Is Pm Cameron Delusional?

[Blacksheep]

A bit of common sense from an American on the radio this morning. Imposing a no-fly zone starts with hostile military action - the destruction of the airfields - before any standing air patrols can be mounted. Who is going to be the first to declare war on Libya? Then the number of aircraft required for such a large country is much more than can be carried on any aircraft carrier. So, which is the friendly country that will host the operation? As the man said, a no-fly policy is a no-no for the time being.

[E L Whisty]

Like This - Do That - spot on. In addition, UKIP is the only British political party that advocates immediate increase of Defence Budget to meet the tasking already placed upon the British MoD and Forces.

The LibDems are crippled by Watermelonitis - scratch a green and you will see the red underneath.

Labour are driven by dislike of people, of each other and of themselves. They just cannot accept what became of 'the movement' when it fell into the hands of Blair and Brown.

The Tories are well to the left, IMHO, of Labour. They are dangerously pro-EU which is a communist inspired conspiracy. The conspiracy is wrapped up in corruption, of course, but the whole thing is obscured by the monumental incompetence of thousands of arrogant, undemocratically appointed career bureaucrats.

David Cameron's big problem is his obsession with 'spin' as he still thinks that he is the Heir to Blair and idolises that evil bastard. If he could resist the temptation to produce a sound bite in lieu of statesmanlike reflection, he would not appear such a delusional tosser.

On the other hand, he was talking days ago (a long time in politics) about a NFZ. As events unfold, more and more 'leaders' are warming to the idea.

So, all in all, he is probably not delusional - just a career politician and about as much use as a chocolate teapot.

[cazatou]

Well, as someone who lives in the"communist inspired conspiracy" I am just about to drive into the local Town to fill my car with cheap fuel and to purchase some of the excellent wine, fruit and vegetables on offer in the local Supermarket at prices well below those in the UK.

It is also comforting to know (as one is "getting on in years") that the Health Service here is recognised as the Best in the World.

[DERG]

stop teasing us!

[Peter Ridley]

The NFZ will not happen because we have no money.
Forces redundancies will happen because we have no money.
We will loose equipment because we have no money.

This country is insolvent as we cannot stop borrowing money yet alone pay off our debts.

We cannot afford offensive ops. We will pull out of Afghanistan and then I am afraid there will be massive cuts and huge redundancies. Start planning your future.

[snagged1]

Cazatou you lucky chap!

Sunfish - interesting to see you lumped Eton into the oxford/cambridge circle and your stance that UK has been going downhill since the 60's... Funny that since 1964 the UK has not had a single PM that went to Eton until DC, before which there were 18 PM's from Eton during the "great" era of this country - maybe something to be said for it?

Old fat one - my apologies for the typo...and no, I didnt go to oxbridge. And this is still a fun thread so everyone smile and look happy please

[draken55]

Off thread but it's now nearly 40 years since the UK joined the EEC. The latter has since turned itself into the EU and expanded dramatically in size and away from just being a trading bloc. Many do not think the EU has that much of an impact on life at the day to day level. That is of course not the case.

Why? Our MP's have approved Treaties since the early 1980's that agreed the transfer of certain powers to Brussels. Many including our current PM now express surprise when EU Law based on such Treaties is pointed out by the European Court and rubber stamped by our "Supreme" Court as the former trumps UK legislation!

Membership of the EU is not a subject put up for discussion by any of the major party's even though our reason for joining has been overtaken by the globalisation of markets.

Caz enjoy the fine wine good food and healthcare in France while you can

In the meantime perhaps this link shows what is going on behind the scenes http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/operatio...nd_a_force.htm

I assume Liam Fox is aware of this EU Naval Force

[Whenurhappy]

Post War (Great War) Managed Decline

Sunfish,

You demonstrate a not-uncommon and erroneous Antipodean view of a Britain that doesn't exist anymore.

Britain (a country that adopted me, I love and have devoted my working life to) has suffered from a crisis in confidence since the end of World War I. It has been characterised by the managed decline of greatness. Arguably it has never recovered from the grevious human and financial losses of the Great War which shook its self image (and acutalite) of invincibility. One just needs to visit any Public School or Oxbridge College and see the In Memoriam boards and weep at the lost of talent and youth (no escaping the fact that these schools and colleges did produce Britain's leaders). At my son's school they lost a hunderd 'old' boys on the first day of the Somme. The youngest had just turned 18; almost all of them Temporary (very temporary) officers. My own College produced Sigfiried Sassoon and three VC winners, amongst many others - all 'bright young things' whose lives were forever changed. Who can blame them that they didn't want Britain to fight more wars and saw the realities of Empire. Just read Orwell's 'Burmese Days' to get a sense of what Empire was all about.

