Fast Jet Circuits
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Why so high? Blimey, at Townsville we would have pairs of Neptunes break (Fan Pitch) from 100 feet. Legally.
Can you explain why the RAAF SOP at Butterworth in the 1960s was for the Sabre Squadrons to break into the circuit (or perhaps pitch into the closed pattern) DOWNWARDS from 1500' to make 1000' downwind? It seemed to me to be a strange manoeuvre I'd never seen anywhere else.
Flap62 - given the banality of your post I didn't want to waste originality on you
and riposte is the word you were looking for!
and riposte is the word you were looking for!
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Landing on a runway looks gay, full stop.
Now, landing in a wooded clearing to ten foot msc or in a thick dust cloud looks much more cool.
During my life, I have never seen an "operational" FJ 4 ship - the only time I do see it is for practice at their home plate. However, I have seen many 4,6,8 even 10- ship RW insertions in various theatres. So, tell me, how is this colds-war relic manoeuvre still necessary?
Now, landing in a wooded clearing to ten foot msc or in a thick dust cloud looks much more cool.
During my life, I have never seen an "operational" FJ 4 ship - the only time I do see it is for practice at their home plate. However, I have seen many 4,6,8 even 10- ship RW insertions in various theatres. So, tell me, how is this colds-war relic manoeuvre still necessary?
During my life, I have never seen an "operational" FJ 4 ship.
I guess you weren't around for either Gulf War? Some very fast-jet operational flying took place, in case you missed it in your blinkered little world.
Last edited by BEagle; 11th May 2011 at 10:16.
I have seen many 4,6,8 even 10- ship RW insertions in various theatres
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No I wasn't Beagle, well not for the start of the second one anyway. But somebody earlier in the thread said that it is a tactical necessity in a theatre of war and it probably is, I know nothing about it. But, I don't recall seeing a 4 ship lift together, carry out an attack together and then recover together, tactically, within that theatre and having to employ that recovery method for tactical reasons. AFAIK, the majority of our recent missions against our enemies have been launched from friendly nation bases. That includes both GWs.
Hope that clears my ignorant train of thought up a bit.
Hope that clears my ignorant train of thought up a bit.
Thread Starter
A Follow Up...
OK so I think I've got an answer to my original question, as well as started a minor commonwealth war, but here's a minor follow up.
What does the "Initial and Pitch" term refer to? Is the "initial" the roll to 90 degrees and the "pitch" a pull on the stick to tighten the turn and bleed energy?
If it's a yank term I would have thought "Bankin' and Yankin'" a more appropriate one.
Cheers and thanks to all for the entertainment.
Flyer.
What does the "Initial and Pitch" term refer to? Is the "initial" the roll to 90 degrees and the "pitch" a pull on the stick to tighten the turn and bleed energy?
If it's a yank term I would have thought "Bankin' and Yankin'" a more appropriate one.
Cheers and thanks to all for the entertainment.
Flyer.
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What does the "Initial and Pitch" term refer to?
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"I hope you wound the cable in also before you landed. By my guessing I would suggest that you were probably higher than 300 feet unless you had the hook just touching the ground. I am guessing that you needed something heavy to keep the wire straight? So add a couple of feet for that plus the height that would be off the ground and you can see that maybe your height judgement could be questioned."
Are you for real?
A winch wire weight is a few feet high and a crewman is normally a pretty accurate judge of height, it is their job as a winch operator to know how high the cable with a weight attached (normally a winchman shaped weight) is off the ground.
They learn this skill on day one at winch operator school
HG
Are you for real?
A winch wire weight is a few feet high and a crewman is normally a pretty accurate judge of height, it is their job as a winch operator to know how high the cable with a weight attached (normally a winchman shaped weight) is off the ground.
They learn this skill on day one at winch operator school
HG
Last edited by heights good; 11th May 2011 at 15:37.
A WIWOL once told that the IP was about 30 sec out from the threshold at whatever speed a Lightning used to join at......
But easier to use some visually significant feature on the extended centreline, really. Just as long as you don't mis-identify said feature as I once did (wrong old church/castley thing) - and said hello to Withybush aerodrome rather than Brawdy at rather an impressive rate of knots in one of HM's glorious FGA9s. Fortunately no-one complained!
But easier to use some visually significant feature on the extended centreline, really. Just as long as you don't mis-identify said feature as I once did (wrong old church/castley thing) - and said hello to Withybush aerodrome rather than Brawdy at rather an impressive rate of knots in one of HM's glorious FGA9s. Fortunately no-one complained!
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"Well, you warry little fellow, perhaps you should get out of your tent / ditch / floating grey tin box more and see what the rest of the world does?
I guess you weren't around for either Gulf War? Some very fast-jet operational flying took place, in case you missed it in your blinkered little world."
Maybe it was at FL350 and thats why I didn't see all the FJ greatness whilst at 50' and dodging wires, buildings, masts, cranes, mosques, pigeons, kites etc. etc.
