Tornado GR4 - Given a hard time?
The more you slag off an aircraft type, the more stupid you look when it beats you.
The sports version of the Tornado was designed to take out Soviet bomber hordes, not do knifefights in telephone boxes. Would I have preferred it if the RAF had bought F-14/15? Yes, of course, but they didn't.
My first DACT against the F4 (flown by 2 QWIs) was a draw every split, and there are quite enough navs who will tell you I was a stunningly average pilot. After that it was win every time.
Single seaters? wait till it gets dark/cloudy (70% of the time),or just bring 4+ to the fight, and they lost too.
I think the F3 excelled at low level sweep, which we did lots of in the early days and was bucketloads of fun.
Truth is, RAF aircrew make the best of whatever their Government grudgingly lumbers them with. I felt the Bucc crews probably achieved most with least, but the Norfolk Landshark got dumb bombs on target very accurately, and won the early comps so well that they were, in true US style, never invited back.
The sports version of the Tornado was designed to take out Soviet bomber hordes, not do knifefights in telephone boxes. Would I have preferred it if the RAF had bought F-14/15? Yes, of course, but they didn't.
My first DACT against the F4 (flown by 2 QWIs) was a draw every split, and there are quite enough navs who will tell you I was a stunningly average pilot. After that it was win every time.
Single seaters? wait till it gets dark/cloudy (70% of the time),or just bring 4+ to the fight, and they lost too.
I think the F3 excelled at low level sweep, which we did lots of in the early days and was bucketloads of fun.
Truth is, RAF aircrew make the best of whatever their Government grudgingly lumbers them with. I felt the Bucc crews probably achieved most with least, but the Norfolk Landshark got dumb bombs on target very accurately, and won the early comps so well that they were, in true US style, never invited back.
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The B Word
I didn't really want to get involved in a pissing contest but hey ho whatever.
In my experience, along with the likes of the vastly more experienced FJ QWI back seaters such as Foldingwings, us crossovers from the V force contributed much to the multi role concept of the GR1 in RAF Germany. Indeed during GW1 it was the ex V force input to the problems of medium level "dumb" bombing that enabled us to put some bombs reasonably near to where we wanted them. Radar handling techniques and the application of arithmetical fixes and meterological data interpretation were mostly unknown by the FJ centric QWIs et al, until the problem first arose. I, like most of my ex V force mates lapped up the nav solutions that the aircraft gave us which enabled us to spent as much time as we could looking out.
However, the night/IMC nature of the task was somewhat akin to that on the Vulcan but, was in reality a million nautical miles opposed in operation.
If there was a mafia around in those days it was mainly made up of ex Lightning or Jag mates, all with an axe to grind and mostly with long pockets and short arms.............and also at least the Buccanneer pilots were used to flying with a GIB.
Lastly what, IMHO, made the Tornado force such an effective one was the very ecclectic nature of the make up of the crews as demonstrated between Jan and March 1991.
B Word your personal profile doesn't give away your background so SIUYT!
A proud ex GR1 GIB
Gedgie (aka 3Putt
, or as I like to be known now, Captain of the Wiltshire Seniors golf team)
In my experience, along with the likes of the vastly more experienced FJ QWI back seaters such as Foldingwings, us crossovers from the V force contributed much to the multi role concept of the GR1 in RAF Germany. Indeed during GW1 it was the ex V force input to the problems of medium level "dumb" bombing that enabled us to put some bombs reasonably near to where we wanted them. Radar handling techniques and the application of arithmetical fixes and meterological data interpretation were mostly unknown by the FJ centric QWIs et al, until the problem first arose. I, like most of my ex V force mates lapped up the nav solutions that the aircraft gave us which enabled us to spent as much time as we could looking out.
However, the night/IMC nature of the task was somewhat akin to that on the Vulcan but, was in reality a million nautical miles opposed in operation.
If there was a mafia around in those days it was mainly made up of ex Lightning or Jag mates, all with an axe to grind and mostly with long pockets and short arms.............and also at least the Buccanneer pilots were used to flying with a GIB.
Lastly what, IMHO, made the Tornado force such an effective one was the very ecclectic nature of the make up of the crews as demonstrated between Jan and March 1991.