I was reading to my daughter an old Ladybird book on the Kings and Queens of England, and we got to our current Regent. The book used the telling phrase 'By the early 1950s, England (sic) was proud to be poor. It had defeated three tyrants in wartime, made of its old Empire self governing and created a welfare state where there would be no more poverty.' That's quite an achievement.

Britian is well and truely Post Imperial, but commands a huge sector of the global market in language, culture, tourism and finance. Militarily we still carry a punch (what other country - apart from the US - can continuously field 10,000 high quality, well-equipped troops with all the CS and CSS they need?) and in spite of EU cynicism, the UK is well regarded in Brussels. Set all this against the privaledged upbringing (not his fault, btw) of David Cameron and you can see the dichotomy he faces. 20 years ago there would be absolutely no thought of interfering with the 'internal' affairs of Libya, or any other country for that matter. The dirty, internecine Balkans wars changed that. Western democracies simply could not ignore the 'CNN Factor' and Libya, inter alia, is no exception. Perhaps David Cameron's well-meant proposals (amongst a range of other options) was a genuine 'we've got to do something!'

A NFZ seems a good idea until the tactical weeds of disabling the IADS are considered (mind - that doesn't always mean resorting to kinetic means...) ; moreover NFZ over BiH and Kosovo didn't stop the troops on the ground do some truely awful stuff. It did, however, stop Saddam Hussein's ambitions to rebuild his defences. Certainly, news reports indicate that the Libyan people (sic) don't want direct foreign intervention but the problem in Libya is that there is no organised opposition; the opposition has been viral and hitherto leaderless. In this leadership vacuum, Qadaffi might well prevail, although his FJ crews need to improve their bombing accuracy, it seems.

[BOAC]

although his FJ crews need to improve their bombing accuracy, it seems.

- actually I suspect that a lot of people in Libya are happy with it as it is?

[Whenurhappy]

Draken 55

EU, EU...

A keen student of history will realise that the origins of the EU can be traced to US support for various initiatives to 'bind in' strategic materials, principally Iron and Coal. The US openly funded the Economist to promote European unity/integration/call it what you will (As well, of course, as NATO) because they realised, altruistically, that a united Europe that was inexorably interconnected would not slaughter large sections of its population on a regular basis.

The 65 years since WW II has been the longest period of peace in Western Europe since the...oh, 13th Century.

Recent finacial crises in Europe (principally the PIGS economies) could lead to the rise of economic nationalism. Luckily, Angel Merkl is sensible enough to realise the impact of collapsing economies around Europe, and made the Budesbank coffers available to fight the fires and to keep Europe afloat. Do you really want to go back to an internally barricaded Europe?

Oh, and the Supreme Court? Long overdue. Why had it taken so long to realise that there was no seperation between the Legislature and the Judiciary? (ie Members of the House of Lords making and approving laws, and then adjudging on them).

How has EU legislation directly imapcted on you?

[Whenurhappy]

Bombing accuracy

BOAC, in spite of the seriousness of my post, the reference to bombing accuracy was with tongue firmly stuck in cheek!

[maxred]

World Order

The current Western foreign policy dictat resembles a bush fire, as one issue springs up, douse it, by whatever means - generally military which of course rarely resolves the fundamental issues. Poverty, power shift, dictators, food shortage, corruption et al.

None of this, of course, is new. The history buffs can easily show us centuries of examples. What bothers me is that after the rat bag Blair and his infantile dwarves were outed, there was a brief hope that DC would bring a more level attitude to this - look closely at Afghanistan, look closely at the failures of Iraq, stand back and THINK, strategy.

Pressing insolvency appears to have negated any chance of that, instead we appear to be literally throwing the proverbial baby out with the bath water. No clear Foreign Policy, linked to Strategic Defence capability - NOT. Therefore is he delusional? Lost me thinks. Too many problems overwhelm - kill the ducks

[Brian 48nav]

France

Caz; we were living in Tarn & Gers from '06 till a year ago.As the £ diminished in value we topped up with shopping on each trip back home to Blighty.

