Your just "Public Sector Workers"
Not even sure that I'd say that the CS in DIS have an operational decision making role - they merely provide advice based on evidence, and there are plenty of Mil there too. From my own experience, whatever was staffed at junior levels, the real decisions were taken by the Mil staff and seniors.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Jimlad, that was the point.
Mrs Margaret Aldred, late deputy head of the cabinet foreign and defence secretariat, contradicted a defence select committee report on the need for more helicopters.
Dannatt said we needed more boots on the ground. She told US diplomats that more troops and helicopters would make little difference.
She said that the brune one decided how many British troops would deploy only after close consultation with the MOD. She didn't say if he had accepted the MOD position or merely consulted and then done his own thing.
~~~
A military officer expressed surprise and said they were strange opinions for an official and events show that she was quite wrong.
"Frankly, a [mere] civil servant whose life has been in Westminster is not well positioned to make those judgements."
Pretty damming stuff and adequate evidence that mere civil servants acted above the military high command to thwart their best advice. Had Dannatt known, resignation would have been the only option.
Torygraph, 11 Feb, page 10
Mrs Margaret Aldred, late deputy head of the cabinet foreign and defence secretariat, contradicted a defence select committee report on the need for more helicopters.
Dannatt said we needed more boots on the ground. She told US diplomats that more troops and helicopters would make little difference.
She said that the brune one decided how many British troops would deploy only after close consultation with the MOD. She didn't say if he had accepted the MOD position or merely consulted and then done his own thing.
~~~
A military officer expressed surprise and said they were strange opinions for an official and events show that she was quite wrong.
"Frankly, a [mere] civil servant whose life has been in Westminster is not well positioned to make those judgements."
Pretty damming stuff and adequate evidence that mere civil servants acted above the military high command to thwart their best advice. Had Dannatt known, resignation would have been the only option.
Torygraph, 11 Feb, page 10
I can see that serving and ex-serving people might get irate,
BUT
the Met Office [for example] has a goodly number of forecasters and observers who combine two roles: as RAFVR officers in uniform at various sharp ends, and then as normal Met folk "at home".
So what do we call them in these public services debate, pray?
BUT
the Met Office [for example] has a goodly number of forecasters and observers who combine two roles: as RAFVR officers in uniform at various sharp ends, and then as normal Met folk "at home".
So what do we call them in these public services debate, pray?
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RA, I think that was Cazatou's point. If the military are "just Public Sector workers" and therefore to be treated the same as everybody else in the Public Sector, surely that must then apply to working conditions as well.
I look forward to the day when I can:
a. form a Union without being accused of Mutiny,
b. refuse to do anything that risks my health/life, or is not in my terms of reference,
c. receive overtime pay for working longer than 37.5 hours per week,
d. go on strike if I don't like the way my working conditions/pay/ are being altered by my employers.
What do you think would happen if the Fire Brigade had had their allowances reduced to the extent ours were 2 weeks ago? "Everybody out guys, let the military put out the fires!"
Or the tube drivers? Or the airport workers?
The Armed Forces have no comeback to any of this, other than leaving, and that takes a year. That is why they need to be treated differently and be given a little protection, since they fight for the country, but are not permitted to fight for themselves.
I look forward to the day when I can:
a. form a Union without being accused of Mutiny,
b. refuse to do anything that risks my health/life, or is not in my terms of reference,
c. receive overtime pay for working longer than 37.5 hours per week,
d. go on strike if I don't like the way my working conditions/pay/ are being altered by my employers.
What do you think would happen if the Fire Brigade had had their allowances reduced to the extent ours were 2 weeks ago? "Everybody out guys, let the military put out the fires!"
Or the tube drivers? Or the airport workers?
The Armed Forces have no comeback to any of this, other than leaving, and that takes a year. That is why they need to be treated differently and be given a little protection, since they fight for the country, but are not permitted to fight for themselves.
1. We remain under civilian control, they make the decisions at the end of the day. If they want to ignore our advice, that's the way it goes. Don't like it, go find a tinpot country to take over in a military coup.
2. The wider point about the MoD is that it is the only Gov't department that has a mixture of long term strategic thinking and a day to day operational headquarters in the same place. We wouldn't allow the Dept of Health to run a Hospital out of it's headquarters, why does it make sense for the MoD to do so?