Just out of curiosity how many medals do the FJ guys have on average, for all their "very operational flying"
And before anybody gets too excited this is meant firmly tongue in cheek. We all have a job to do and we do it well.
HG
I guess you weren't around for either Gulf War? Some very fast-jet operational flying took place, in case you missed it in your blinkered little world."
Maybe it was at FL350 and thats why I didn't see all the FJ greatness whilst at 50' and dodging wires, buildings, masts, cranes, mosques, pigeons, kites etc. etc.
Just out of curiosity how many medals do the FJ guys have on average, for all their "very operational flying"
And before anybody gets too excited this is meant firmly tongue in cheek. We all have a job to do and we do it well.
HG
Last edited by heights good; 11th May 2011 at 15:38. Reason: To make it read slightly better.
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We all have a job to do and we do it well.
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Foxtrot Alpha18
That was something that the USAF had perfected to a fine art; especially around 4th July... quick visit to Leuchars, usually a 4 ship from Alconbury. Remove golf clubs from the modified Sargent Fletcher tanks, then later, barbecue and party time on the foreshore picnic site.
Good Times...
pp ex 43 groundcrew...
Why not get the best of both worlds? Golf and fast jets!
Could there be anything better???
Could there be anything better???
Good Times...
pp ex 43 groundcrew...
Flyer, this is how it works:
The 'initial point' is 5 nm in the downwind direction (runway heading, not actual wind) from the threshold of the runway you're going to land on.
You set yourself up to approach it usually at a 45 degree angle to the direction you're going to run in towards the airfield (calling left or right initial as appropriate when you're about 30 seconds out), or you might fly a 'straight-in initial' where you fly through the point on your run-in heading.
From there you fly slightly displaced to the deadside (in a normal single-sided circuit set-up, ie not contra-rotating circuits) at fairly high speed, sighting circuit traffic as you go. That's the 'initial' part.
When you have all the traffic sighted, you decide where to cut across from the deadside onto downwind, which is 'the pitch'. You can cut in front of traffic on early downwind if you judge you'll slot in in front of them OK, otherwise you must extend upwind until it's safe to pitch.
The pitch itself is a fairly high-g turn compared to what you'd normally do in the circuit, say 3g and 70 degrees bank for a starter, with idle (and maybe airbrake if it's SOP for the type). This washes off speed quickly and gets you set up for the downwind leg. As speed reduces, so you reduce your g and bank appropriately to end up at correct downwind spacing from the runway at the speed you want (approaching gear speed, normal downwind speed for the type).
Once established on downwind, you add power to maintain the desired speed (hence the noise increase you mentioned), then fly the rest of a normal circuit.
Variations as mentioned could be a low initial for a fan pitch, or a low initial for a low level circuit, or anything you like really. As people have said above, it's an efficient way to get yourself back from higher speeds and into the circuit to minimise the time you spend at low vulnerable speed. It also lets you split a formation easily and get them into proper circuit spacing by using a number of seconds between aircraft pitching out from the formation - say 3 or 4 seconds. Obviously you have to work out who pitches first and how they do it, so as not to pitch into your mate as you go!
A2 can take it from there, no doubt.
The 'initial point' is 5 nm in the downwind direction (runway heading, not actual wind) from the threshold of the runway you're going to land on.
You set yourself up to approach it usually at a 45 degree angle to the direction you're going to run in towards the airfield (calling left or right initial as appropriate when you're about 30 seconds out), or you might fly a 'straight-in initial' where you fly through the point on your run-in heading.
From there you fly slightly displaced to the deadside (in a normal single-sided circuit set-up, ie not contra-rotating circuits) at fairly high speed, sighting circuit traffic as you go. That's the 'initial' part.
When you have all the traffic sighted, you decide where to cut across from the deadside onto downwind, which is 'the pitch'. You can cut in front of traffic on early downwind if you judge you'll slot in in front of them OK, otherwise you must extend upwind until it's safe to pitch.
The pitch itself is a fairly high-g turn compared to what you'd normally do in the circuit, say 3g and 70 degrees bank for a starter, with idle (and maybe airbrake if it's SOP for the type). This washes off speed quickly and gets you set up for the downwind leg. As speed reduces, so you reduce your g and bank appropriately to end up at correct downwind spacing from the runway at the speed you want (approaching gear speed, normal downwind speed for the type).
Once established on downwind, you add power to maintain the desired speed (hence the noise increase you mentioned), then fly the rest of a normal circuit.
Variations as mentioned could be a low initial for a fan pitch, or a low initial for a low level circuit, or anything you like really. As people have said above, it's an efficient way to get yourself back from higher speeds and into the circuit to minimise the time you spend at low vulnerable speed. It also lets you split a formation easily and get them into proper circuit spacing by using a number of seconds between aircraft pitching out from the formation - say 3 or 4 seconds. Obviously you have to work out who pitches first and how they do it, so as not to pitch into your mate as you go!
A2 can take it from there, no doubt.