Is Pm Cameron Delusional?
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NFZ
Mark25787/Oldgrubber
I had not really considered Akrotiri because of the distance. I can't believe that maintaining an NFZ 1000 miles from base is practical without an incredible level of support. Unless anyone knows better. I thought Malta or Corsica, (NATO), might be possible.
MATELO
I had thought to include money in 'political will'. In all seriousness, could we really not find, say, four/six aircraft and crews plus AWACS? The potential humanitarian situation ought to give it a high priority if we're serious about helping the Libyan people.
Mmitch
I think you're right that AAR is in short supply. Malta is the closest EU country and the distance would minimise need for AAR.
Draken 55.
Even the Telegraph gets it wrong occasionally. I would have thought it a little early to rule an NFZ out, particularly if the US does become involved.
I had not really considered Akrotiri because of the distance. I can't believe that maintaining an NFZ 1000 miles from base is practical without an incredible level of support. Unless anyone knows better. I thought Malta or Corsica, (NATO), might be possible.
MATELO
I had thought to include money in 'political will'. In all seriousness, could we really not find, say, four/six aircraft and crews plus AWACS? The potential humanitarian situation ought to give it a high priority if we're serious about helping the Libyan people.
Mmitch
I think you're right that AAR is in short supply. Malta is the closest EU country and the distance would minimise need for AAR.
Draken 55.
Even the Telegraph gets it wrong occasionally. I would have thought it a little early to rule an NFZ out, particularly if the US does become involved.
What is the current ability of the Libyan Air Force?
I flew against the Egyptians on exercise once. Definitely 'That's Entertainment' rather than serious opposition.
Wouldn't 2x two-ship CAPs do it? With a carrier offshore in case they decide to 'have a go' at the CAPs. Though I doubt we can actually do this on our own.
And would our mate 'I phone Gaddaffi every day' Berlusconi actually let us use Sigonella? I imagine Malta's getting quite full now.
I flew against the Egyptians on exercise once. Definitely 'That's Entertainment' rather than serious opposition.
Wouldn't 2x two-ship CAPs do it? With a carrier offshore in case they decide to 'have a go' at the CAPs. Though I doubt we can actually do this on our own.
And would our mate 'I phone Gaddaffi every day' Berlusconi actually let us use Sigonella? I imagine Malta's getting quite full now.
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The Telegraph article. does suggest that any attempt to get a NFZ approved by means of a Resolution approved by the UN is unlikely to succeed. Neither Russia or China would welcome such a precedent. France is just being France as usual!
I really doubt the USA and others are ready to form another "coalition of the willing" short of firm evidence that the Libyan Air Force is attacking is own civillians. In the meantime the humanitarian issue is perhaps coming to the fore
I really doubt the USA and others are ready to form another "coalition of the willing" short of firm evidence that the Libyan Air Force is attacking is own civillians. In the meantime the humanitarian issue is perhaps coming to the fore
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Draken 55
It does sound a little unlikely in view of what you say about Russia and China. However, I was kinda surprised when the Security Council voted unanimously about Libya as they did over the weekend, so we never know.
I was really looking at the physical practicalities of the UK forming an NFZ sooner than the political position.
It does sound a little unlikely in view of what you say about Russia and China. However, I was kinda surprised when the Security Council voted unanimously about Libya as they did over the weekend, so we never know.
I was really looking at the physical practicalities of the UK forming an NFZ sooner than the political position.
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Boslandew
This has now become a major political issue as the UK could never seek to impose any NFZ itself. One could only be established with UN consent. The earlier UN Resolution was agreed when it seemed the Regime was on the point of being toppled by a popular uprising. That may not now be the case with much of the Libyan Armed Forces, especially the Air Force largely intact.
Re the practicalities, Malta is non-alinged and unlikely to be available as a base for any military action.That leaves Crete, Italy and the SB at Akrotiri plus the USS Enterprise Carrier Battle Group for a NFZ if one was to be agreed as being required. The chances of that are small unless Gaddafi is seen as going beserk against his "rebel" population. A stand off could well suit him just fine. He still has the Funds in his Central Bank with which to buy loyalty and pay his Armed Forces.
The PM and others, especially in the USA, may have been too quick off the mark on Libya. Some backsliding may now follow as events unfold but meantime the humanitarian issue on the borders of the country has come to the fore which in turn will further de-stabilise North Africa as a whole. For example, the last thing Egypt needs is lots of workers returning home to add to it's already high levels of domestic unemployment.
This has now become a major political issue as the UK could never seek to impose any NFZ itself. One could only be established with UN consent. The earlier UN Resolution was agreed when it seemed the Regime was on the point of being toppled by a popular uprising. That may not now be the case with much of the Libyan Armed Forces, especially the Air Force largely intact.
Re the practicalities, Malta is non-alinged and unlikely to be available as a base for any military action.That leaves Crete, Italy and the SB at Akrotiri plus the USS Enterprise Carrier Battle Group for a NFZ if one was to be agreed as being required. The chances of that are small unless Gaddafi is seen as going beserk against his "rebel" population. A stand off could well suit him just fine. He still has the Funds in his Central Bank with which to buy loyalty and pay his Armed Forces.
The PM and others, especially in the USA, may have been too quick off the mark on Libya. Some backsliding may now follow as events unfold but meantime the humanitarian issue on the borders of the country has come to the fore which in turn will further de-stabilise North Africa as a whole. For example, the last thing Egypt needs is lots of workers returning home to add to it's already high levels of domestic unemployment.