Hell, it might even satisfy the bloodlust for removing Admirals, Generals and Air Chief Marshals.....
2. The wider point about the MoD is that it is the only Gov't department that has a mixture of long term strategic thinking and a day to day operational headquarters in the same place. We wouldn't allow the Dept of Health to run a Hospital out of it's headquarters, why does it make sense for the MoD to do so?
Hell, it might even satisfy the bloodlust for removing Admirals, Generals and Air Chief Marshals.....
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It's not a question of "drying one's eyes", as you so eloquently put it. Or running away to the private sector.
However, unless someone in MOD stands up for the Armed Forces, the little things that make up for the lack of the above rights (and the list was supposed to be a little facietious!) enjoyed by all other workers will continue to be eroded to the point that people really will leave, and those that remain (mortgage trap, pension trap, etc), will have no loyalty to the Services beyond the pay statement at the end of the month.
Oh, and by the way, although we may not pay directly for our pensions, our salaries are reduced accordingly to fund them.
However, unless someone in MOD stands up for the Armed Forces, the little things that make up for the lack of the above rights (and the list was supposed to be a little facietious!) enjoyed by all other workers will continue to be eroded to the point that people really will leave, and those that remain (mortgage trap, pension trap, etc), will have no loyalty to the Services beyond the pay statement at the end of the month.
Oh, and by the way, although we may not pay directly for our pensions, our salaries are reduced accordingly to fund them.
I can't remember the last time I was at a unit where we had the capacity to do sport, AT or I had the time to do evening classes.
Ref earlier question, PUS definately does not conjure up images of Miss Galore
Ref earlier question, PUS definately does not conjure up images of Miss Galore
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Radar Command
We do NOT have to guess what the Fire Brigade would do in such circumstances - I lost count of the number of times that the Armed Forces had to "stand in" for Civilian Firefighters during my 30+ years of Service. I even remember an occasion when a RAF Fire Crew was returning from an incident when they were ambushed by striking Civilian Firefighters. When the casualties arrived at the local hospital the RAF crew were treated first because "they had to go back on duty".
We do NOT have to guess what the Fire Brigade would do in such circumstances - I lost count of the number of times that the Armed Forces had to "stand in" for Civilian Firefighters during my 30+ years of Service. I even remember an occasion when a RAF Fire Crew was returning from an incident when they were ambushed by striking Civilian Firefighters. When the casualties arrived at the local hospital the RAF crew were treated first because "they had to go back on duty".
Last edited by cazatou; 12th Feb 2011 at 09:58.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
The short answer is No. Montgomery was put under immense pressure to launch an attack before he was ready; he refused and only attacked when ready. Under Montgomery people had no option but to obey but not at the higher command level. The choice was either heed him or sack him.
The point about a civil servant in the Cabinet Office is that she was not Government. Was it her job to brief the US Embassy on British Military policy which appeared to be the reverse of what CGS was saying in public?
Interesting - the services think the CS rules, while according to the question below from that interview, the CS think the Mil rule -
"Some senior MoD officials have voiced concern in private that the Ministry – and the defence decision-making process – is becoming dominated the Service Chiefs and the military, while the MoD’s civilian staff are being marginalised."
Means the system must be working as intended if both sides think the other has it better than them
"Some senior MoD officials have voiced concern in private that the Ministry – and the defence decision-making process – is becoming dominated the Service Chiefs and the military, while the MoD’s civilian staff are being marginalised."
Means the system must be working as intended if both sides think the other has it better than them
PN - either she was instructed to write that on behalf of her PS, her Minister or she had delegated authority. Any which way you skin that cat, the Cabinet Office has at least as much say in military affairs (as they pertain to wider foreign affairs) as the MoD, especially when it comes to policy questions like troop numbers.
I would suggest I, or any other serving Officer, would be on the thinnest of planks if we refused to carry out a direct order from a properly appointed, and authorised, member of HM Govt. If we got it exactly right, we might get away with it, but it'd be Court Martial time if we got it even a little bit wrong....
I would suggest I, or any other serving Officer, would be on the thinnest of planks if we refused to carry out a direct order from a properly appointed, and authorised, member of HM Govt. If we got it exactly right, we might get away with it, but it'd be Court Martial time if we got it even a little bit wrong....
