We want our Nimrod investment back
if the company had come close to delivering on time and to budget, then it would have been a very different story.
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"But we have the money to give away in foreign aid (4.5billion) to the likes of India who clearly with a space and defence budget of 50 billion doesn't need our cash but we still insist on giving it to them"
You can argue the rights and wrongs of this one another time but do you honestly believe that if we didn't sent that money we would somehow use it on MPA instead? joe public cares not a jot about some pesky submarines, he wants good education for his kids, good health care and low taxes.
You can argue the rights and wrongs of this one another time but do you honestly believe that if we didn't sent that money we would somehow use it on MPA instead? joe public cares not a jot about some pesky submarines, he wants good education for his kids, good health care and low taxes.
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TOTD wrote:
Indeed, I don't disagree; it will be expensive to reopen Coastal with P-8s in 2020, and an entire generation will be lost, needlessly. My point is merely to Manccowboy that he - if I understand him correctly - is a BAES apologist insisting on blaming the government. The contractor screwed up mightily and was never seriously held to account - the £300m writedown SFO mentioned earlier should have been 8-10 times that amount.
S41
Very true. But, despite the delays and budget increases, the company did come close to delivering these aircraft. This, to me, is why seeing them destroyed and the capability lost is such a big blow - far more so than, say, cancelling our part in some future pie-in-the-sky programme like JSF/JCA which is still years from service and is essentially an abstract concept.
S41
Sunk cost.... get over it. The costs are written off and there is no way of getting them back. HMG has made the decision and has no doubt 'saved' another £6Bn in thru life and project completion costs. Sad, but an accounting fact now; it ain't coming back!
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Originally Posted by manccowboy
most of the local people who I have spoke to who live around Woodford are also very angry at the waste.
A badly briefed, hard of understanding Government has taken a through life operating saving and opened up the option for a bonus Station closure.
You are also up against;
You can all have my share of the Comet! 
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Did the heads of BAE sell the cancellation to the Government in order to save something else. BAE knew there was not much money in supporting MRA4 and offered it up to save possible JSF/Carrier order perhaps. The Carrier pre SDSR was favourite to get the cancellation, The MRA4 nobody really expected it not even anyone in the MOD.
Cynical , perhaps!! Whatever, its happened now but one day it will come out through Wiki and we will all know .
Cynical , perhaps!! Whatever, its happened now but one day it will come out through Wiki and we will all know .
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Why not drag BAE Systems in front of a Parliamentary committee, set up an inquiry to get to the bottom of these inadequacies (including airworthiness) and pass specific legislation to levy a hefty fine?
Ahh, the land of dreams....where bankers pay their share as well.....and taxpayers get a fair deal!
Ahh, the land of dreams....where bankers pay their share as well.....and taxpayers get a fair deal!
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It doesn't really matter - in a strange way,
because nobody can, or will ever, point a finger at one person/organisation and clearly state 'this is the git who caused it to happen'. Without a culprit you can't, really, do anything about fixing it.
BWoS, arguably, were in the wrong because of delays, snags still not sorted, reducing number of airframes for increased cost, ancient working practises (I expect, one day, to find the control wheel was hand carved from Tibetan Mahogany with deep sea free range pearl inlay), and so on.
The RAF, on the other hand, had a meeting every second Tuesday, at which the committee members (all 2* and up) read well preserved copies of 'The Eagle' from the 1950's-60's, paying extra attention to the cutaway drawings and the future predictions, before redrafting the air staff target for the Nim MRA4.
The MAA regularly reviewed the MRA 4 safety case, and found themselves compelled to reject it as 'potentially not safe', becuase it included the word 'Nimrod', in fact the latest such rejection counted up to 378 such occurrences and accused the IPT/BWoS of 'reckless Nimrodism of the worst kind'.
The CS overseers were appalled (a quotation directly attributed to a specific episode of Yes Minister), as there was a brief 'window of inopportunity' during which it was conceivable that the senior staff would have to buy their own lunch.
The PM and his 'homies' simply saw the cost and blanched... unfortunately when you don't apply the screening process (IQ etc) to politicians that the RAF applies to picking its aircrew, tradesmen, and - let's try not to say this offensively - dog handlers, then what do you expect by way of government other than weasely opportunists?
There were sundry objections from gun runners, drug cartels, and the current head of what was once called Northfleet who strenuously objected to unwarranted oversight of perfectly legitimate submarine evolutions west of Faslane, and Tommy Sheridan - whose peace campaign struck a particular note with a group calling themselves 'the old lags of D wing'.
