300 Metres of Chinese Whoopass !
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What they need is Cameron to come on board and tell them how well they are doing and that the Country is proud if them, that'll **** em.
It does not appear to sail very straight..
It does not appear to sail very straight..
Last edited by NutLoose; 24th Jul 2012 at 21:51.
Apparently the Chinese have now annexed a small part of the Paracel Islands, much to the irritation of the Vietnamese ... the dots are gradually being joined, even if it takes a 1000 years.
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Bit more to it than that
In the week the carrier does sea trials, they hold a ceremony to mark the opening of a new "city" named Sansha to "to administer the Xisha, Zhongsha and Nansha islands and their surrounding waters in the South China Sea."
New city established on Yongxing Island - China News - SINA English
Sansha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
And oh look they announce at the same time
PLA to garrison in Sansha City - China News - SINA English
And the next day they announce China to build airstrip near Zhongye Island: Philippine media buzz - China News - SINA English
In the week the carrier does sea trials, they hold a ceremony to mark the opening of a new "city" named Sansha to "to administer the Xisha, Zhongsha and Nansha islands and their surrounding waters in the South China Sea."
New city established on Yongxing Island - China News - SINA English
Sansha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
And oh look they announce at the same time
PLA to garrison in Sansha City - China News - SINA English
And the next day they announce China to build airstrip near Zhongye Island: Philippine media buzz - China News - SINA English
Last edited by Milo Minderbinder; 25th Jul 2012 at 01:27.
The Chinese have a fairly good argument for the sovereignty over the Paracel Islands. There was a bit of toing and froing in the 19th century but in the 1920s an International agreement that included Britain and France placed it under Chinese juristriction. Despite this the French invaded it in the 30s when the Chinese were otherwise occupied with the Japanese.
The tides of war turned and in 1945 the Japaneses handed it back to the Chinese (Nationalist) government. In 1949 when the PRoC was formed the Communist goverment took possession.
The Vietnamese considered that they owned it because of the previous French efforts and in 1974 there was a punch-up when the Vietnamese tried to regain control. This failed and a very embarrassed American 'advisor' eventual took a walk across the bridge from Shenzhen to Hong Kong at Lo Wu.
The original merchant traders in the South China Sea were the Chinese, their junks would be everywhere, and there was no end of shoals and lonely islands where they would replenish with water and food. They then considered them part of the Empire and they still do.
The tides of war turned and in 1945 the Japaneses handed it back to the Chinese (Nationalist) government. In 1949 when the PRoC was formed the Communist goverment took possession.
The Vietnamese considered that they owned it because of the previous French efforts and in 1974 there was a punch-up when the Vietnamese tried to regain control. This failed and a very embarrassed American 'advisor' eventual took a walk across the bridge from Shenzhen to Hong Kong at Lo Wu.
The original merchant traders in the South China Sea were the Chinese, their junks would be everywhere, and there was no end of shoals and lonely islands where they would replenish with water and food. They then considered them part of the Empire and they still do.
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Public arguments over borders are generally long and fairly pointless
the Chinese themselves have a long record of
a) being against "unequal" treaties
b) not accepting third party intervention
c) negotiating one-on-one
d) working on the basis of the current "line of control" or "traditionally accepted lines"
e) coming to reasonable agreements with their neighbours
God knows how you sort out the South China Sea tho when everyone is shouting the odds - I suspect the only way is to internationalise any resources found there and jointly produce them (there are several examples around) and leave the papers to yell at each other
the Chinese themselves have a long record of
a) being against "unequal" treaties
b) not accepting third party intervention
c) negotiating one-on-one
d) working on the basis of the current "line of control" or "traditionally accepted lines"
e) coming to reasonable agreements with their neighbours
God knows how you sort out the South China Sea tho when everyone is shouting the odds - I suspect the only way is to internationalise any resources found there and jointly produce them (there are several examples around) and leave the papers to yell at each other
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OK lots of misunderstandings about why the Admiral Kuznetsov and Liaoning are operating in a STOBAR configuration and not with a catapult.
The Project 1143.5 class that forms Admiral Kuznetsov and Liaoning is a slightly scaled up variant of the four ship Project 1143 class and an interim solution for the cancelled 1143.7 Ulyanovsk. Admiral Kuznetsov has very similar propulsion and sub systems to the last of the Project 1143 Admiral Gorshkov (refitted as Vikramaditya for India).
