You couldn't write the script
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Wow this one set off at a tangent. Getting back to the original point and I'll try to keep it in crewroom language.
Overseas tour vary. I found the allowances during my tours in The Falklands almost too much to cope with. How I ever found the investment opportunities for the 64 pence a day I'll never know. Mind you, apart from beer, on the odd occasion I wasn't on Q, there wasn't much to spend it on.
My tour in RAFG was perfect. LOA was reasonably generous and the tax free perks helped make life comfortable. I went from a destitute Fg Off "pre Maggy" to a relatively wealthy Flt Lt. Competition for those RAFG postings was fierce.
I was also lucky to serve in the USA. In my experience, once there, the LOA allowed a comfortable lifestyle. The downside was it cost an arm and a leg to get there and back. I'd say I was just getting back to a norm about 6 months after arrival. I invested heavily in KD for my Exchange tour. Somehow the original KD I bought didn't fit all those years later. I sold two cars, one of which was only 18 months old, at a serious loss. I then had to replace them at inflated prices on my return. My dog didn't seem thrilled at being left behind and Virgin Economy for a pooch is not cheap. On arrival, there are many costs that fall to the individual. Household electrical items, particularly in the US can be expensive and the allowances don't go close. Inevitably you have to replace the items you carefully stored in UK by accident! Entertainment costs when on an overseas exchange are significant if you represent your Country properly, even if it's fun doing it. Official entertainment allowances are certainly a thing of the past unless you are on the diplomatic circuit. With LOA cut significantly, I'd question how comfortable the lifestyle now is. If we add financial pressure during the tour, overseas service would become a nightmare.
The costs on return are also daunting. The cost to get my house back in order after 3 years of renting was huge. Inevitably, many bills fall due immediately on repatriation. Items such as car tax, utility charges, insurance policies (and its a long list) all fall within a month. How do you sort out a car when MT drop you off at the door? The answer is you pay for a rental car. How do you bridge the gap between arriving home and the arrival of the furniture from storage? You pay for a hotel for a week. The disturbance allowance, whilst welcome, was a drop in the ocean. The "get you there loan" was hugely helpful but the package on return was non existent. The disturbance package has to be more generous if costs are not to fall to the individual. Government shipping of private cars (as the US does) would help. A more flexible containerised removals service where a container arrives at the door would save many of the associated costs and would be cheaper for the Govt and the individual, albeit take longer.
Overall, on both occasions I was significantly out of pocket and had my wife been working in UK it would have been even more costly as her skills would not have been transferrable.
Sympathy was short whenever I discussed these issues. The fact that a tour is in a desirable location magnifies the problem. I can hear the cries of "tough luck" on the Forum even as I bash away at the keyboard. The reality is HMQ could never justify funding many of the inevitable costs, nor can I even justify them. Why, for example, should the Queen replace your carpets that a tenant wore out in your absence? The reality, however, is that they still fall to the personal budget.
Interestingly, not once was I asked to provide feedback on the moves nor were any of my peers. A system which does not listen to "customers" cannot attract future volunteers.
As an aside, in my last job before retirement I was asked to find volunteers for a very attractive post in the USA. The initial reaction, across the board, was hands up i volunteer. The reality was that after consideration (kids school, ageing relatives, houses, jobs), I could not find a single firm bidder. Sad but true.
I'm not sure overseas tours can ever be financially viable and the system will continue to rely on the attractiveness of serving overseas.
Overseas tour vary. I found the allowances during my tours in The Falklands almost too much to cope with. How I ever found the investment opportunities for the 64 pence a day I'll never know. Mind you, apart from beer, on the odd occasion I wasn't on Q, there wasn't much to spend it on.
My tour in RAFG was perfect. LOA was reasonably generous and the tax free perks helped make life comfortable. I went from a destitute Fg Off "pre Maggy" to a relatively wealthy Flt Lt. Competition for those RAFG postings was fierce.