I am concerned that earlier today Nutloose may have inadvertently given away the Government latest "Cunning Stunt" (Did I get that right?) aimed at enforcing a "value for money NFZ" over Libya. His photo chillingly shows the actual Sea Prince which is currently being modified by the addition of the Nimrod Flight Refuelling probe shown in the foreground & also by the addition of sidewinders (From spare Nimrod stocks). The Sidewinder firing mechanism has given cause for concern but hardwiring from the above wing stations (a la Jaguar) well secured with Duct Tape (Plenty available due reduction in aircraft numbers) leads directly into the cockpit via the side windows. Much study has resulted in the wiring being attached to an X-Box to enable the firing sequence. (The Sony Play Station being unsuitable).
To overcome the minor annoyance of the Sea Prince having a range of 460 miles & Malta being 200 miles from Tripoli thus giving around 20 minutes on station there are plans to provide the Hercules fleet (Yes ,those three) as Tanker aircraft when they are not repatriating "oilies" from desert locations within the NFZ.
Providing further value for money the Sea Prince acts as its own AWACS with the original three students seats now being taken by two (experienced) Foreign Office observers who will watch for aircraft appearing on either side of the Sea Prince & shout warnings to the Cockpit Crew. The third will broadcast on all TV & Radio Channels pertinent UN resolutions justifying the NFZ.(Equipment loaned by USAF PsyOps)
Finally ,it will painted with "Open Skies" logo's, backing up the "might" with "right", as it were.
A fleet of 3 Sea Prince/Pembroke aircraft is planned to police the NFZ.
A final note to Nutloose as you peer from behind the curtains this evening. They no longer use four wheel drives with blacked out windows due to the cut backs ,so you are looking for a cunningly parked minicab or an Avis Car (1.2 Corsa normally).
Bonne Chance
To overcome the minor annoyance of the Sea Prince having a range of 460 miles & Malta being 200 miles from Tripoli thus giving around 20 minutes on station there are plans to provide the Hercules fleet (Yes ,those three) as Tanker aircraft when they are not repatriating "oilies" from desert locations within the NFZ.
Providing further value for money the Sea Prince acts as its own AWACS with the original three students seats now being taken by two (experienced) Foreign Office observers who will watch for aircraft appearing on either side of the Sea Prince & shout warnings to the Cockpit Crew. The third will broadcast on all TV & Radio Channels pertinent UN resolutions justifying the NFZ.(Equipment loaned by USAF PsyOps)
Finally ,it will painted with "Open Skies" logo's, backing up the "might" with "right", as it were.
A fleet of 3 Sea Prince/Pembroke aircraft is planned to police the NFZ.
A final note to Nutloose as you peer from behind the curtains this evening. They no longer use four wheel drives with blacked out windows due to the cut backs ,so you are looking for a cunningly parked minicab or an Avis Car (1.2 Corsa normally).
Bonne Chance
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"This has now become a major political issue as the UK could never seek to impose any NFZ itself. One could only be established with UN consent."
So WTF is Cameron doing pressing the button on his Buzz Lightyear suit. He is delusional in need of psychiatric help.
Just because Tony Blair is employed by the Bush family does not mean that we automatically get a back up from the U.S. military.
Cameron is insane.
"I am concerned that earlier today Nutloose may have inadvertently given away the Government latest "Cunning Stunt"..."
Maybe someone left that pic on a tube station?
So WTF is Cameron doing pressing the button on his Buzz Lightyear suit. He is delusional in need of psychiatric help.
Just because Tony Blair is employed by the Bush family does not mean that we automatically get a back up from the U.S. military.
Cameron is insane.
"I am concerned that earlier today Nutloose may have inadvertently given away the Government latest "Cunning Stunt"..."
Maybe someone left that pic on a tube station?
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So WTF is Cameron doing pressing the button on his Buzz Lightyear suit.
Nothing changes! I made a point on another thread about the inability of politicians to stop getting involved with "external issues" that could require the threat of force, at the same time they time they were cutting back on the ability to deploy such force.
Post SDSR and bar Afghanistan, the UK was going on a capability holiday. We could therefore "do without" as the FCO/MOD saw no likely threat until 2020. Bingo, North Africa erupts the FCO and PM want to do something. Reduce commitments to match up with reduced force levels? Fat chance, HMG keeps finding more to do.
Nothing changes! I made a point on another thread about the inability of politicians to stop getting involved with "external issues" that could require the threat of force, at the same time they time they were cutting back on the ability to deploy such force.
Post SDSR and bar Afghanistan, the UK was going on a capability holiday. We could therefore "do without" as the FCO/MOD saw no likely threat until 2020. Bingo, North Africa erupts the FCO and PM want to do something. Reduce commitments to match up with reduced force levels? Fat chance, HMG keeps finding more to do.
Last edited by draken55; 1st Mar 2011 at 19:06.
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One group deffo against any NFZ is the People. They don't want any outside help with their revolution.
And I agree. We didn't beak in with Tunisia, Egypt or Bahrain so why now?
And it gets Dave off of the hook.
Last thought. If we're bringing old aircraft out of retirement, could Shuttleworth spare the Gladiator and the Afghan Hind ?
Sir George Cayley
And I agree. We didn't beak in with Tunisia, Egypt or Bahrain so why now?
And it gets Dave off of the hook.
Last thought. If we're bringing old aircraft out of retirement, could Shuttleworth spare the Gladiator and the Afghan Hind ?
Sir George Cayley