We want our Nimrod investment back

[Mad_Mark]

And if people want to go round and round in circles then just let them and don't read the posts - no one forces anyone to read the Nimrod threads

MadMark!!!

[manccowboy]

pitotheat

Strewth guys and gals
How many threads do we have to have knocking about the pros and cons of the Mighty Hunter's demise? It has gone, ceased to be and never to be seen again. It may or may not be replaced by a new platform when the country can afford to support this role again but for now stop your bleating and move on.

Why don't you move on, you obviously have no interest in this thread so STFU and use your browser's back button.

[pitotheat]

My point is there have been many threads started about MRA4s cancellation all of which descend quickly into a blame game between BAe, MOD and RAF. I spent 15 years at Kinloss and St Mawgan flying the Nimrod and was sad to see the end of all of the skills built up over many years. I left the RAF over 10 years ago and kept an eye and an ear on what was happening, it came as no surprise to hear the program was cancelled. However, there have been many other programs and roles across all 3 services cancelled yet you do not see on PPRuNe the pointless whinging seen from those involved. Why do those involved with the Nimrod think they have been so hard done by in comparison? What do you think you sound like to those from the RAF and other services who have suffered similar cuts and after venting their disappointments and frustrations start looking ahead? As I have said before get over it, stop your bleating and start planning a future not on an MPA.

[Scuttled]

Kind of hear your point pitothead, but there is a difference between choosing one 'fighter' over another, or a type of training aircraft over another, and destroying an entire capability honed over decades (to the envy of most nations) which cannot replaced for many years.

In the former you retrain onto a new platform and crack on. Lovely. Latter, nope. Nothing doing. Especially the case for non pilots.

Most Nimrod mates won't get the retraining option because the excellence they have spent their whole intellect and adult professional life chasing is now worth nothing.

Their RAF future has disappeared along with a hugely under valued capability.

If you don't think they're entitled to a bit of a 'chat' about that, well okay.

Don't read, don't comment, I refer you to Mad_Mark.

[The Old Fat One]

PH

You start off by making a good point - although it has already been made several times.

But then, like a lot of others (including I would suggest those responsible for the security of the UK) you kinda miss the point.

Long Range Maritime Patrol has been the responsibility of the RAF since the the 1930s and the Battle of the Atlantic. In many other nations (such as the USA) the responsibility has resided with their Navy. That capability has been removed...forever. Amongst developed Island nations across the planet, we alone are going in this direction.

That probably merits a discussion, as does the massive waste of taxpayers money (for the second time on this airframe). On a human note, many of those whose dreams have been trashed probably deserve to be cut a little slack as well.

However, you are correct to point out that there are way too many threads on the same subject and great deal of pointless piffle in amongst some of the more informed views.

[cazatou]

TOFO

"Long Range Maritime Patrol has been the responsibility of the RAF since the 1930's and the Battle of the Atlantic".

In 1939/40 the Avro Anson equipped the following Squadrons of Coastal Command.

48,206,217,220,221,224,233,269,275,276,278,279,280,281,282,3 20,321,,500,
502,608 and 612. That aircraft had a maximum range of 790 miles.

The Short Sunderland equipped only 5 Sqns.

[WillDAQ]

Kind of hear your point pitothead, but there is a difference between choosing one 'fighter' over another, or a type of training aircraft over another, and destroying an entire capability honed over decades (to the envy of most nations) which cannot replaced for many years.

That's the point. A stand alone capability costs far more in terms of support infrastructure per unit than a particular aircraft type.

We're loosing 9 aircraft and saving a huge pile of cash which you wouldn't be able to save by loosing 9 fighters.

We'll pick the capability up again at some point (no doubt after some unfortunate event) but for now it's all about cash in the bank.

[GrahamO]

Kind of hear your point pitothead, but there is a difference between choosing one 'fighter' over another, or a type of training aircraft over another, and destroying an entire capability honed over decades (to the envy of most nations) which cannot replaced for many years.

Indeed, but no doubt the same argument has been used when anything is taken out of service, but the difference this time is that there is a finite pot of money and the open ended bucket of public money no longer exists.

If MRA4 were allowed to continue, and lets be generous and say its only £500M to finish it (a flying pig just went past the office window) , and say 'only' £200M per annum to run them, what will the RAF give up in short term of savings of £500M and ongoing savings of operational costs of £200M per annum?

And more importantly, would that choice result in no bleating about the loss of whatever is chosen to be lost to keep MRA4 flying.

Its all about the money ......... and its finite.

[getsometimein]

Nimrod was never a stand-alone capability... The number of roles fulfilled by it was massive and it is now taking at least a half dozen (and more) assets to cover what a single Nimrod stood on standby for 24/7/365/~40 years...