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"Ursula Brennan, the ministry’s permanent under-secretary, was reprimanded hours after military charities warned the Government it was in danger of breaching the Military Covenant that it had promised to restore.
Mrs Brennan was reprimanded by Mr Arbuthnot for describing troops as public sector workers. “I’m not sure that someone who is fighting in a forward operating base in Afghanistan will see themselves necessarily working in the public sector,” he told her."
As an ex-military who is now a civil servant I suppose I should tread carefully so as to upset no-one (that'll be a first!) but I understand that the current PUS was not "top of the preferred list" so to speak but that the job was always going to be such a goat that very few CS of the calibre required wanted it (they never asked me and the answer's no!). There is also, so I'm told, a certain reticence by this PUS to sign off the order for the new chinooks but I believe that's already covered in another thread. All this is pure rumour of course.
Mrs Brennan was reprimanded by Mr Arbuthnot for describing troops as public sector workers. “I’m not sure that someone who is fighting in a forward operating base in Afghanistan will see themselves necessarily working in the public sector,” he told her."
As an ex-military who is now a civil servant I suppose I should tread carefully so as to upset no-one (that'll be a first!) but I understand that the current PUS was not "top of the preferred list" so to speak but that the job was always going to be such a goat that very few CS of the calibre required wanted it (they never asked me and the answer's no!). There is also, so I'm told, a certain reticence by this PUS to sign off the order for the new chinooks but I believe that's already covered in another thread. All this is pure rumour of course.
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Bull*hit Bingo, anyone?
Spurlash - You hit the nail on the head; does that sound like anyone who is on the same planet as most of the service personnel and civil servants who are doing the day to day jobs which get things done.
At PUS level things are just numbers,statistics and production units; real people don't count; hence the buggering about in reorganisations such as the DES move to sunny Abbeywood from all over or moving the Met office to Exeter.
I bet it would be interesting to find out if she ever stayed in one place long enough to be accountable for the actual outcomes of any grand schemes she dreamed up.
It is interesting that she came from what is now the Dept for Work and Pensions; I used to work there and they have the worst terms and conditions in the civil service- guess where the MOD's are headed for both Service personnel and CS?
The article hints that other people avoided the job so it doesn't seem like she was first choice.
Spurlash - You hit the nail on the head; does that sound like anyone who is on the same planet as most of the service personnel and civil servants who are doing the day to day jobs which get things done.
At PUS level things are just numbers,statistics and production units; real people don't count; hence the buggering about in reorganisations such as the DES move to sunny Abbeywood from all over or moving the Met office to Exeter.
I bet it would be interesting to find out if she ever stayed in one place long enough to be accountable for the actual outcomes of any grand schemes she dreamed up.
It is interesting that she came from what is now the Dept for Work and Pensions; I used to work there and they have the worst terms and conditions in the civil service- guess where the MOD's are headed for both Service personnel and CS?
The article hints that other people avoided the job so it doesn't seem like she was first choice.
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Really Annoyed.
I really wish you were as angry as you pretend to be. If you were, you would've dropped dead of a heart attack by now and made this world a happier place. I hope to God you aren't in a leadership position in the RAF and I would be amazed if you were. You post like an absolute arse of the first order.
Taking a contrary extreme view to every opinion offered is 6th form debating club stuff. It isn't clever and it negates the occasional sensible post you put out.
Please feel free to put up a silly smiley face and call this a bite in a responding post. Nobody cares - honestly, grow up and let others express an opinion or post a rumour.
Wow, that felt good.
I really wish you were as angry as you pretend to be. If you were, you would've dropped dead of a heart attack by now and made this world a happier place. I hope to God you aren't in a leadership position in the RAF and I would be amazed if you were. You post like an absolute arse of the first order.
Taking a contrary extreme view to every opinion offered is 6th form debating club stuff. It isn't clever and it negates the occasional sensible post you put out.
Please feel free to put up a silly smiley face and call this a bite in a responding post. Nobody cares - honestly, grow up and let others express an opinion or post a rumour.
Wow, that felt good.
Pub quiz time, facetious is the only word with all the vowels in the correct order.....uncontinental is the opposite.
I'll get my coat...
SL (just a public sector worker)
I'll get my coat...
SL (just a public sector worker)