Tornado GR4 - Given a hard time?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Up North
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tornado GR4 - Given a hard time?
Guys/Girls
I shall start with the fact that this is not a troll!!!
Having worked for a good few years on the GR4 and F3 and lost many a day to their foibles!!! I still have a great soft spot for the pair of them, with the recent demise of the F3 and the general kicking it has received
. It has got me thinking, is the GR4 going to get the same treatment despite the fact that it has plodded away over the years and achieved pretty much all that has been asked of it and its air/ground crews. I don't want to this to turn into a 'Harrier was better and cheaper thread' just a bit a poll as the thoughts on the GR4?
I shall start with the fact that this is not a troll!!!
Having worked for a good few years on the GR4 and F3 and lost many a day to their foibles!!! I still have a great soft spot for the pair of them, with the recent demise of the F3 and the general kicking it has received
. It has got me thinking, is the GR4 going to get the same treatment despite the fact that it has plodded away over the years and achieved pretty much all that has been asked of it and its air/ground crews. I don't want to this to turn into a 'Harrier was better and cheaper thread' just a bit a poll as the thoughts on the GR4?
I'll rise to your challenge Trim Stab - how many Harrier and Tornado hours do you have? Where did you get your figures from (please don't say from that muppet Tourist and his vitriolic drivel)?
Obviously the Harrier is not cheaper or better (unless you're talking about going backwards at Airshows that is a particularly useful tactic for operations!). STOVL is about the only area that Harrier has the advantage - whoopy do, only really ever used in the Falklands, all recent conflicts have been conventional take offs.
Sturb199 - in answer to you're question, the venerable "Fin" did/does great work in Iraq (1st time and 2nd time), Kosovo, Afghanistan and now Libya. It's pretty hard to knock now that the crews have stopped trying to fly it like a Vulcan (once that mafia had left by the late 90s).
The B Word
Obviously the Harrier is not cheaper or better (unless you're talking about going backwards at Airshows that is a particularly useful tactic for operations!). STOVL is about the only area that Harrier has the advantage - whoopy do, only really ever used in the Falklands, all recent conflicts have been conventional take offs.
Sturb199 - in answer to you're question, the venerable "Fin" did/does great work in Iraq (1st time and 2nd time), Kosovo, Afghanistan and now Libya. It's pretty hard to knock now that the crews have stopped trying to fly it like a Vulcan (once that mafia had left by the late 90s).
The B Word
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Up North
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's pretty hard to knock now that the crews have stopped trying to fly it like a Vulcan (once that mafia had left by the late 90s).
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Longton, Lancs, UK
Age: 80
Posts: 1,527
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
sturb
Expect a rash of inane replies from young numpties (and not so young) that infect these sort of threads. A remark for which I'll be flamed. Others will be more helpful.
Expect a rash of inane replies from young numpties (and not so young) that infect these sort of threads. A remark for which I'll be flamed. Others will be more helpful.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: scotland
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To be honest (and this is from an Engineer's point of view) have always found the GR4 to be a loveable rogue, whoever designed certained aspects quite clearly thought about the maintenance aspects, easy access panels, quick rectification though LRUs etc. However the ECS system for example is an utter dog's dinner
and less said about the engines the better (disabled by a Navigator's map........typically on a Friday afternoon
).
Still, excluding BAe's attempt to charge the earth for every nut and bolt
not a bad wee thing.
ps. Harriers were better.
and less said about the engines the better (disabled by a Navigator's map........typically on a Friday afternoon).Still, excluding BAe's attempt to charge the earth for every nut and bolt
not a bad wee thing.ps. Harriers were better.
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Chippenham, Wilts
Age: 75
Posts: 297
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The B word
"It's pretty hard to knock now that the crews have stopped trying to fly it like a Vulcan (once that mafia had left by the late 90s)."
Yes, I would also like an explanation please
3P
Yes, I would also like an explanation please
3P
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Hampshire physically; Perthshire and Pembrokeshire mentally.
Posts: 1,611
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's pretty hard to knock now that the crews have stopped trying to fly it like a Vulcan (once that mafia had left by the late 90s)."
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Great Britain
Age: 51
Posts: 340
Likes: 0
Received 11 Likes
on
5 Posts
I'm pretty sure I know what he's hinting at. When the Vulcan chaps came to the Tonka they flew similar tactics to how they'd been doing previously - low level "on time and track" somewhat inflexible attacks. Once they started flying more flexibly using multi-axis, multi-level and flexible attacks they fared far better on Cope Thunder and Red Flag against the newer Air Defence tactics - a tactic that became a blurring between CAS, BAI and Strike.
