Junglie Merlins
The 2009 Memorandum submitted by the Ministry of Defence to the Defence Select Committee noted 42 Merlin Mk1’s and I'm not aware of any Mk1 losses since then.
As follows:
Merlin Mk 1 Qty 42 (see note 3) MoD is currently preparing to upgrade 30 (see note 4) of these aircraft through the Merlin Mk1 Capability Sustainment Programme.
Note 3: Four of these aircraft are in storage and have been cannibalised heavily; one has been extensively modified as part of a joint MoD/Industry technology demonstrator programme. Recovery to a fully serviceable condition would take significant time and investment. These aircraft are, under today's definitions, classified as effective until such time that a decision is taken to dispose of them.
Note 4: The Department reviewed its investment plans across a number of capability areas during 2008; this review was known as The Equipment Examination. As a result, the Department has determined that, given current defence priorities, it would not take up an option to modify an additional eight Merlin Mk1 aircraft and that its contractual commitment would remain at 30 aircraft. The Department is currently exploring whether the Department has further use for those aircraft not being modified under the Merlin Capability Sustainment Programme, they will otherwise be disposed of in the most cost effective way (including consideration of sales opportunities.)
Of the 8 remaining, surely the smart money is on them replacing the 13 aging Mk7 ASaC's, I mean why would the MoD add another airframe type and waste 8 unused cabs already in inventory.
With no competition likely as a result, this should be a nice little earner for AW/WHL.
As follows:
Merlin Mk 1 Qty 42 (see note 3) MoD is currently preparing to upgrade 30 (see note 4) of these aircraft through the Merlin Mk1 Capability Sustainment Programme.
Note 3: Four of these aircraft are in storage and have been cannibalised heavily; one has been extensively modified as part of a joint MoD/Industry technology demonstrator programme. Recovery to a fully serviceable condition would take significant time and investment. These aircraft are, under today's definitions, classified as effective until such time that a decision is taken to dispose of them.
Note 4: The Department reviewed its investment plans across a number of capability areas during 2008; this review was known as The Equipment Examination. As a result, the Department has determined that, given current defence priorities, it would not take up an option to modify an additional eight Merlin Mk1 aircraft and that its contractual commitment would remain at 30 aircraft. The Department is currently exploring whether the Department has further use for those aircraft not being modified under the Merlin Capability Sustainment Programme, they will otherwise be disposed of in the most cost effective way (including consideration of sales opportunities.)
Of the 8 remaining, surely the smart money is on them replacing the 13 aging Mk7 ASaC's, I mean why would the MoD add another airframe type and waste 8 unused cabs already in inventory.
With no competition likely as a result, this should be a nice little earner for AW/WHL.
Last edited by Hilife; 20th Jan 2011 at 13:16.
All this talk of ASAC Merlins is very jolly, but it's more pie-in-the-sky than eye-in-the-sky...
1. With SDSR being reopened, in a bid to make further savings, getting funding for this looks rather unlikely
2. What use is there for this when there is no fleet to protect (no carriers and no jets)?
3. Even if there was a demonstrable role, please remember that our current Government is happy to do without an MPA, so capability sabbaticals (rather than mere holidays) are all the rage at the moment.
Sorry to wee on your bonfire, but...
1. With SDSR being reopened, in a bid to make further savings, getting funding for this looks rather unlikely
2. What use is there for this when there is no fleet to protect (no carriers and no jets)?
3. Even if there was a demonstrable role, please remember that our current Government is happy to do without an MPA, so capability sabbaticals (rather than mere holidays) are all the rage at the moment.
Sorry to wee on your bonfire, but...
I agree that ASaC Merlins do not appear to be funded at the moment but the ASaC system has proven its value as a surface search & control asset as well as in its AEW role. Sure, with the Carrier gap there will be no FJ to control from carriers but they are extremely valuable in protecting our very scarce surface assets by extending sensor range massively over what can be provided from the top of a mast. The system has also proved its value in littoral & continental control roles.
I would suggest that ASaC Merlin is essential, not a nice to have. Unless those nice chaps from Waddington are going to be able to permanently station an E3-D over our deployed assets, whether we are deploying a Task Group or individual (but valuable) assets hunting boghammers?
I would suggest that ASaC Merlin is essential, not a nice to have. Unless those nice chaps from Waddington are going to be able to permanently station an E3-D over our deployed assets, whether we are deploying a Task Group or individual (but valuable) assets hunting boghammers?
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Thanks for the info. So from what I can gather, 4 entire MK1 airframes will never fly again due to extensive cannibalisation? 8 are currently about to be left to wither on the vine, converted to ASAC or sold off by MOD.
Hypothetically if some money were to appear - Out of the remaining 8 (that are already fully marinised) - what would be more important to UK Defence in the PPrune court of opinion, Jungly or ASAC?
Hypothetically if some money were to appear - Out of the remaining 8 (that are already fully marinised) - what would be more important to UK Defence in the PPrune court of opinion, Jungly or ASAC?