Fuel was getting more expensive and a year ago petrol95 was cheaper here & diesel just slightly cheaper in France,but not so much that you would bust a gut to have a brimming tank as you hit the ferry.

The wine is OK,but as a Real Ale drinker I was lost over there! Food ummmm French cooking is nowhere near as good as they think it is, they don't seem to realise that the UK has caught up. All our best meals out were chez fellow Brits!

France is a fabulous country and the French are great,BUT there's no place like home,especially since GB went. All I pray is that for the remainder of my life I never see a Labour Government again (bit of an oxymoron!) ; the thought of Hitler lookalike Balls anywhere near power fills me with dread.

Back to thread - give Mr Cameron a break guys - time to judge him is a year or two down the road.

[E L Whisty]

Does anybody share my concern that Cameron seems to model himself on Blair, places presentation before substance and might get us involved in something truly dreadful?

It is my belief that Gadaffi is more of a threat than many appreciate. He is quite capable of killing many thousands of his own people - precisely because Libyans are not his people. Too few people appreciate the tribal nature of a very rich country in which the majority are very poor and Gaddafi's minority supporters are extremely rich. They have too much to lose to give up too readily. They have also been gathering resources for many years and might have some very nasty stuff at hand.

Rather than delivering bellicose soundbites, our 'leaders' should be spending a great deal of effort on getting this right.

[draken55]

Whenurhappy

I was simply highlighting that we are no longer in what we joined and that it was our MP's who agreed to the change in emphasis from a trading bloc to what is more of a cohesive political, economic and monetary Union. To judge from the PM's comments you might believe he still considered Wetsminster to be Sovereign but he knows well that in many areas it is not. Perhaps that's why he wants to be at the fore of foreign policy and defence issues.

Anyway, the EU no longers covers just "Western" Europe. We could not refuse the prize of EU membership to the Eastern European countries after the fall of the Soviet Bloc? Can we refuse it or "Norway" type status to Turkey (a staunch NATO member) or North African countries with close cultural ties to the EU to persuade them to stay with or move to a more democratic "western" style of Government?

Just a thought

[Whenurhappy]

In spite of CFSP, the UK maintains sovereignty where it matters - Foreign Policy and Defence. Neither the EU nor NATO can commit UK personnel to any sort of military operations without express UK approval and there is absolutely no appetite to change this. Moreover, the UK retains the unalieinable right to engage in treaties with other States. In spite of the Daily Outrage headlines, there are no moves to creat a European Army or even European Police Force (the Euro-Gendarmerie is a virtual body, with no powers within Europe).

[cazatou]

Brian48nav

Each to their own - but this is the only place I have ever lived where, in a bout of very severe weather, I have answered the telephone to find the local Mayor on the other end enquiring if the Hamlet had any problems with flooding etc.

[draken55]

Whenurhappy

"there are no moves to create a European Army or even European Police Force"

But as Mr Assange knows, we do have the EU wide arrest warrant!

Are you really sure we really have control over Foreign Policy and Defence? If so what is your view of this? Looks like a move to a Non NATO Naval Force to me. Not saying I am against it but are we being asked if this is the way to go?

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/operatio...nd_a_force.htm

[The Old Fat One]

Draken

You need to decide what it is you're against...

Worldwide extradition treaties exist well above and beyond the EU. And GB has been interdependant on security alliances with other states and multi state bodies since the Roman Empire.

I don't doubt you are anti EU (so am I in some instances) but you need to focus your arguments a little more and stop blaming the EU for stuff that has nothing to do with it, or existed centuries before the EU was dreamed up.

PS See how we get sucked in....does anybody know the whereabouts of the Scottish branch of PPrune Anon? Way too much time on my hands.

[NutLoose]

Well, as someone who lives in the"communist inspired conspiracy" I am just about to drive into the local Town to fill my car with cheap fuel and to purchase some of the excellent wine, fruit and vegetables on offer in the local Supermarket at prices well below those in the UK.

It is also comforting to know (as one is "getting on in years") that the Health Service here is recognised as the Best in the World.

Just a shame the country is full of French people, otherwise it might have been "Eu"topia