British attack helicopters operating in Libya (merged)
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British attack helicopters operating in Libya (merged)
Sound the sirens! Mission Creep!! Blimey - here goes another Vietnam at this rate - what is the strategy and what is the end game here? It seems the tail is wagging the dog? Maybe this is why Cameron wants us out of Afghan so soon - to re-deploy to Libya?
Does this mean that fast air has failed and they need close air support on tap? Remind me; didn't we used to have a very capable fast air CAS platform up until a few months ago? Maybe this is posturing ahead of the next round of cuts
CGS 'Look, we can provide CAS quicker and have greater permanence than Typhoon, therefore fund more AH and ditch the RAF'
Playing devils advocate of course....
Does this mean that fast air has failed and they need close air support on tap? Remind me; didn't we used to have a very capable fast air CAS platform up until a few months ago? Maybe this is posturing ahead of the next round of cuts
CGS 'Look, we can provide CAS quicker and have greater permanence than Typhoon, therefore fund more AH and ditch the RAF'
Playing devils advocate of course....
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Red On, Green On
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My point being, that apache is not exactly the most marinised of platforms. Yes you can jump off a ship, but sustained ops?
So SF will do target recces (and have been already, probably) and will soon be doing a JTAC role, which is another stage of creep.
How long before the Apaches are land-based in a rebel-controlled area?
I hope 2 Sqn RAFR are working up
Respectfully, I do not concur with the assessment of mission creep, and believe Pious Pilot to have hit the nail squarely on the head. It appears that from the first, the objective has been, no matter the fig leaves of rhetoric presented at the UN, to remove Col Q from power, using the "Arab Spring" unrest as lever/excuse.
Thus, serials and branches to a variety of Op Plans have been sorted through and accepted/rejected in the NATO Headquarters since before the Ops were more than a day or two old.
What is most interesting is the constant denial that getting Colonel Q out of town is the mission, and "protecting civilians" is the rhetoric resorted to time and again.
Attack helicopters may fill in a citical air support gap, but they also present further opportunities for Colonel Q's folks to shoot down a NATO asset, given the environment they typically operate in, which begs the question:
Why has the risk calculus been changed, yet again?
Best wishes to the aircrews who get this duty, and remember what Saddam's boys did to frustrate a large Apache raid/deep attack in 2003.
Colonel Q's forces and supporters may be the enemy, but I get the sense that they are most determined.
Thus, serials and branches to a variety of Op Plans have been sorted through and accepted/rejected in the NATO Headquarters since before the Ops were more than a day or two old.
What is most interesting is the constant denial that getting Colonel Q out of town is the mission, and "protecting civilians" is the rhetoric resorted to time and again.
Attack helicopters may fill in a citical air support gap, but they also present further opportunities for Colonel Q's folks to shoot down a NATO asset, given the environment they typically operate in, which begs the question:
Why has the risk calculus been changed, yet again?
Best wishes to the aircrews who get this duty, and remember what Saddam's boys did to frustrate a large Apache raid/deep attack in 2003.
Colonel Q's forces and supporters may be the enemy, but I get the sense that they are most determined.
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"And where, exactly, are they going to fly from? "
Well THEY think from Ocean
British Army debuts Hellfire at sea | Shephard Group
"British Army debuts Hellfire at sea
May 16, 2011
The British Army has fired a Hellfire missile from an Apache attack helicopter for the first time within a maritime environment.
In a development announced on 13 May by the UK Ministry of Defence (MoD), the missiles were fired against seaborne targets from HMS Ocean, the Royal Navy’s (RN’s) largest warship, and the platform on which the Army Air Corps (AAC) attack helicopter force at sea is based.
The exercise, executed near Gibraltar by the 656 Squadron from 4 Regiment AAC, proved the capability of the AH-MK1 ‘to operate and strike from the sea’.
‘In total, 550 rounds of 30mm and nine radar-guided Hellfire missiles were fired, achieving a 100% strike rate,’ an MoD statement said.
‘Today we proved that Apache can operate effectively from a Royal Navy ship, transporting munitions from the ship’s magazine, aircraft upload, launch, firing and then recovering to HMS Ocean,’ commented Maj Mike Neville, commander of the 656 Squadron onboard HMS Ocean.
The exercise followed weeks of intensive training from the squadron that will allow them to operate by both day and night.
‘HMS Ocean is the UK’s only dedicated amphibious helicopter carrier and it is fitting that we provided the platform from which the Army Air Corps have made history,’ Capt Andrew Betton, Commanding officer of HMS Ocean added.