I was also lucky to serve in the USA. In my experience, once there, the LOA allowed a comfortable lifestyle. The downside was it cost an arm and a leg to get there and back. I'd say I was just getting back to a norm about 6 months after arrival. I invested heavily in KD for my Exchange tour. Somehow the original KD I bought didn't fit all those years later. I sold two cars, one of which was only 18 months old, at a serious loss. I then had to replace them at inflated prices on my return. My dog didn't seem thrilled at being left behind and Virgin Economy for a pooch is not cheap. On arrival, there are many costs that fall to the individual. Household electrical items, particularly in the US can be expensive and the allowances don't go close. Inevitably you have to replace the items you carefully stored in UK by accident! Entertainment costs when on an overseas exchange are significant if you represent your Country properly, even if it's fun doing it. Official entertainment allowances are certainly a thing of the past unless you are on the diplomatic circuit. With LOA cut significantly, I'd question how comfortable the lifestyle now is. If we add financial pressure during the tour, overseas service would become a nightmare.
The costs on return are also daunting. The cost to get my house back in order after 3 years of renting was huge. Inevitably, many bills fall due immediately on repatriation. Items such as car tax, utility charges, insurance policies (and its a long list) all fall within a month. How do you sort out a car when MT drop you off at the door? The answer is you pay for a rental car. How do you bridge the gap between arriving home and the arrival of the furniture from storage? You pay for a hotel for a week. The disturbance allowance, whilst welcome, was a drop in the ocean. The "get you there loan" was hugely helpful but the package on return was non existent. The disturbance package has to be more generous if costs are not to fall to the individual. Government shipping of private cars (as the US does) would help. A more flexible containerised removals service where a container arrives at the door would save many of the associated costs and would be cheaper for the Govt and the individual, albeit take longer.
Overall, on both occasions I was significantly out of pocket and had my wife been working in UK it would have been even more costly as her skills would not have been transferrable.
Sympathy was short whenever I discussed these issues. The fact that a tour is in a desirable location magnifies the problem. I can hear the cries of "tough luck" on the Forum even as I bash away at the keyboard. The reality is HMQ could never justify funding many of the inevitable costs, nor can I even justify them. Why, for example, should the Queen replace your carpets that a tenant wore out in your absence? The reality, however, is that they still fall to the personal budget.
Interestingly, not once was I asked to provide feedback on the moves nor were any of my peers. A system which does not listen to "customers" cannot attract future volunteers.
As an aside, in my last job before retirement I was asked to find volunteers for a very attractive post in the USA. The initial reaction, across the board, was hands up i volunteer. The reality was that after consideration (kids school, ageing relatives, houses, jobs), I could not find a single firm bidder. Sad but true.
I'm not sure overseas tours can ever be financially viable and the system will continue to rely on the attractiveness of serving overseas.
Last edited by Geehovah; 13th Mar 2011 at 06:59.
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I would go back to the old Laarbruch days tomorrow 
The 'new car' had more to do with tax free concesions in both fuel and purchase price then being overpaid. Exchange rates had their moments too, and I can recall 9DM-£1 compared to the mean 4.5DM-£1. I for one believe that if you work hard then you deserve to be able to play hard even if 'play hard' is reflected in quality of life. When people make unecessary comments based upon jealousy, my arrogance is aroused; for they really should have tried harder at school or made wiser judgements in the direction of their own lives.
Now where are those rose tinted specs, before I think too much about Tacevals every week and living in a rat infested barn for days on end.....
The 'new car' had more to do with tax free concesions in both fuel and purchase price then being overpaid. Exchange rates had their moments too, and I can recall 9DM-£1 compared to the mean 4.5DM-£1. I for one believe that if you work hard then you deserve to be able to play hard even if 'play hard' is reflected in quality of life. When people make unecessary comments based upon jealousy, my arrogance is aroused; for they really should have tried harder at school or made wiser judgements in the direction of their own lives.
Now where are those rose tinted specs, before I think too much about Tacevals every week and living in a rat infested barn for days on end.....
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Geehovah-are you saying that we should go back to the old Laarbruch days-when the allowances were that generous as to enable one to buy a new car? Perhaps you would wish to serve in kdh? Sorry, but you're personal financial concerns are just that-you have retained a foothold in the housing market, got someone to pay the mortgage, enjoyed an overseas appointment in a nice, FRIENDLY place and now complain that you are a few quid out of pocket because you couldn't get it together on your return! Sorry mate, but everyone in public Service loses (apart from the civil servants)-disturbance is not enough and the allowances may be a bit tight-however, you also reap the benefits of the experience. A typical OC Eng tour at a UK station was generally said to cost the individual 10k-(mid 80s)and that is from personal experience. As to you trying to find someone for a position and no-one committing, perhaps they need to realise that they are in a military service and be told that they are going!