B Word your personal profile doesn't give away your background so SIUYT!
A proud ex GR1 GIB
Gedgie (aka 3Putt
, or as I like to be known now, Captain of the Wiltshire Seniors golf team)
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Lastly what, IMHO, made the Tornado force such an effective one was the very ecclectic nature of the make up of the crews as demonstrated between Jan and March 1991.
The aircraft? At the time the best mud-moving FJ in the world bar none. Complaints/frustrations? Its legs were not long enough; A marriage of the F3 airframe with bigger drop tanks and the GR1 avionics, if it were possible, would have made a huge improvement. That and the complexities and limitations imposed by the R to S in the early days which meant having the wings in 67 above 400 kts if there were tanks on without o/b stores.
I referred in an earlier post to a certain VFW Nav at Cottesmore. It would be grossly unfair and inaccurate to characterise all in that way. Very many took to the tactical FJ stuff like ducks to water. My Nav did. He had a colourful turn of phrase and would encourage me with the delightful " always remember that if you **** up, the last thing that will cross your mind will be my ****hole".
Happy days and fond memories.
3 Putt
It was generalised comment about a legacy mafia on a new fleet that has been supported by Wingswinger, Corporal Clott, Foldingwings and myself. I apologise for causing personal offence, that was not the intent; I'm sure you were one of the good ones, but there appears to be examples of bad ones as well (as supported by other posters comments).
All I know is that I saw a step-change in flexible tactics from the GR force by the mid 90s, flexibility that I only usually saw from the Bucc/Jag/Harrier force. But hey, what do I know as a 2,000hr AD mate?
The B Word
PS what is SIUYT?
It was generalised comment about a legacy mafia on a new fleet that has been supported by Wingswinger, Corporal Clott, Foldingwings and myself. I apologise for causing personal offence, that was not the intent; I'm sure you were one of the good ones, but there appears to be examples of bad ones as well (as supported by other posters comments).
All I know is that I saw a step-change in flexible tactics from the GR force by the mid 90s, flexibility that I only usually saw from the Bucc/Jag/Harrier force. But hey, what do I know as a 2,000hr AD mate?
The B Word
PS what is SIUYT?
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I'm sure you were one of the good ones
And one of the best party animals!
And one of the regular and best beer consumers!
With an outrageous sense of humour!
And a pretty damned fine golfer too - played for the RAF (or maybe even captained the RAF but my mind wanders these days!)
And, not least of all, a war veteran!
Foldie
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The B word
I guessed that you were generalising so no offence taken as I know none was meant. The issue still rankles to this day mind you.
When I got to TTTE in '84 I was amazed at how accurate the ac was and how much more time I had to look out than I thought would be the case. However, the green writing was OK as long as you kept checking that it made sense and it generally only took one main computer dump to remind one how fragile the navigational redundancy down the back could be. We ex v force nav's in the main did what we were told and tried to fly professionally and be as good a squadron mate as you could be (it was a very steep learning curve for those of us who were ex nav radars, the ex nav plotters had a bit of a head start although we were more experienced at operating the radar).
The tactics were driven by the QWIs and Flt Cdrs (mainly ex Jag and Bucc I don't think we had any "Bona mates") and tended to be sensible bearing in mind the task in RAFG which was DAY/NIGHT/IMC TFR with a modicum of VFR big formation stuff. The early emphasis was on rapid, IMC compatible plans with 4-8 ac formations and generally trundling around southern Germany looking for a fight. All good fun but, not a lot of use when the balloon went up. In the UK it was different in that there were bomb comps and tanking to be had so that allowed different personalities and backgrounds to come to the fore.
I suppose the point I allude to is that there are mafias and cliques in every force but I don't think the ex v-force w*****s were the most anally disruptive or rude.
SIUYT was derogatory statement, remembered at 1030 last night, not appropriate for this sensible forum me thinks!
PS. Foldwings slightly exaggerates the case as I slowed down a lot when I reached 60. I learned a lot from him though, about a lot of subjects, some to do with flying and some to do with sparrows and singing!