ASaC - that is a unique capability which cannot be easily replicated by anything else, indeed nothing else that is deployable to sea.
8 Junglie Merlin MK1 conversions are not enough to sustain a full capability &, as the light blue continually tell us we have other SH that can go to sea. (albeit without full marinisation)
8 Junglie Merlin MK1 conversions are not enough to sustain a full capability &, as the light blue continually tell us we have other SH that can go to sea. (albeit without full marinisation)
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With no competition likely as a result, this should be a nice little earner for AW/WHL.
More likely to be more money/work for Thales or whoever get to develop a radar to fit into the Merlin.
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AndyY,
8 is not enough to sustain a sqn, but 12 is (ie if we revisited the idea of resurrecting the cannibalised ones).
It would be extremely ironic, however if ASAC does not happen. Imagine the situation. RAF hand Mk3 to the RN and have to put their own aircrew out of work as a result after 10 years of hard graft making Mk3 work. MOD pay for marinisation of 25 Mk3/3a airframes. Down the line there is no funding for ASAC. The 8 perfectly serviceable and already marinised RN Mk1 airframes(whose age and cockpits are v similar to Mk3) get sold off to Johnny Foreigner for small beer along with the 4 that will never fly again. CAS will be crying into his Dubonnet - and with good reason.
Think I might write a book - now what was that title?, 'Lionesses, asses and prehistoric reptiles'.........
8 is not enough to sustain a sqn, but 12 is (ie if we revisited the idea of resurrecting the cannibalised ones).
It would be extremely ironic, however if ASAC does not happen. Imagine the situation. RAF hand Mk3 to the RN and have to put their own aircrew out of work as a result after 10 years of hard graft making Mk3 work. MOD pay for marinisation of 25 Mk3/3a airframes. Down the line there is no funding for ASAC. The 8 perfectly serviceable and already marinised RN Mk1 airframes(whose age and cockpits are v similar to Mk3) get sold off to Johnny Foreigner for small beer along with the 4 that will never fly again. CAS will be crying into his Dubonnet - and with good reason.
Think I might write a book - now what was that title?, 'Lionesses, asses and prehistoric reptiles'.........
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some observations
ref tallsars proposal, lets compare a SK4 to a Mk3
so exactly what range/altitude/endurance has the SK got with 24 equipped troops onboard loaded up the ramp, plus a digimap, DIRCM, 10000lb cargo hook, crashworthy seats, self sealing fuel tanks and ANR headsets. I know lets not carry the troops, instead lets put 3 pallets of 105 ammo in the cabin and move it at 150 kts.... Sorry forget the ammo, just stick a vehicle (loandrover)inside (provided you can get it through the SK cargo door of course)
Merelin brings more to the table than just lift.
The Merlin ASAC proposal (mocked up an Yeovilton airshow last year) uses a ramp aperture to deploy the ex Mk7 radar, no obscuration due to the fuselage and no sponson conflict. I guess the idea is to unzip the aft end and stick a ramp one on the Mk1 fuselage. Seems like a sensible use of assets to me
DM
so exactly what range/altitude/endurance has the SK got with 24 equipped troops onboard loaded up the ramp, plus a digimap, DIRCM, 10000lb cargo hook, crashworthy seats, self sealing fuel tanks and ANR headsets. I know lets not carry the troops, instead lets put 3 pallets of 105 ammo in the cabin and move it at 150 kts.... Sorry forget the ammo, just stick a vehicle (loandrover)inside (provided you can get it through the SK cargo door of course)
Merelin brings more to the table than just lift.
The Merlin ASAC proposal (mocked up an Yeovilton airshow last year) uses a ramp aperture to deploy the ex Mk7 radar, no obscuration due to the fuselage and no sponson conflict. I guess the idea is to unzip the aft end and stick a ramp one on the Mk1 fuselage. Seems like a sensible use of assets to me
DM
so exactly what range/altitude/endurance has the SK got with 24 equipped troops onboard loaded up the ramp, plus a digimap, DIRCM, 10000lb cargo hook, crashworthy seats, self sealing fuel tanks and ANR headsets. I know lets not carry the troops, instead lets put 3 pallets of 105 ammo in the cabin and move it at 150 kts.... Sorry forget the ammo, just stick a vehicle (loandrover)inside (provided you can get it through the SK cargo door of course)
Merelin brings more to the table than just lift.
The Merlin ASAC proposal (mocked up an Yeovilton airshow last year) uses a ramp aperture to deploy the ex Mk7 radar, no obscuration due to the fuselage and no sponson conflict. I guess the idea is to unzip the aft end and stick a ramp one on the Mk1 fuselage. Seems like a sensible use of assets to me
Merelin brings more to the table than just lift.
The Merlin ASAC proposal (mocked up an Yeovilton airshow last year) uses a ramp aperture to deploy the ex Mk7 radar, no obscuration due to the fuselage and no sponson conflict. I guess the idea is to unzip the aft end and stick a ramp one on the Mk1 fuselage. Seems like a sensible use of assets to me
Sorry forget the ammo, just stick a vehicle (loandrover)inside (provided you can get it through the SK cargo door of course)
I believe the landrover in the AW publicity was scaled down. I may be wrong, and that may be an urban myth.