Now-off to Twickers!
Now-off to Twickers!
The OP asked why the system is having trouble finding volunteers for overseas duties. I posted my experiences to explain the practical costs to the individual. Hopefully it's not emotional, certainly not a complaint, merely factual. I also tried to add a few suggestions to improve the position. If others who may be thinking of taking up an overseas posting read the practicalities, they will make an informed choice.
If "everyone loses" really is the situation, maybe Manning really will have to draft unwilling, hopefully wealthy, volunteers into those key overseas representational duties.
Glad to say I've done with my 4 month detachments as I'm retired but I did my fair share over the years. Over 37 years I had plenty of rough to go with the smooth - in fact two weeks on a US Navy warship was enough to finish me off.
Glad Twickers was worth attending!
Last edited by Geehovah; 14th Mar 2011 at 08:06.
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I've not seen the edict yet but I have a few ideas to contribute. Why don't we have an allowance that not only compensates for the directly attributable extra costs of serving overseas but also the associated costs (return family visits, informal representational entertaining and the like), we could call it LOA or something like that perhaps. We could also ensure that everybody feels secure in their careers such that a couple of years overseas is a broadening experience that can be reinvested and gives rise to no concern that individuals are too far away from the places where they need to be to get promoted and ensure their future careers. Certainly, we would need to make sure that there was no uncertainty in the pension package that creates doubts in peoples mind about whether they might want to stay past 2015 and therefore less likely that they would commit to an overseas posting. I might just have something here, I will have a cup of tea while I consider the GEMS submission 
; I would be happy to share the award with anyone who can make other useful suggestions to the author of the original edict.
; I would be happy to share the award with anyone who can make other useful suggestions to the author of the original edict.
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What most people don't see is that many of the jobs overseas, particularly on exchange, are essential to UK interests. Most back home are dazzled by the lights of the US or Germany or wherever the job is located. The hard work and dedication of the incumbents often gets lost in the glitz.
I spent a nominal 3 year tour in the US. That I spent over 120 days a year TDY was lost on anyone but my family. It always seems slightly stingy that LOA was withdrawn after a certain number of days on deployment. Somehow my family still carried on spending at home. Again, no complaint but all may not be what it seems.
If we fail to put good people into those key jobs, wherever they are, the UK suffers. How would multi million pound aquisitions be faring if the wrong people were at the contractors or we didn't give pilots exposure to Gen 5 fighters in advance?
I still say that with better targeted resources we can prevent much of the pain of the move. In any event, individuals should never have to finance the essential costs of moving to a new duty unit, however attractive the location.
As for other bigger topics to discuss, this is after all, a thread on making overseas tours more attractive.
Also, as for the youngsters facing redundancy I'm relieved that a family friend who I coached through his entry to service escaped the axe. I'm well aware of the pressures the kids are facing.
I spent a nominal 3 year tour in the US. That I spent over 120 days a year TDY was lost on anyone but my family. It always seems slightly stingy that LOA was withdrawn after a certain number of days on deployment. Somehow my family still carried on spending at home. Again, no complaint but all may not be what it seems.
If we fail to put good people into those key jobs, wherever they are, the UK suffers. How would multi million pound aquisitions be faring if the wrong people were at the contractors or we didn't give pilots exposure to Gen 5 fighters in advance?
I still say that with better targeted resources we can prevent much of the pain of the move. In any event, individuals should never have to finance the essential costs of moving to a new duty unit, however attractive the location.
As for other bigger topics to discuss, this is after all, a thread on making overseas tours more attractive.
Also, as for the youngsters facing redundancy I'm relieved that a family friend who I coached through his entry to service escaped the axe. I'm well aware of the pressures the kids are facing.
Last edited by Geehovah; 14th Mar 2011 at 20:28.
Geehovah and Londoneye - I second everything that you say. There has to be a holistic approach to allowances- this is what JSP 752 was meant to address - it doesn't! Manning staffs (few who have ever served abroad) need to accept non-traditional reporting changes (qv) and appreciate the positive impact younger, career-driven officers have abroad.