[pitotheat]

We seem to be going around in circles again. I take the point that for the AEOps there will be limited options for them to remain flying. For the good ones who have worked hard there will be opportunities elsewhere in the service in other trades. For those who sat back and drifted along well this is where reality will hit. There is no money left to operate a fleet of 9 ac that is 10 years late and countless millions over budget and there is no money to keep SNCO aircrew in jobs other trades can do far cheaper. As an ex service man that is a very harsh thing to write but as a tax payer and someone who has been wearing a suit for the last 10+ years that is the reality. So for the good eggs life will probably have to change for the rest it definitely will change.

[The Old Fat One]

For those who sat back and drifted along well this is where reality will hit

I was an AE Ldr on a Maritime Sqn for three years and this description would fit precisely one AEOp under my command. Halfway through his tour I put a rocket so far up his jacksey he did not sit down again for 18 months.

I leave you with a quote from the Armed Forces Pay Banding Team 2001; the year the AEOp cadre was upbanded in all ranks, against the predictions of just about the entire RAF.

The AEOp cadre is amongst the most professional and dedicated trades and aircrew branches anywhere in the military forces of the UK.

And yes you did yank my chain and yes I am, and always will, proud to be a "plastic".

[Jayand]

The AEOp cadre is amongst the most professional and dedicated trades and aircrew branches anywhere in the military forces of the UK.

That may well be true, but unfortunately they are so specialised that they are of little use to anyone else on any other platforms, Pilots retrain, navs retrain Wsops?

[Jayand]

Don't even ask about AEO'S

[Jayand]

Kreuger flap do tell the audience how many of the current Wsops are going to get cross trained onto the other fleets with all their spaces?

[Kreuger flap]

That is a totally different issue due to numbers of slots available and not what you said.

[davejb]

We'll pick the capability up again at some point (no doubt after some unfortunate event) but for now it's all about cash in the bank.

...and that is THE point that a great many critics are missing - NO YOU BLOODY WELL WON'T! By the time the RAF gets back into the game (if they ever do), as everyone will have left who knew how to do it, then they'll have to start from scratch again.

Once the capability has been killed off, it will take a decade before the sensor operators will begin to approach the level of the average maritime crew (in a number of fields, not just ASW)....that's a decade after they've exited the OCUs, where they'll spend 6 months on a course best described as 'the blind leading the partially sighted'.

Personally I think this is a mistake, but accept that I might be wrong - but please stop basing 'logical' arguments on the complete fallacy that all you need to regain a capability is the intent to do so.

As for whether we need all thes Nimrod threads - good lord no! By this stage, let's face it, the Nimrod is dead - you couldn't field a squadron now if you wanted to - so the only argument is whether you try to sustain some 'seedcorn' of "corporate knowledge" or not, and if so how many/what type? I suspect the 'seedcorn' idea will not take into account the degradation of skills over time that has already set in, and will focus on too few individuals... a bit like just saving the GSU, and I can't be the only person who remembers the day they taxied past and had to shut down as they'd left the APU running....

Caz - 5 squadrons, (adopts Monty Python* 'Yorkshiremen sketch' voice...."Luxury!")

Dave

(*It was actually on "(at last it's) The 1948 Light Show" originally - shock horror, Monty P nicked one of their most famous sketches! Admittedly most of the 1948 lot went on to form Python...)

[QTRZulu]

they are so specialised that they are of little use to anyone else

As ever inspired (or should that be insipid) insight

If these guys are so specialised why are there several who have gone to other fleets and pretty much reached the top on those fleets as well!

If you don't believe me for an example look at Odiham where I know for a fact that an ex Kipper fleet WSOp is now a crewman leader on one of the Chinny Sqns.

Unbelievably, the one fact you do have correct is that there are going to be few if any cross over slots, but this has nothing to do with the individuals, its a Group decision: a terrible one at that that will drive out more good guys than the system can recruit in the next 10 years

[Jayand]

They are very specialised and as such have no place doing their primary role on any other fleet! yes they can be retrained to do a crewman job on helos or LM on AT and do very well at it too, however when a pilot changes fleets he is still flying a plane, when a Nav moves fleets he is still navigating, a wetman does not hunt many subs in a bloomin chinook!
People are upset that they are not getting to cross over to SH when they have spent 15 years on the kipper fleet, manning has decided that they want fresh blood primarily for their intake on courses for next few years it is tough but you can see why.

[minigundiplomat]

Some of the AEOps that have crossed over in the past have been very good - the example QTR quoted being prime. But he is the exception to the rule.

Equally, some have been the worst helicopter operators I have ever come across. It's not their fault per se, they just do not have the required aptitude. It isnt all firing miniguns and sitting on the ramp.

This is not an anti-AEOp dig, I'd be pretty crap at finding submarines, but being NCA does not make you great at everything.

Horses for causes.

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

Jayand,

Notwithstanding the Chinook v submarine thing - which I agree with you about; although I would not be surprised to read it in some MOD mitigation! - you obviously have little idea what WSOps on Nimrods were trained to do. Wetmen did more than monitor sonobuoys.

Duncs