Tornado GR4 - Given a hard time?
Gladrag
They may have functioned but they certainly did not work. The flares in the AN/ALE-40 were too small to offer a decent IR counter to RB199's temperature range - their J2S was insufficient to offer protection.
LJ
They may have functioned but they certainly did not work. The flares in the AN/ALE-40 were too small to offer a decent IR counter to RB199's temperature range - their J2S was insufficient to offer protection.
LJ
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From the ground dwelling bottom feeding pongo perspective, the GR4 is a sound bit of kit - sorry aircraft.
Should the decision ever have been either GR4 v Harrier - No. But money had to be saved and one had to go. The GR4 was probably the better option IMO due to the fact that it does the big bomb stuff (Stormshadow), excellent ISR (RAPTOR) and yet is a capable CAS platform (PW iv and gun - and with DMS Brimstone - enough said!) - it's certainly proving its worth in Afghan particularly and also now Libya.
Furthermore, it has 2 crew which from a Forward Air Controller's perspective is key - you get to talk constantly with the Nav about the task whilst the pilot does the flying / airspace bit. With the harrier, on ops, being told to 'wait' while an aircraft or airspace snag was sorted (although acknowledged crucial) was a bind when you're in a TIC. Aircrew have a huge capacity, however, in my humble opinion, 1 x harrier mate does not equal 2 x GR4 mates - for what it's worth.
If I’m honest, LAND should have lost more in the SDSR iot save the harrier, while keeping the GR4.
Should the decision ever have been either GR4 v Harrier - No. But money had to be saved and one had to go. The GR4 was probably the better option IMO due to the fact that it does the big bomb stuff (Stormshadow), excellent ISR (RAPTOR) and yet is a capable CAS platform (PW iv and gun - and with DMS Brimstone - enough said!) - it's certainly proving its worth in Afghan particularly and also now Libya.
Furthermore, it has 2 crew which from a Forward Air Controller's perspective is key - you get to talk constantly with the Nav about the task whilst the pilot does the flying / airspace bit. With the harrier, on ops, being told to 'wait' while an aircraft or airspace snag was sorted (although acknowledged crucial) was a bind when you're in a TIC. Aircrew have a huge capacity, however, in my humble opinion, 1 x harrier mate does not equal 2 x GR4 mates - for what it's worth.
If I’m honest, LAND should have lost more in the SDSR iot save the harrier, while keeping the GR4.
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ADUX
On behalf of my Tonka brethren I humbly thank you for your post and hope we can continue to support land as well you deserve.
Keep it up, stay safe.
TTH
On behalf of my Tonka brethren I humbly thank you for your post and hope we can continue to support land as well you deserve.
Keep it up, stay safe.
TTH
ADUX - many thanks, your words are greatly appreciated by those of us who tried to help you guys and were roundly and repeatedly told by ignorant idiots that we really weren't doing such a good job. That hurts when you've heard the bullets passing by the guy you're talking to on the radio, dropped something to try to help but then had to bugger off and got no feedback. Stay safe.
3-Putt - it was down to you and several others on 17(F) that I very quickly decided I did not want promotion and aspired to Spec Aircrew. Thanks m8 (ducks in anticipation of incoming). One of the best decisions I ever made.
Someone posted earlier the key thing for me: dioesn't matter whether we are talking Harrier, GR1/4, F3, Bucc, F4, Vulcan, Nimrod or whatever, the difference is the folk that fly and maintain them. THAT is what gives the Govt the ability to punch above its weight in the world. Imagine if we'd had F15/16/18 etc. Same probably applies to our green and dark blue brethren too.
3-Putt - it was down to you and several others on 17(F) that I very quickly decided I did not want promotion and aspired to Spec Aircrew. Thanks m8 (ducks in anticipation of incoming). One of the best decisions I ever made.
Someone posted earlier the key thing for me: dioesn't matter whether we are talking Harrier, GR1/4, F3, Bucc, F4, Vulcan, Nimrod or whatever, the difference is the folk that fly and maintain them. THAT is what gives the Govt the ability to punch above its weight in the world. Imagine if we'd had F15/16/18 etc. Same probably applies to our green and dark blue brethren too.
Even if the GR4 were to retire next year, it must surely have seen more active service than any other RAF fast jet, and set a mark that will be hard to match. Next year is its 30th anniversary, and it will have been deployed on combat ops for 22 of those 30 years (and, of course, the other 8 years saw it holding strike QRA during the Cold War).
When the decision was made to send Tornado to HERRICK there was much over-dramatic grumbling that "troops will die as a result" and "Tornado can't do CAS". Hopefully those responsible have now swallowed their pride and will have the courage to admit they were wrong?
I think the key difference between the Tornado GR force, and other RAF fast-jet fleets past and present, is that the Tornado force has never believed any of its own hype (such as it ever was). It always turned up, adapted where necessary, and did the job. In doing so, it has not gained the recognition it deserves, which might be why the original poster considers that the aircraft has had a hard time. In my opinion, Tornados (of any persuasion) have never been favourites of the specialist press, which for some reason always seemed to have a love affair with the Jag. Other aircraft may have gained more public recognition, but SDSR would appear to show that the decision-makers appreciate the achievements and capabilities of the good old Tonker. Long may she continue - perhaps with pilots in both seats if WSO training really has closed once and for all!
When the decision was made to send Tornado to HERRICK there was much over-dramatic grumbling that "troops will die as a result" and "Tornado can't do CAS". Hopefully those responsible have now swallowed their pride and will have the courage to admit they were wrong?
I think the key difference between the Tornado GR force, and other RAF fast-jet fleets past and present, is that the Tornado force has never believed any of its own hype (such as it ever was). It always turned up, adapted where necessary, and did the job. In doing so, it has not gained the recognition it deserves, which might be why the original poster considers that the aircraft has had a hard time. In my opinion, Tornados (of any persuasion) have never been favourites of the specialist press, which for some reason always seemed to have a love affair with the Jag. Other aircraft may have gained more public recognition, but SDSR would appear to show that the decision-makers appreciate the achievements and capabilities of the good old Tonker. Long may she continue - perhaps with pilots in both seats if WSO training really has closed once and for all!