Lunchboxlegend. I agreed that there are wider air power issues that need to be addressed but recalling basic human needs, when the pay packet and the living standards of you and your family are directly affected, this becomes primus inter pares of issues.
Fretus Pennae. I'll ignore your prompting, however, here's some examples over the last year where I have had to dig - sometimes quite deeply - into my pocket:
Lunchboxlegend. I agreed that there are wider air power issues that need to be addressed but recalling basic human needs, when the pay packet and the living standards of you and your family are directly affected, this becomes primus inter pares of issues.
Fretus Pennae. I'll ignore your prompting, however, here's some examples over the last year where I have had to dig - sometimes quite deeply - into my pocket:
- Foreign Staff College 'International Evening'. We Brits had to cater for 150 fellows out of our own pocket (previously REA was available). Limited to a massively diluted Pims Bucket and home-made Chicken Tikka Marsala. A quick vox populare of fellows showed that almost all of them could draw on national funds and resources (the French had foi gras and champagne flown in via their embassy, for example).
- 'National Day' (Sovereign's Birthday). Shared in funding drinks and nibbles.
- Armed Forces Day - self-funded BBQ and drinks for 'diplomatic and host nation military' at the Embassy.
- Staff College Visit to London - a dire reception in Main Building Bahnhofsturmjaegerhalle; each of us then hosted our syndicates at our Clubs, most appologetically trying to paper over Government parsimony.
- Attending repatriation of recovered USAAF crew - floral tribute, mileage etc.
- Remembrance Sunday - mileage and shared cost of lunch reception (only bailed out by Commonwealth colleagues). Luckily an unused wreath was found in a cupboard! 'Sir - soz, no admin order so we can't authorise payment' was the verbatum response.
- Visit by UK 3* - hosted a dinner for him, senior US military rep and spouse and 2 x other Brits. Not ordered to do this, but nor could I leave a 3* to stew in his hotel room, either.
- 'Obligatory' Burns' Night Dinner for our community. Although guests were billed, we few Brits dug into our pocket to cover various costs (sourcing Haggis, pipers etc).
- The frequent cost of baby-sitters, flowers, posh chocs etc for regular events.
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Wheurhappy; similar experiences here, although I was bordering on senile by the time I finally made the overseas plot. I asked for an overseas tour and was posted to RAF Stanley!
I never worried about funding such activities, although I had the advantage of generous US hosts on many occasions. Fun times, happy memories and some of my best friends in the world but you'd struggle to find the Geehovah millions stashed away.
I never worried about funding such activities, although I had the advantage of generous US hosts on many occasions. Fun times, happy memories and some of my best friends in the world but you'd struggle to find the Geehovah millions stashed away.
Whenurhappy,
Given that defence diplomacy is one of the military tasks (or at least it was last time I looked!) are you seriously saying that there is no way of getting official money for the functions you mentioned?
Given that defence diplomacy is one of the military tasks (or at least it was last time I looked!) are you seriously saying that there is no way of getting official money for the functions you mentioned?
There is some money available if you are the DA - I am not but SBO in my current location. The restrictions on its use are extremely tight - ridiculously so. But I have no funds to draw on in my current post apart from a small amentities fund which cant be used for food or alcohol!
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Whenurhappy,
Thanks for your response - you are obviously no spring chicken, but I think you have provided a classic example of where we, as Servicemen and women, are occasionally the authors of our own misfortune.
When resource was reduced, you stepped in with your own money because you felt it was the 'right thing to do'. And now you are mightily peeved about it. But from a higher-level perspective a positive effect for UK plc remains achieved, at a lower cost than before - so all is well.
As I see it, in the current climate, the only way to effect further change is to not subsidise future events, and report the impact upwards. If you are not willing to stop spending your own money, accept the embarrassment of the national policy and push upwards the real impact, I see little point griping on PPRUNE about what really amounts to choosing to spend your own money.
On a more philosophical note, I'd be grateful for your thoughts how the UK benefits from the (lavish?) hospitality provided by other nations to Staff College officers, beyond you individually thinking they're rather good chaps.