To make up for what has been seen as "a bit of a downer", according to a Downing St analyst, it is strongly rumoured that Mr Cameron is going to announce the opening of a new Spitfire OCU in the summer, as everyone really wants to fly one of them anyway.
Dave
Apologies to dog handlers, but Jack was a good laugh and I meant it with my tongue firmly in my cheek.
because nobody can, or will ever, point a finger at one person/organisation and clearly state 'this is the git who caused it to happen'. Without a culprit you can't, really, do anything about fixing it.
BWoS, arguably, were in the wrong because of delays, snags still not sorted, reducing number of airframes for increased cost, ancient working practises (I expect, one day, to find the control wheel was hand carved from Tibetan Mahogany with deep sea free range pearl inlay), and so on.
The RAF, on the other hand, had a meeting every second Tuesday, at which the committee members (all 2* and up) read well preserved copies of 'The Eagle' from the 1950's-60's, paying extra attention to the cutaway drawings and the future predictions, before redrafting the air staff target for the Nim MRA4.
The MAA regularly reviewed the MRA 4 safety case, and found themselves compelled to reject it as 'potentially not safe', becuase it included the word 'Nimrod', in fact the latest such rejection counted up to 378 such occurrences and accused the IPT/BWoS of 'reckless Nimrodism of the worst kind'.
The CS overseers were appalled (a quotation directly attributed to a specific episode of Yes Minister), as there was a brief 'window of inopportunity' during which it was conceivable that the senior staff would have to buy their own lunch.
The PM and his 'homies' simply saw the cost and blanched... unfortunately when you don't apply the screening process (IQ etc) to politicians that the RAF applies to picking its aircrew, tradesmen, and - let's try not to say this offensively - dog handlers, then what do you expect by way of government other than weasely opportunists?
There were sundry objections from gun runners, drug cartels, and the current head of what was once called Northfleet who strenuously objected to unwarranted oversight of perfectly legitimate submarine evolutions west of Faslane, and Tommy Sheridan - whose peace campaign struck a particular note with a group calling themselves 'the old lags of D wing'.
To make up for what has been seen as "a bit of a downer", according to a Downing St analyst, it is strongly rumoured that Mr Cameron is going to announce the opening of a new Spitfire OCU in the summer, as everyone really wants to fly one of them anyway.
Dave
Apologies to dog handlers, but Jack was a good laugh and I meant it with my tongue firmly in my cheek.
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It should have been renamed. We joked, and actually speculated on good names for a replacement OVER A YEAR AGO (sorry for shouting but its true.) However, it was all laughed off as morale and high-jinks! Would it have mattered? Who cares now! But what if?
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A member of this forum - not me, I hasten to add - informed CAS, when he was discussing a proposal to call the MRA4 'Helios', that 'if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck; it's probably a duck.' CAS was speechless!
Duncs
Duncs
nobody can, or will ever, point a finger at one person/organisation and clearly state 'this is the git who caused it to happen'.
One must always take a wider view with MoD as they always try to compartmentalise problems.
In this instance, try reading the PAC report into Chinook Mk3. It concludes that no individual or group can be blamed, but does say the main blame lies with "lack of management oversight".
List that "management".
Then do the same for Nimrod.
Compare.
Two names stand out in both. One (to my personal knowledge) was told in infinite detail what would happen on both programmes. Also, both were told of serious airworthiness shortcomings; both ruling in writing that aircraft need not be functionally safe when delivered to the Service. In February 1998.
May I suggest they should be first on any witness list at an inquiry.
@davejb - would you accept that the excellent crew selection criteria to which you referred earlier, may produce superb pilots, of high moral integrity and skill but fails to select the gene which encourages the ability to stick to time and budget?
I have the highest regard for every member of the Armed Forces I have ever met, but sadly I do not recognise their skills in sticking to a budget and leaving the goalposts where they stand.
And that is the root cause of the whole sorry mess - in many ways there are some sad parallels with the BA cabin crew thread whose volume and hostility speaks volumes.
In that circumstance, poor BA management have allowed the cabin crew to achieve the belief that they run the airline and determine priorities, budgets and paying customers are there to protect their employment terms even as the whole world changes around them, and the airline becomes hugely inefficient and full of obsolete working practices. After a decade of living in an unreal world, a new CEO in Willy Walsh arrives, plays hardball and a decade of necessary change introduced in a very short period of time. The paying public greet this largely with a cheer, and a "about time too" attitude. The union loses all support from the public.
