Fast Jet Circuits

[chopd95]

A different version?

From a time when there were many of them over here:

" Alconberry base, I got five swords, five bah five for a burn on the hot strip n fan"

(translation available for those without O level Spam speak )

[Dengue_Dude]

Well done guys! As a mere slow truckie (in both senses), you've categorically proved that it is possible for two circuits half a hemisphere apart to interlock and risk an ego collision. Bit like Wyton and Alconbury really.

I always thought that run and breaks were such fun and expressed the joie de vivre and mental age of the average jet jock (bearing in mind that the average FJ pilot was above average by definition).

I never even considered there might be an operational reason.

Great fun eh?

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DITYWHAP - you might just find I have more years and hours in military cockpits than you

But it is such fun baiting stovies

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When I was instructing at Valley in 1990 (at SARTU before you get too excited) I was hovering over the golf course at 300 ft carrying out a winch weight check. My height was accurately assessed by the fact the winch cable on a Wessex was 300 ft long and it was all out - the very accurate rad alt was just a confirmation and the bar alt with QFE set also read 300ft.

A pair of hawks broke into the circuit, around the golf course climbing through my level as they did so - the minimum height for run and break was 500 ft climbing to 1000ft.

I called on tower to highlight that they were low and clearly did not appreciate there was a helicopter hovering with 300ft of cable beneath it.

Shortly afterwards, I was ordered to land by SATCO and I subsequently discovered that the 2 pilots were the Stn Cdr and OC Ops! After much bluster on their part and offers to pull the ADR trace, I realised I was onto a loser and wound my neck in.

What was the purpose of their punchy run and break? Safe and expedient recovery of the formation to land????? or just showing off and breaking their own rules? You decide.

[Really annoyed]

I realised I was onto a loser and wound my neck in.

I hope you wound the cable in also before you landed. By my guessing I would suggest that you were probably higher than 300 feet unless you had the hook just touching the ground. I am guessing that you needed something heavy to keep the wire straight? So add a couple of feet for that plus the height that would be off the ground and you can see that maybe your height judgement could be questioned.

[4Greens]

A million light years ago a run in and break was called a 'NATO arrival'

[Wholigan]

As for avoiding threats - you would have to be over-run by the enemy or be at a DOB for this to be a factor - what threats are you facing (ie aircraft or SAMs)? I would suggest that making a recovery to base with enemy fighters in the vicinity would be a ballsey move (and very world war 2); making a recovery with a possible SAM threat - there are other techniques that you might want to consider...

Maybe it would be better if you had read my post very carefully. Firstly, I did say that it was eons ago. Secondly, I did also say that the break rejoin was "originally" done for 2 reasons. Sadly, I failed to define "originally". However, my aim in the post was merely to give some indication of perhaps where and why the break originated, for the interest of those who might be .... err ..... well ..... interested!

I am - of course - quite aware that the "avoiding airborne threats" reason has mostly been overtaken by events, situations and technology. Nevertheless, I betcha there are still some places in this world where it is still a valid method, even if we may not ever fight there.

[DITYIWAHP]

Crab, if your CO and OC Ops did deliberately break from below the proscribed height then they were foolish to carry out such a flagrant breach of their own rules – even though they were probably at 1000 ft when they passed over the top of you and they probably knew there was no confliction; such flying would not be gentlemanly. The chances are that it was really just a trick of perspective – and with no ADR milk to hand we’ll never know. You do, however, beat me for number of years in a military cockpit – but only just…. Did I tell you the one about the helicopter mate who disregarded our local order book only a few weeks ago… It’s a shame to tar everyone with the same brush.

Wholigan, there was no deliberate misinterpretation of your prose intended from my perspective. I think nowadays that there are very few venues where a good old battle break could be labelled as anything other than a good bit of fun, sadly.

I wander if 4 FTS ground school covers the justification for a fast recovery in such detail.


Edited for spelling.

[Arm out the window]

Heli people don't often fly around in 4 ships

Ah, A2, again you should probably speak for your own hemisphere. In my rotary days in this part of the world (as now), 4 or more ship formations were very commonly flown, for tactical reasons of course.

That A2 qual must have been particularly thorough, giving you a seemingly omniscient awareness of all things aeronautical, worldwide. Imagine what you'll be like when you step up to A1!

[Brian Abraham]

Heli people don't often fly around in 4 ships

There was a time when 10 was the standard size.

[Arm out the window]

The huge difference between an Initial and Pitch (I&P) and a VRIAB is that the I&P is a level turn from circuit height, normally 1,000 feet, whereas a VRIAB is a climbing turn from whatever lower height you can get away with.

Again, I beg to differ. A low run-in followed by a climbing pitch to stardard circuit height (intentionally flown, that is!) is still an initial and pitch, sometimes called a fan pitch.

I say these things for the benefit of the poor old original question-asker, who should really know the terminology of his or her own country, particularly as the 'initial and pitch' lingo is enshrined in the Aussie AIP, whereas run-ins and breaks don't have any particular regulatory meaning.

[birrddog]

Heli people don't often fly around in 4 ships

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Really annoyed - yes I was higher than 300ft - 320 ft to be precise - that must have made all the difference to the perspective

[Flap62]

Wholi - I hope you will permit me some lattitude.

Crab, you said

I realised I was onto a loser and wound my neck in.

It is interesting that the above sentence also makes complete sense if you remove the word "onto".

[ICBM]

Flap mate - lmao!

universal answer to questions posed concerning 'why' VRIABs are carried out - BECAUSE WE CAN.

thread closed....no, please..

[pr00ne]

"Never met a pilot who could fly an instrument approach better than one advised by a nav."


Well as we use to say to any nav who was getting bolshy and above his station, I never met a nav who could boast as many hours without a pilot as I could without a nav....

[Geehovah]

Wholigan has it. Its the quickest way to get the formation back on the ground and the safest way to avoid marauding German fighters in the circuit by keeping up fighting speed. For a few heady months in the 70s at Wattisham, the break height was 250 feet.

I just find it takes so much longer in a Cherokee......................................

[Neptunus Rex]

For a few heady months in the 70s at Wattisham, the break height was 250 feet

Why so high? Blimey, at Townsville we would have pairs of Neptunes break (Fan Pitch) from 100 feet. Legally.

[Wander00]

Even Watton in the 60s I am sure we broke at 250', even in T17s

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Flap62

It is interesting that the above sentence also makes complete sense if you remove the word "onto".

as it does if you remove 'onto' and insert 'FJ' between 'a' and 'loser'