready. Is this symptomatic of the esprit de corps and working practices of the FAA (I would be surprised) or is it a sign of chronic under resource, which only gets exposed when the chips are down? For example what should the RN have had ready in 1982, compared to what they did?

More recently, I know that the RN never met their part of the deal when filling JFH cockpits, is there a systemic or structural failing here?

My thesis being, that whilst Sharkey claims sea borne is cheaper. In the past we have got what we paid for - rushed and poorly prepared, with mistakes common place.

[glojo]

or is it a sign of chronic under resource, which only gets exposed when the chips are down? For example what should the RN have had ready in 1982, compared to what they did?

Good question and I guess it is why we saw the Minister of Defence resign.

The Royal Navy had to drag ships out of mothball, get instructors away from their training squadrons plus request the RAF to supply a number of pilots to fly alongside the boys in dark blue. We were using ships that were in mothball, ships that should have been sold, plus ships that were due to decommission. We were not scrapping the bottom of the barrel, we were using the barrel to ferry equipment.

[MG]

Not quite glojo. Lord Carrington, the Foreign Secretary resigned in 1982, taking full responsibility for the lack of attention that the FCO had given to the Falklands. John Nott, the Defence Secretary tendered his resignation but it was not accepted. Those were the days when politicians stood up to be counted and took the Mess Webley if needed.

We mustn't forget the Lord Carrington had a distinguished service record in the Second World War, being one of the first to cross Nijmegen bridge as a Sherman tank commander in the Guards during Market Garden. I think he got the MC for that.