In this circumstance, poor MOD management have allowed the armed forces to achieve the belief that their needs determine government priorities, budgets and the exchequer are there to protect the size and scope of the armed forces even as the whole world changes around them, and the central MOD function becomes hugely inefficient and full of obsolete working practices. After a decade of living in an unreal world, a new Prime Minister in David Cameron arrives, plays hardball and a decade of necessary fiscal proberty is introduced in a very short period of time. The paying public greet this largely with a "shock and awe at the waste", and a "about time too" attitude.
I do not think for one minute that the public will lose faith in the armed forces, but let's not push it shall we ?
I have the highest regard for every member of the Armed Forces I have ever met, but sadly I do not recognise their skills in sticking to a budget and leaving the goalposts where they stand.
And that is the root cause of the whole sorry mess - in many ways there are some sad parallels with the BA cabin crew thread whose volume and hostility speaks volumes.
In that circumstance, poor BA management have allowed the cabin crew to achieve the belief that they run the airline and determine priorities, budgets and paying customers are there to protect their employment terms even as the whole world changes around them, and the airline becomes hugely inefficient and full of obsolete working practices. After a decade of living in an unreal world, a new CEO in Willy Walsh arrives, plays hardball and a decade of necessary change introduced in a very short period of time. The paying public greet this largely with a cheer, and a "about time too" attitude. The union loses all support from the public.
In this circumstance, poor MOD management have allowed the armed forces to achieve the belief that their needs determine government priorities, budgets and the exchequer are there to protect the size and scope of the armed forces even as the whole world changes around them, and the central MOD function becomes hugely inefficient and full of obsolete working practices. After a decade of living in an unreal world, a new Prime Minister in David Cameron arrives, plays hardball and a decade of necessary fiscal proberty is introduced in a very short period of time. The paying public greet this largely with a "shock and awe at the waste", and a "about time too" attitude.
I do not think for one minute that the public will lose faith in the armed forces, but let's not push it shall we ?
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Strewth guys and gals
How many threads do we have to have knocking about the pros and cons of the Mighty Hunter's demise? It has gone, ceased to be and never to be seen again. It may or may not be replaced by a new platform when the country can afford to support this role again but for now stop your bleating and move on.
How many threads do we have to have knocking about the pros and cons of the Mighty Hunter's demise? It has gone, ceased to be and never to be seen again. It may or may not be replaced by a new platform when the country can afford to support this role again but for now stop your bleating and move on.
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Actually Graham,
my post was intended to suggest that the problem originates in a number of factors, and probably cannot be laid at a single door, not that I imagine the powers that be would welcome having the guilty parties identified.
However,
is one bit I'd have to disagree with being laid at the door of the uniformed contingent, I'd say sticking to time and budget was an issue that BWoS and MoD should be more accountable for.
I'd also tend to suggest that a major factor in MoD going over budget has probably been the way our forces have been committed repeatedly to act in overseas theatres - Gulf 1 and 2, Bosnia, Afghanistan being the headliners but not the only expensive events since 1990. We've been trying to run the forces on peacetime budgets while our political masters have been most reluctant to ensure they have peacetime roles to fulfill.
Having said that about MoD, I have to admit that the cynic in me believes the budget would have been exceeded year in year out had the forces done nothing more strenuous than attend the annual Scout Jamboree during that same period of time....
Dave
my post was intended to suggest that the problem originates in a number of factors, and probably cannot be laid at a single door, not that I imagine the powers that be would welcome having the guilty parties identified.
However,
which encourages the ability to stick to time and budget?
I'd also tend to suggest that a major factor in MoD going over budget has probably been the way our forces have been committed repeatedly to act in overseas theatres - Gulf 1 and 2, Bosnia, Afghanistan being the headliners but not the only expensive events since 1990. We've been trying to run the forces on peacetime budgets while our political masters have been most reluctant to ensure they have peacetime roles to fulfill.
Having said that about MoD, I have to admit that the cynic in me believes the budget would have been exceeded year in year out had the forces done nothing more strenuous than attend the annual Scout Jamboree during that same period of time....
Dave
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Strewth guys and gals
How many threads do we have to have knocking about the pros and cons of the Mighty Hunter's demise? It has gone, ceased to be and never to be seen again. It may or may not be replaced by a new platform when the country can afford to support this role again but for now stop your bleating and move on.
How many threads do we have to have knocking about the pros and cons of the Mighty Hunter's demise? It has gone, ceased to be and never to be seen again. It may or may not be replaced by a new platform when the country can afford to support this role again but for now stop your bleating and move on.
If these threads are bothering you then don't f**king read them