Not a dig at the Vulcan force, just a statement that things moved on (for the better IMHO).
Cpl Clott
Not a dig at the Vulcan force, just a statement that things moved on (for the better IMHO).
Cpl Clott
Clott et al
Exactly! It was the same for the F3 with some of the Lightning and Phantom mates (Jehovah!) introducing things that didn't make the best of what the newer jet could deliver. As you say, not a dig at the legacy aircraft type and I guess the Typhoon force had/has the same problem with ex-Tornado (both types), Jaguar and Harrier mates with "when I was on...we used to do...".
That said, some read accross of tactics can be a good thing as well as long it is not a mafia. I also remember that the ex-Bucaneer mates made the transition to Tornado far better than the Vulcan mates (which given their experience isn't that surprising).
The B Word
Exactly! It was the same for the F3 with some of the Lightning and Phantom mates (Jehovah!) introducing things that didn't make the best of what the newer jet could deliver. As you say, not a dig at the legacy aircraft type and I guess the Typhoon force had/has the same problem with ex-Tornado (both types), Jaguar and Harrier mates with "when I was on...we used to do...".
That said, some read accross of tactics can be a good thing as well as long it is not a mafia. I also remember that the ex-Bucaneer mates made the transition to Tornado far better than the Vulcan mates (which given their experience isn't that surprising).
The B Word
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: NOTTINGHAM
Posts: 758
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Having grown up with the Bucc, I don't think it's fair to lambaste the Tornado Force alone about its V-Force incomers! At one point, HQ1Gp which had governed the V-Force and was now running the Bucc Force amongst others, decided that it would be a good idea to retrofit a sextant in the Bucc's rear cockpit!! Needless to say that never happened! I recall also, as a Bucc OCU Nav instructor, sitting behind an ex-V-Force pilot who opened the cockpit conversation with 'Captain to Navigator' - he didn't ever do it again!!!!! He was the original VFW!
However, it is true to say that there was a large V-Force intake to the early GR1 sqns and many found it difficult to adapt from the 'strategic' Vulcan to the 'tactical' Tornado. I was in Germany, late 80s, on the GR1 with a number of them who attempted to drive the Tornado just like they had the V-Bomber. Those pilots flew it straight and level and some ex-V-Force navs never looked out the window but followed the green writing as if it was their God! However, many, like 3-Putt, were not in that category and were as tactically aware as those who had come off FJs previously. The others lolled about in the doldrums of the squadron and didn't advance much beyond 2-ship lead!
Foldie
However, it is true to say that there was a large V-Force intake to the early GR1 sqns and many found it difficult to adapt from the 'strategic' Vulcan to the 'tactical' Tornado. I was in Germany, late 80s, on the GR1 with a number of them who attempted to drive the Tornado just like they had the V-Bomber. Those pilots flew it straight and level and some ex-V-Force navs never looked out the window but followed the green writing as if it was their God! However, many, like 3-Putt, were not in that category and were as tactically aware as those who had come off FJs previously. The others lolled about in the doldrums of the squadron and didn't advance much beyond 2-ship lead!
Foldie
Last edited by foldingwings; 14th May 2011 at 09:08. Reason: Spelling police have PM'd me!!!!!!!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Remember too that the GR1 took part in the Giant Voice Strategic bombing competitions. Someone clearly thought it was a strategic bomber, bit like an FB111 Lite. Did rather well too even at high level bombing on 6 hour missions.
Did rather too well IIRC and was not invited a second time.
Did rather too well IIRC and was not invited a second time.
At the end of the day its all down to cost , not long ago we had tonka/jaguar/harrier all doing different jobs with some overlap and as mentioned before once we'd lost the vulcan the tonka took on that role. Also look at cost history when you look at running costs in the tonka/harrier debate. Its only in the last few years that things changed to get a more cost effective maint system going that got the harrier costs down and availability up.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 33,021
Received 2,902 Likes
on
1,243 Posts
Didn't they melt down a F3 Tonka to make a bell? that wouldn't ring true either...... rather apt to end as a bell that's ring isn't quite right.....
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: England
Posts: 908
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There was a GR4 over Spadeadam on Thursday 14.15 very low level. So impressive it was that my off roader left the A69 as i watched, and entered its natural habitat of the open countryside at just under 60mph. Into the garage tomorrow for a £500 repair bill!