Project 1143.7 was an 85,000 ton nuclear powered carrier fitted with Ski-jump, catapults and arrestor gear. It would of operated a mixed airgroup with a fixed wing AEW type the Yak-44, either the Mig-29K or Su-33 in some form of multi-role form and most importantly the Yak-141 supersonic STOVL fighter. The Yak-44, Mig29 and Su-33 would use the catapult and arrestor gear whilst the Yak-141 would of used the Ski jump.
The primary fixed wing type would of been the Yak-141 operating off the ski jump. It was found that the Mig-29K and Su-33 could both get airborne only using the ski jump so it was decided to fit the arrestor gear to the interim Project 1143.5 to allow the navy to get experience with the more complex landing aspects of CATOBAR operations.
Now what happened next is why we ended up with STOBAR operations only being the main way the 1143.5 were used. Firstly the Russians had technical issues with the catapult which is not a big deal considering it was a number of years before the 1143.7 Ulyanovsk in the early stages of constriction in the Ukraine would of been ready. Secondly the Yak-141 was also suffering problems including a crash in 1991.
These were issues that could of been ironed out and both the Mig-29K and Su-33 were well into testing on the Admiral Kuznetsov meaning the program could proceed. Then the BIIIIIIG problem hit! The fall of the communism and Soviet Union! Much of the funding needed to fix technical problems with the Yak-141 and catapults vanished. The second 1143.5 at 70% construction and the first 1143.7 Ulyanovsk at 40% construction were sitting in a Ukrainian ship yard. What the Russians did have was one 1143.5 the Admiral Kuznetsov in operation with two different fighter types available for operations. So the Su-33 was chosen for service, the Varyag was left to rust away awaiting funding and the Ulyanovsk was scrapped on the slip with no hope of completion.
So there we are, hope people better understand the reasoning behind STOBAR operations on the Admiral Kuznetsov and Liaoning! If all had gone to plan it would of been the Yak-141 roaring off the Admiral Kuznetsov's and Varyag's deck!
IMPORTANT NOTE! I realise that all these ships have had multiple names over their life but have tried to use the most recent in explanation to avoid confusion!
The Project 1143.5 class that forms Admiral Kuznetsov and Liaoning is a slightly scaled up variant of the four ship Project 1143 class and an interim solution for the cancelled 1143.7 Ulyanovsk. Admiral Kuznetsov has very similar propulsion and sub systems to the last of the Project 1143 Admiral Gorshkov (refitted as Vikramaditya for India).
Project 1143.7 was an 85,000 ton nuclear powered carrier fitted with Ski-jump, catapults and arrestor gear. It would of operated a mixed airgroup with a fixed wing AEW type the Yak-44, either the Mig-29K or Su-33 in some form of multi-role form and most importantly the Yak-141 supersonic STOVL fighter. The Yak-44, Mig29 and Su-33 would use the catapult and arrestor gear whilst the Yak-141 would of used the Ski jump.
The primary fixed wing type would of been the Yak-141 operating off the ski jump. It was found that the Mig-29K and Su-33 could both get airborne only using the ski jump so it was decided to fit the arrestor gear to the interim Project 1143.5 to allow the navy to get experience with the more complex landing aspects of CATOBAR operations.
Now what happened next is why we ended up with STOBAR operations only being the main way the 1143.5 were used. Firstly the Russians had technical issues with the catapult which is not a big deal considering it was a number of years before the 1143.7 Ulyanovsk in the early stages of constriction in the Ukraine would of been ready. Secondly the Yak-141 was also suffering problems including a crash in 1991.
These were issues that could of been ironed out and both the Mig-29K and Su-33 were well into testing on the Admiral Kuznetsov meaning the program could proceed. Then the BIIIIIIG problem hit! The fall of the communism and Soviet Union! Much of the funding needed to fix technical problems with the Yak-141 and catapults vanished. The second 1143.5 at 70% construction and the first 1143.7 Ulyanovsk at 40% construction were sitting in a Ukrainian ship yard. What the Russians did have was one 1143.5 the Admiral Kuznetsov in operation with two different fighter types available for operations. So the Su-33 was chosen for service, the Varyag was left to rust away awaiting funding and the Ulyanovsk was scrapped on the slip with no hope of completion.
So there we are, hope people better understand the reasoning behind STOBAR operations on the Admiral Kuznetsov and Liaoning! If all had gone to plan it would of been the Yak-141 roaring off the Admiral Kuznetsov's and Varyag's deck!
IMPORTANT NOTE! I realise that all these ships have had multiple names over their life but have tried to use the most recent in explanation to avoid confusion!
Last edited by Fedaykin; 30th Sep 2012 at 10:29.