Thanks for your response - you are obviously no spring chicken, but I think you have provided a classic example of where we, as Servicemen and women, are occasionally the authors of our own misfortune.
When resource was reduced, you stepped in with your own money because you felt it was the 'right thing to do'. And now you are mightily peeved about it. But from a higher-level perspective a positive effect for UK plc remains achieved, at a lower cost than before - so all is well.
As I see it, in the current climate, the only way to effect further change is to not subsidise future events, and report the impact upwards. If you are not willing to stop spending your own money, accept the embarrassment of the national policy and push upwards the real impact, I see little point griping on PPRUNE about what really amounts to choosing to spend your own money.
On a more philosophical note, I'd be grateful for your thoughts how the UK benefits from the (lavish?) hospitality provided by other nations to Staff College officers, beyond you individually thinking they're rather good chaps.
Dear Fresenius,
The particular Strategic Studies course was attended by high-flying Colonel equivalents, First Secretaries from MFA and other civil servants who are destined for much higher positions than the Brits who attended (we are talking CHODS, FORMINs etc). When in London we were not addressed by a single serving officer; instead by some relatively low-grade (and I might add, low quality) civil servants. A junior minister addressed us at the appalling reception. In DC we were addressed by Adm Mike Mullen in a certain location in the Pentagon (if you've been there you'll know to take a fleece!); in Paris by the Defence Minister and the CHOD, who then mixed with us over champagne. Does it matter? To hell it does! These are guys that in future years the UK may need to call up and ask, 'how about some Access/Basing/Over-Flights permissions?'
To a number of my very good friends that I made on the course, the visit to the UK smacked of a weak, disinterested nation that has turned its back on it global commitments and treats its allies with contempt. Mind you, High Tea at the RAF Club for my syndicate and their ladies went down a storm (self-funded, of course).
With respect to your point about whinging about it on PPrune, all I can say is that all official avenues have been exhausted for funding entertainment (you are probably familiar with the bizarre rules on offering tea, coffee and biscuits in Main Building); additionally I have made my decision to leave a Service that I love and use my experience and contacts that I have garnered in a private capacity - in an environment that sees the value of 'engagement'.
Oh, and a well done for our lads over/near Libya. This is a Right and Just cause.
The particular Strategic Studies course was attended by high-flying Colonel equivalents, First Secretaries from MFA and other civil servants who are destined for much higher positions than the Brits who attended (we are talking CHODS, FORMINs etc). When in London we were not addressed by a single serving officer; instead by some relatively low-grade (and I might add, low quality) civil servants. A junior minister addressed us at the appalling reception. In DC we were addressed by Adm Mike Mullen in a certain location in the Pentagon (if you've been there you'll know to take a fleece!); in Paris by the Defence Minister and the CHOD, who then mixed with us over champagne. Does it matter? To hell it does! These are guys that in future years the UK may need to call up and ask, 'how about some Access/Basing/Over-Flights permissions?'
To a number of my very good friends that I made on the course, the visit to the UK smacked of a weak, disinterested nation that has turned its back on it global commitments and treats its allies with contempt. Mind you, High Tea at the RAF Club for my syndicate and their ladies went down a storm (self-funded, of course).
With respect to your point about whinging about it on PPrune, all I can say is that all official avenues have been exhausted for funding entertainment (you are probably familiar with the bizarre rules on offering tea, coffee and biscuits in Main Building); additionally I have made my decision to leave a Service that I love and use my experience and contacts that I have garnered in a private capacity - in an environment that sees the value of 'engagement'.
Oh, and a well done for our lads over/near Libya. This is a Right and Just cause.
Last edited by Whenurhappy; 21st Mar 2011 at 12:08.
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There is an easy solution, seeing as they cant be @rsed paying for our people any more.
Poster guarantees, in writing, individuals choice of posting for their return tour. And, if the individual so chooses, can stay in this post for another tour, to re-compensate for the disturbance and cost caused by an overseas tour.
Either that, or you re-establish decent LOA where it is needed.
Poster guarantees, in writing, individuals choice of posting for their return tour. And, if the individual so chooses, can stay in this post for another tour, to re-compensate for the disturbance and cost caused by an overseas tour.
Either that, or you re-establish decent LOA where it is needed.
