We want our Nimrod investment back
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If that is the case Biggus then he would know that ...
...whilst taken literally is correct, his intent is bollox. Taken literally a SAR winch-man or winch-op can not do their 'primary role' on any other fleet or an R1 back-ender can not do their 'primary role' on any other fleet
A wetty can use some of his skills (e.g. EO) on certain other fleets (manned and un-manned) whilst dry-guys can go to the E3 and use exactly the same piece of kit as they used just forward of the galley on the MR2. Dry-guys are also comms, Radar and DAS specialists - all skills that can be utilised on other fleets after a course on manipulating the particular kit on those other fleets.
MadMark!!!
Edited to add: Jayand, ITYF = "I think you'll find".
They are very specialised and as such have no place doing their primary role on any other fleet!
A wetty can use some of his skills (e.g. EO) on certain other fleets (manned and un-manned) whilst dry-guys can go to the E3 and use exactly the same piece of kit as they used just forward of the galley on the MR2. Dry-guys are also comms, Radar and DAS specialists - all skills that can be utilised on other fleets after a course on manipulating the particular kit on those other fleets.
MadMark!!!
Edited to add: Jayand, ITYF = "I think you'll find".
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Ok enough gesticulating, my point was in relation to the other crew members on the nimrod, ie pilots, navs and if you like AEO's.
We all know they have been well trained and can offer plenty on other fleets but still they are being placed on the scrap heap and to the back of the line, why? why are manning prioritising DE's over experience from the kipper fleet for any posn's on SH? IMHO it's because they want young, clean slate aircrew with no previous concepts about how things are.
Ones that have not or are not so specialist trained already.
It's only my opinion and this is after all a forum for expressing just such things.
We all know they have been well trained and can offer plenty on other fleets but still they are being placed on the scrap heap and to the back of the line, why? why are manning prioritising DE's over experience from the kipper fleet for any posn's on SH? IMHO it's because they want young, clean slate aircrew with no previous concepts about how things are.
Ones that have not or are not so specialist trained already.
It's only my opinion and this is after all a forum for expressing just such things.
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AEOps include people with degrees in technical and scientific subjects, so whilst the minimum qual was 3 O levels (English, Maths and Physics, basically) the vast majority were better qualified - some very much better qualified. Many had in fact gone for Pilot/Nav, which required 5 O levels, the three AEOps needed plus any other two.... so, RA, your jibe is a typical piece of rubbish - the educational requirements for the top job were little tougher than those for siggie, and I doubt anyone (Pilot/Navg or AEOp) stood that great a chanve of getting in on the bare minima.
The quals got you as far as OASC, where you'd then spend 5 days or so going through a battery of tests, leading to perhaps 1 in 10 succeeding in becoming aircrew. As you are obviously too unbalanced to have made it through OASC I wonder WTF you are doing on Pprune at all?
Some siggies doubtless wouldn't retrain too well, but the majority would, I suspect, have the intelligence and drive required to take on a new role. I imagine there's more of a feeling that by populating the RAF with DE's there'll be nobody around feeling grumpy about being shafted, the 'clean slate' allows you to get away with whatever you want as there's nobody around to point out that the terms of service have just nosedived again.
I spent 23 years in the RAF as aircrew, and I have never since (or before) met a group of people better at adapting, 'sucking it up' when needed, or more motivated to get a job done. To suggest these people are somehow not up to it is bollox - a few might not cut the mustard, but it's plain wrong to assume "nobody will hack it and we might as well start out afresh".
Siggie skills have been outlined above - part of the problem is that those spouting the rubbish have no bloody idea what they are talking about, I sincerely hope these numpties have no input into the future of the ex MPA crews.
Dave
The quals got you as far as OASC, where you'd then spend 5 days or so going through a battery of tests, leading to perhaps 1 in 10 succeeding in becoming aircrew. As you are obviously too unbalanced to have made it through OASC I wonder WTF you are doing on Pprune at all?
Some siggies doubtless wouldn't retrain too well, but the majority would, I suspect, have the intelligence and drive required to take on a new role. I imagine there's more of a feeling that by populating the RAF with DE's there'll be nobody around feeling grumpy about being shafted, the 'clean slate' allows you to get away with whatever you want as there's nobody around to point out that the terms of service have just nosedived again.
I spent 23 years in the RAF as aircrew, and I have never since (or before) met a group of people better at adapting, 'sucking it up' when needed, or more motivated to get a job done. To suggest these people are somehow not up to it is bollox - a few might not cut the mustard, but it's plain wrong to assume "nobody will hack it and we might as well start out afresh".