‘656 Squadron have fully integrated themselves onboard the ship and are an integral part of HMS Ocean’s ship’s company.’"
Well THEY think from Ocean
British Army debuts Hellfire at sea | Shephard Group
"British Army debuts Hellfire at sea
May 16, 2011
The British Army has fired a Hellfire missile from an Apache attack helicopter for the first time within a maritime environment.
In a development announced on 13 May by the UK Ministry of Defence (MoD), the missiles were fired against seaborne targets from HMS Ocean, the Royal Navy’s (RN’s) largest warship, and the platform on which the Army Air Corps (AAC) attack helicopter force at sea is based.
The exercise, executed near Gibraltar by the 656 Squadron from 4 Regiment AAC, proved the capability of the AH-MK1 ‘to operate and strike from the sea’.
‘In total, 550 rounds of 30mm and nine radar-guided Hellfire missiles were fired, achieving a 100% strike rate,’ an MoD statement said.
‘Today we proved that Apache can operate effectively from a Royal Navy ship, transporting munitions from the ship’s magazine, aircraft upload, launch, firing and then recovering to HMS Ocean,’ commented Maj Mike Neville, commander of the 656 Squadron onboard HMS Ocean.
The exercise followed weeks of intensive training from the squadron that will allow them to operate by both day and night.
‘HMS Ocean is the UK’s only dedicated amphibious helicopter carrier and it is fitting that we provided the platform from which the Army Air Corps have made history,’ Capt Andrew Betton, Commanding officer of HMS Ocean added.
‘656 Squadron have fully integrated themselves onboard the ship and are an integral part of HMS Ocean’s ship’s company.’"
‘Today we proved that Apache can operate effectively from a Royal Navy ship, transporting munitions from the ship’s magazine, aircraft upload, launch, firing and then recovering to HMS Ocean,’ commented Maj Mike Neville, commander of the 656 Squadron onboard HMS Ocean.
US Army aircraft have been doing that sort of thing for decades now. Even cutsy little Kiowas dunnit. I wonder if the Apaches are flying around at naught feet in the dark while they do this...as hiding from Zeus's requires that.
If they are an integral part of the Ocean....what kind of hat, hat badge, and uniform are they wearing? Do the Army types stand to toast the Queen aboard ship? How does one determine the seating arrangement in the Ward Room.....do the Ruperts bring their Serviette Rack along with them? This makes for an interesting situation I bet?
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to what extent were the Scouts / Gazelles / Lynx of 3CBAS carrier integrated?
Were they capable of operating from ships like this or did they have to be based ashore?
And weren't 847 supposed to be getting Apaches to replace their Lynx?
Were they capable of operating from ships like this or did they have to be based ashore?
And weren't 847 supposed to be getting Apaches to replace their Lynx?
Australia will send Tigers in mmmmmmmmmm about 2030 when they come on-line.....
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I hope 2 Sqn RAFR are working up
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Re the Aust Tigers, a bit of both. They will resolve any technical issues
in the future, not sure they will overcome the politicians reluctance to send
them into harm ways and use them to remotely kill people.
in the future, not sure they will overcome the politicians reluctance to send
them into harm ways and use them to remotely kill people.
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Quote;
"If they are an integral part of the Ocean....what kind of hat, hat badge, and uniform are they wearing? Do the Army types stand to toast the Queen aboard ship? How does one determine the seating arrangement in the Ward Room.....do the Ruperts bring their Serviette Rack along with them? This makes for an interesting situation I bet?"
I hope they have more important things to occupy their minds!
"If they are an integral part of the Ocean....what kind of hat, hat badge, and uniform are they wearing? Do the Army types stand to toast the Queen aboard ship? How does one determine the seating arrangement in the Ward Room.....do the Ruperts bring their Serviette Rack along with them? This makes for an interesting situation I bet?"
I hope they have more important things to occupy their minds!
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Mission creep? Naaaah. I recount endless days doing stupid 'Estimates' of this and that, trying to identify 'centres of gravity', COAs, DPs etc etc. Almost without exception we came up with the "knock his block off" solution. 
Look on the bright side , a relocation from Afghanistan to Libya will help the AT fleet.
PS. I also recollect attending an early planning meeting for shoving AH64s on Ocean in the late 90's.
Look on the bright side , a relocation from Afghanistan to Libya will help the AT fleet.
PS. I also recollect attending an early planning meeting for shoving AH64s on Ocean in the late 90's.