PPS. If only we had the kit that the GR4 crews have now.
Anyhoo I can't spend any more time on this as I have a golf tournament, from Majorca, to watch.
All the best
Jerry G
When I got to TTTE in '84 I was amazed at how accurate the ac was and how much more time I had to look out than I thought would be the case. However, the green writing was OK as long as you kept checking that it made sense and it generally only took one main computer dump to remind one how fragile the navigational redundancy down the back could be. We ex v force nav's in the main did what we were told and tried to fly professionally and be as good a squadron mate as you could be (it was a very steep learning curve for those of us who were ex nav radars, the ex nav plotters had a bit of a head start although we were more experienced at operating the radar).
The tactics were driven by the QWIs and Flt Cdrs (mainly ex Jag and Bucc I don't think we had any "Bona mates") and tended to be sensible bearing in mind the task in RAFG which was DAY/NIGHT/IMC TFR with a modicum of VFR big formation stuff. The early emphasis was on rapid, IMC compatible plans with 4-8 ac formations and generally trundling around southern Germany looking for a fight. All good fun but, not a lot of use when the balloon went up. In the UK it was different in that there were bomb comps and tanking to be had so that allowed different personalities and backgrounds to come to the fore.
I suppose the point I allude to is that there are mafias and cliques in every force but I don't think the ex v-force w*****s were the most anally disruptive or rude.
SIUYT was derogatory statement, remembered at 1030 last night, not appropriate for this sensible forum me thinks!
PS. Foldwings slightly exaggerates the case as I slowed down a lot when I reached 60. I learned a lot from him though, about a lot of subjects, some to do with flying and some to do with sparrows and singing!
PPS. If only we had the kit that the GR4 crews have now.
Anyhoo I can't spend any more time on this as I have a golf tournament, from Majorca, to watch.
All the best
Jerry G
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B Word
Darren Clarke won after the Bristol lad bogied 5 of the last six holes.
Now where was I? Oh yes, B Word, when I first joined up I wanted to be an Air Defender and to be able to fight a supersonic battle of wits, only problem was after the neurological checks the doc's reckoned I could only give them half a battle......... Boom Boom!
JG
Now where was I? Oh yes, B Word, when I first joined up I wanted to be an Air Defender and to be able to fight a supersonic battle of wits, only problem was after the neurological checks the doc's reckoned I could only give them half a battle......... Boom Boom!
JG
3 Putt
Thanks for the info and for making it clearer. Please excuse me not giving away who I am as I have a bit more service left in me.
I always wanted to be in the RAF in the late 60s/early 70s - Vulcan would certainly have been on my preference list. I did some AVRO time on BBMF along with some of the ex-V Force types; all of them great mates.
Tornado GR4 given a hard time?
Going back to the start of the thread, the GR1 was finished by the time Gulf War 1 came along - the poor old F3 was nowhere near ready. Tasking it to fly CAPs on the Saudi/Iraq border within a week of Saddam going into Kuwait was nuts - no defensive aids, a RADAR which would not more times than it would and a missile that got about 3 miles ahead of you prior to reaching the merge!
That is why the F3 took so much banter early on; once again we accepted a British aircraft into service that just wasn't finished. Even by the time Stage 1+ came along (chaff/flares and a better RADAR but no self protection jammer) we still couldn't be risked on sweep. We didn't get a decent jammer until half way through the Balkans in the mid 90s. After that things were good but the reputation of the F3 was tarnished and took another 5 years to undo. The GR never had to go through this and that is why it has a deserved reputation of doing well at what it has turned its hand to.
On the subject of reputation, we nearly made the same mistake with Typhoon recently by sending it when it wasn't quite ready. What's the common denominator? An aerospace company in the North West of the UK failing to deliver (F2/F3, GR5 and MRA4 - need I say more?) and air officers keen to get their products "blooded" so they get given a seat on the Board of the very same company.
The B Word
Thanks for the info and for making it clearer. Please excuse me not giving away who I am as I have a bit more service left in me.
I always wanted to be in the RAF in the late 60s/early 70s - Vulcan would certainly have been on my preference list. I did some AVRO time on BBMF along with some of the ex-V Force types; all of them great mates.