Siggie skills have been outlined above - part of the problem is that those spouting the rubbish have no bloody idea what they are talking about, I sincerely hope these numpties have no input into the future of the ex MPA crews.
Dave
AEOps include people with degrees in technical and scientific subjects
As you are obviously too unbalanced to have made it through OASC I wonder WTF you are doing on Pprune at all?
you'd then spend 5 days or so going through a battery of tests,
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There does seem to be a bit of protectionism here about peoples own trades, the AEOP's understandibly like to think that they are the bees knees however they are a little blinkered, especially considering that the vast majority of them have no experience of being another rank other than SNCO and no RAF experience outside of Cranwell and Kinloss.
20 plus years as a SNCO at one station does not make you an experienced airman, there is a great deal more to the RAF that you have not been exposed too.
I don't doubt the professionalism of many of them and the rigorous selection criteria no doubt weeds out the less desireable but don't kid yourselves that the same can't be said of any other trade within the Airforce.
20 plus years as a SNCO at one station does not make you an experienced airman, there is a great deal more to the RAF that you have not been exposed too.
I don't doubt the professionalism of many of them and the rigorous selection criteria no doubt weeds out the less desireable but don't kid yourselves that the same can't be said of any other trade within the Airforce.
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They are specialists but they at times like to tell you how so experienced they are after long careers, long careers at one station! it is a very narrow minded perspective.
Outside the maritime community nobody really gives a toss about the loss of capability, the only ones bleating are the ones that are being hit, it's hardly objective is it?
I wasn't the one claiming the Wsop's are more professional than any other trade or more academically qualified, examples of both qualities are found in every trade just as idiots are.
And yes your right I was never a good SNCO
Outside the maritime community nobody really gives a toss about the loss of capability, the only ones bleating are the ones that are being hit, it's hardly objective is it?
I wasn't the one claiming the Wsop's are more professional than any other trade or more academically qualified, examples of both qualities are found in every trade just as idiots are.
And yes your right I was never a good SNCO
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Thanks for all the concern and expert advice from an AEOp (WSOp Sensor in new money). Don't worry we will be fine 
Unfortunately 5000 blue suits will lose their jobs in the next few years, we will only be a small portion. We all have until at least Sep 2012 (unless you want to jump) to get ahead of the competition outside by gaining qualifications and new skills, whilst still getting paid! I doubt many civilians will get such an opportunity, don't forget SDSR 2015 will be much worse with 3 months wages, etc. Anyone who is still in a poor position to compete for a new job in Sep 2012 will probably only have themselves to blame.
QSP are being retained because it takes a while to train them and cost lots.
Navs (WSO) are being retained because, I'll let them try and justify keeping so many (yes that is a chip on my shoulder
as they are taking up roles I could do, so I admit I might be blinkered)
WSOp Sensor (Wet/Dry) are able to adapt to new platforms easily, those given the opportunity are doing so. They are doing the same job as WSO on some with no problem at all and cheaper
. There are not enough seats left and we know what has to happen 
Anyway what was this thread about again?
Oh yeah, I want a refund too
Edit: Looks like I have gone overboard on the use of smileys
Unfortunately 5000 blue suits will lose their jobs in the next few years, we will only be a small portion. We all have until at least Sep 2012 (unless you want to jump) to get ahead of the competition outside by gaining qualifications and new skills, whilst still getting paid! I doubt many civilians will get such an opportunity, don't forget SDSR 2015 will be much worse with 3 months wages, etc. Anyone who is still in a poor position to compete for a new job in Sep 2012 will probably only have themselves to blame.
QSP are being retained because it takes a while to train them and cost lots.
Navs (WSO) are being retained because, I'll let them try and justify keeping so many (yes that is a chip on my shoulder
as they are taking up roles I could do, so I admit I might be blinkered) WSOp Sensor (Wet/Dry) are able to adapt to new platforms easily, those given the opportunity are doing so. They are doing the same job as WSO on some with no problem at all and cheaper
. There are not enough seats left and we know what has to happen Anyway what was this thread about again?
Oh yeah, I want a refund too
Edit: Looks like I have gone overboard on the use of smileys
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Outside the maritime community nobody really gives a toss about the loss of capability, the only ones bleating are the ones that are being hit, it's hardly objective is it?
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I told you a couple of years ago, you wouldn t get any carriers or any F-35 !