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MGD, yes you can get one in, no you don't strip the cabin out( just fold the seats) yes the roof of the LR has to be folded down and yes it takes some time so no we don't do it for real. Happy?
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And as we don't really operate foldie roof landrovers anymore sausage side, MGD is technically correct(inspite of his small weiner complex). 3 Pallets of ammo? How do you quickly on and offload them? Yes a CH-47 can with CHICS, but a Merlin can't due to ramp cable snagging issues and the proximity of the tail rotor to the ground. How is it in the snow and the mountains? Poor slope limits especially nose down. A high CG due to the topdeck weight, and a pig to land in snow due to heavy downwash and a tricycle undercarriage.
Speed(without a load) and range are significant advantages though. But start trading fuel for payload in high DAs and it is not much better than the newly uprated Lynx in the summer.
Speed(without a load) and range are significant advantages though. But start trading fuel for payload in high DAs and it is not much better than the newly uprated Lynx in the summer.
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Just to put the record straight. Internal vehicles are almost a thing of the past for even the mighty hook. This is because of the BOWMEN project which made the majority of the helicopter airportable vehicles un-airportable. Further to this as most vehicles that are driven on the battle field are now armoured they either exceed the floor loading limits or the available ac payload. I believe the vehicle in question pictured in the original EHI 01 was not a landrover but an Italian utility vehicle. The only wheeled vehicle I have seen in a Mk 3 is a John Deere GATOR.
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Viking (BvS10) Amphibious Armoured All-Terrain Vehicle - Army Technology
or even
and a strip down UK 110 Load Raver has been loaded in practice many times by virtually every OCF course for the first few years.
The vehicle can be deployed from all Royal Marines landing craft and transported to the area of operations by C-130 Hercules and C-17 Globemaster. The unladen Viking can be underslung and airlifted by an RAF Chinook helicopter. The Viking can be split into two sections in just 20 minutes to be carried by the Merlin helicopter.
and a strip down UK 110 Load Raver has been loaded in practice many times by virtually every OCF course for the first few years.
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MGD,
You know the age old argument about putting all of your eggs in one basket and then dropping it? What we have at the moment is the correct mix of helos in terms of size to task. At the risk of getting back towards the thread (after your crewman-off with Wizard) the junglies would get a viable cab, after a lot of hard work by the light blue.
True it does suffer in the high DAs but it still adds to the party. Better than the seaking mk4, but then most things are. Do the RN understand enough about what it can and can't do? Not judging by some of the wild ideas being chucked about on this forum. Would it be a good use of taxpayer dollar to modify it for ship use? Not when there are 8-12 unused RN Mk1s in the system, which we may well sell on at cut price if the funding for ASAC dries up. Will it cost a lot to marinise, and then train and maintain the aircrew and maintainers over the long term - almost certainly.
What about this for a DS solution? Junglies get the 8-12 ready marinised Mk1s from Fleet and slim down a bit. This is based on one carrier/Ocean at sea at any one time. If and when ASAC is funded, the RAF cough up the 6 Danish Mk3a and they get marinised. This is based on the small number of ASAC in a typical CAG (2-3?) We maintain AFG Ops as is and don't have to pay for a whole fleet to be marinised and re-trained. Austere solutions for austere times.....
The question is - can we afford it?
You know the age old argument about putting all of your eggs in one basket and then dropping it? What we have at the moment is the correct mix of helos in terms of size to task. At the risk of getting back towards the thread (after your crewman-off with Wizard) the junglies would get a viable cab, after a lot of hard work by the light blue.
True it does suffer in the high DAs but it still adds to the party. Better than the seaking mk4, but then most things are. Do the RN understand enough about what it can and can't do? Not judging by some of the wild ideas being chucked about on this forum. Would it be a good use of taxpayer dollar to modify it for ship use? Not when there are 8-12 unused RN Mk1s in the system, which we may well sell on at cut price if the funding for ASAC dries up. Will it cost a lot to marinise, and then train and maintain the aircrew and maintainers over the long term - almost certainly.
What about this for a DS solution? Junglies get the 8-12 ready marinised Mk1s from Fleet and slim down a bit. This is based on one carrier/Ocean at sea at any one time. If and when ASAC is funded, the RAF cough up the 6 Danish Mk3a and they get marinised. This is based on the small number of ASAC in a typical CAG (2-3?) We maintain AFG Ops as is and don't have to pay for a whole fleet to be marinised and re-trained. Austere solutions for austere times.....
The question is - can we afford it?
Last edited by high spirits; 21st Jan 2011 at 07:37.
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So we are replacing 36 Sea King HC4's with 8-12 Merlin Mk1's? Slight capability drop when you consider that 2/3 of those Mk1's will be in Depth at (probably) the same time. And what about IRR a/c?
No go-er as far as I can see wrt replacing a capability.
No go-er as far as I can see wrt replacing a capability.