Tornado GR4 given a hard time?
Going back to the start of the thread, the GR1 was finished by the time Gulf War 1 came along - the poor old F3 was nowhere near ready. Tasking it to fly CAPs on the Saudi/Iraq border within a week of Saddam going into Kuwait was nuts - no defensive aids, a RADAR which would not more times than it would and a missile that got about 3 miles ahead of you prior to reaching the merge!
That is why the F3 took so much banter early on; once again we accepted a British aircraft into service that just wasn't finished. Even by the time Stage 1+ came along (chaff/flares and a better RADAR but no self protection jammer) we still couldn't be risked on sweep. We didn't get a decent jammer until half way through the Balkans in the mid 90s. After that things were good but the reputation of the F3 was tarnished and took another 5 years to undo. The GR never had to go through this and that is why it has a deserved reputation of doing well at what it has turned its hand to.On the subject of reputation, we nearly made the same mistake with Typhoon recently by sending it when it wasn't quite ready. What's the common denominator? An aerospace company in the North West of the UK failing to deliver (F2/F3, GR5 and MRA4 - need I say more?) and air officers keen to get their products "blooded" so they get given a seat on the Board of the very same company.
The B Word
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B Word
I don't think that your timeline is quite accurate there unless you are suggesting that the GR1 was useless rather than finished!
I was Staneval (W) at Bruggen when Saddam invaded Kuwait and was tasked by the Staish to select and train the first 12 crews who were to deploy with GR1s to Bahrain on 28 Dec 90! The GR1 and those crews did deploy and the GR1 was at the forefront of the Air Assault that commenced on 17 Jan 91! GR4 was a lot later!
Foldie
the GR1 was finished by the time Gulf War 1 came along
I was Staneval (W) at Bruggen when Saddam invaded Kuwait and was tasked by the Staish to select and train the first 12 crews who were to deploy with GR1s to Bahrain on 28 Dec 90! The GR1 and those crews did deploy and the GR1 was at the forefront of the Air Assault that commenced on 17 Jan 91! GR4 was a lot later!
Foldie
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(mainly ex Jag and Bucc I don't think we had any "Bona mates")
F3 was rapidly, perhaps even desperately made ready for GW1. New stick top, new programs in everything, HAVEQUICK and so on. The radio performance trials and airborne operating procedures check were done in an hour, by a first tourist - me!
I don't think we were ready,kit-wise.
I don't think we were ready,kit-wise.
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Wingswinger
Sorry to have made that obviously wrong assertion. However, I was liimting my scope to the 4 Sqns at Bruggen between '85 and '97. We must know each other if you were on 14 Sqn?
Foldie, can you help me out with who he might be? Also read your PM's
3P
Foldie, can you help me out with who he might be? Also read your PM's
3P
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(mainly ex Jag and Bucc I don't think we had any "Bona mates")
F3 was rapidly, perhaps even desperately made ready for GW1. New stick top, new programs in everything, HAVEQUICK and so on.
Agreed, and most of the mods just made the aircraft do what it was supposed to do. Thus they were easy to adapt to, individually. But add NVGs etc and there was no way we could be comfortable we had even the right tactics. Wiser heads than me were saying we could at least have had the switches in (e.g. fluff & chairs), so we could have been practiced at hitting the right buttons, even if the expensive stuff wasn't fitted for a while/till the balloon went up.
...and deployed NBC ops hadn't even been considered.
I still feel F3 wasn't ready.
...and deployed NBC ops hadn't even been considered.
I still feel F3 wasn't ready.
Fishtale - if the chaff and flares were tacked on in super quick time so well, why, oh, why did you fit AN/ALE-40 that didn't work first time around? It wasn't until the Chemring 55mm flares were fitted with a new dispenser that it worked satisfactorly? And whilst I'm at it, pilot stick tops and nav's hand controllers are nice to haves - defensive aids are a must!
Likewise!
LJ
I still feel F3 wasn't ready
LJ
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Fishtale - if the chaff and flares were tacked on in super quick time so well, why, oh, why did you fit AN/ALE-40 that didn't work first time around?