You should buy the Rafale and do a deal with the French Gvt, to build 2 aircraft carriers, one for the RN and one for la Royale.
It s your unique chance to save your Navy !
You should buy the Rafale and do a deal with the French Gvt, to build 2 aircraft carriers, one for the RN and one for la Royale.
It s your unique chance to save your Navy !
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AEOps include people with degrees in technical and scientific subjects
Yes MGD - I was responding to the dig at WSOps only needing 3 O levels, suggesting that their academic quals weren't that impressive (a post I cannot now see...hmmm...)
In my day (swings lamp) OASC did last something like 5 days - you turned up Saturday, spent all day on IQ tests, next day was medicals and interviews, then a day or two running around a gym playing with oil drums and budgie bars, and a final morning spent woeking on an individual planning task that was designed to have very few (if any) correct answers. Excuse me if my timing is a little off, but that's how I remember it going in July 1977!
Jayand -
Is this in reply to my post? If so I was referring to Really Annoyed, not you.
As for AEOps (WSOps) not being exposed to the greater RAF, that's true for many, however quite a number of siggies did ground tours that took them all over the place, including on exchange with the RN, so it's not a universal truth. I would query whether ANY significant proportion of servicemen gain any great degree of knowledge of areas and roles outside their area of expertise.
I wouldn't argue for siggies to take slots from those trained in a particular role, but I would argue against making people redundant who are capable of being re-roled whilst at he same time recruiting D.E.s ....the same goes for any trade currently looking at cuts, out here in civvy street any employer who bins existing staff to take on new staff at lower rates of pay tends to find themselves in hot water.
Dave
That covers most rearcrew these days, regardless of specialisation
In my day (swings lamp) OASC did last something like 5 days - you turned up Saturday, spent all day on IQ tests, next day was medicals and interviews, then a day or two running around a gym playing with oil drums and budgie bars, and a final morning spent woeking on an individual planning task that was designed to have very few (if any) correct answers. Excuse me if my timing is a little off, but that's how I remember it going in July 1977!
Jayand -
And yes your right I was never a good SNCO
As for AEOps (WSOps) not being exposed to the greater RAF, that's true for many, however quite a number of siggies did ground tours that took them all over the place, including on exchange with the RN, so it's not a universal truth. I would query whether ANY significant proportion of servicemen gain any great degree of knowledge of areas and roles outside their area of expertise.
I wouldn't argue for siggies to take slots from those trained in a particular role, but I would argue against making people redundant who are capable of being re-roled whilst at he same time recruiting D.E.s ....the same goes for any trade currently looking at cuts, out here in civvy street any employer who bins existing staff to take on new staff at lower rates of pay tends to find themselves in hot water.
Dave
I wouldn't argue for siggies to take slots from those trained in a particular role, but I would argue against making people redundant who are capable of being re-roled whilst at he same time recruiting D.E.s ....the same goes for any trade currently looking at cuts, out here in civvy street any employer who bins existing staff to take on new staff at lower rates of pay tends to find themselves in hot water.
Unfortunately, identifying those unsuitable often takes time and uses up valuable training time and slots on courses that we just don't have. If anything, the problem for AEOp's is the modern selection and training system which is actually very good. With a DE, 99% of the time we get a uniform product capable of the task. The same cannot be said of retreads from other fleets.
As I have said before, I would be a crap wet/dry man so dont take this personally.
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I don't take it personally as I'm not interested in going SH, but you better tell 22Gp to stop the WSOp Sensor guys (AEOps) it has sent to SH from Cranwell recently. Could it be that you are judging re-treads more critically than DEs on your fleet or is one bad egg giving everyone a bad name?
On the Kipper fleet we were always receptive to guys joining from other fleets, there weren't many but those that came over always had useful knowlwdge and a fresh perspective coming from another type.
Edit: PM from MGD answered question so removed it and accept his point
On the Kipper fleet we were always receptive to guys joining from other fleets, there weren't many but those that came over always had useful knowlwdge and a fresh perspective coming from another type.
Edit: PM from MGD answered question so removed it and accept his point
Last edited by Ivan Rogov; 20th Feb 2011 at 16:49.
OFO - the loss of MRA4 has deprived the RN of a valuable asset in the ASW and ASuW arena. Having visited the squadrons immediately after SDSR was announced, I have extended my frustration to them, and am disappointed I won't be able to work with them.
Roll on the MRA8....
Roll on the MRA8....