Junglie Merlins
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Guided Weapons,
At this stage (pre-Planning Round) I think I will put my slice on hold if it is ok with you - and please remember that I have only watched with interest at how the hierarchy of all 3 services have gone for the jugular as the treasury have taken a step back rubbing their hands with glee as we fight amongst ourselves.
My personal stance on this has always been that our light blue staff officers have always seemed to be one step ahead of your dark blue bretheren - just look at the actually amazement how Harrier and the carrier removal from service caused such draw dropping shock. You have to admit it was a very bold and risky move by CAS to make a land grab for Merlin only the day after SDSR, that again you must admit looked as though it would pay off for us.
I actually respond to strong leadership (even if bad news) and where it has been distinctly lacking with our own CAS, and I suppose judging by the Fishead posts, also 1SL - I do accept (and respect) a Prime Minister that actually grips a situation and makes a decision.
MGD
I know it is going to be emotional for us (and to be straight I think the Fisheads may come to regret their enthusiasm for taking over the Freaks - by all accounts it is not a happy place to be at the moment)......but....
Lets stop it, certainly at our level....lets move on. You and I can rest assured that we actually operate the aircraft that guys on the ground really want and also in the fact that hopefully now that the Fisheads do have a new toy that the likes of you and I do not have to waste months of our lives on that morale vacuum known as the O Boat (or any other Fishead floaty thing).
We have some work to do (together) if we are going to get anywhere in the future (and I think about that Afghan crocodile that is still very much the closest to our canoe) and start to put all of this negative rubbish behind us now.
At this stage (pre-Planning Round) I think I will put my slice on hold if it is ok with you - and please remember that I have only watched with interest at how the hierarchy of all 3 services have gone for the jugular as the treasury have taken a step back rubbing their hands with glee as we fight amongst ourselves.
My personal stance on this has always been that our light blue staff officers have always seemed to be one step ahead of your dark blue bretheren - just look at the actually amazement how Harrier and the carrier removal from service caused such draw dropping shock. You have to admit it was a very bold and risky move by CAS to make a land grab for Merlin only the day after SDSR, that again you must admit looked as though it would pay off for us.
I actually respond to strong leadership (even if bad news) and where it has been distinctly lacking with our own CAS, and I suppose judging by the Fishead posts, also 1SL - I do accept (and respect) a Prime Minister that actually grips a situation and makes a decision.
MGD
I know it is going to be emotional for us (and to be straight I think the Fisheads may come to regret their enthusiasm for taking over the Freaks - by all accounts it is not a happy place to be at the moment)......but....
Lets stop it, certainly at our level....lets move on. You and I can rest assured that we actually operate the aircraft that guys on the ground really want and also in the fact that hopefully now that the Fisheads do have a new toy that the likes of you and I do not have to waste months of our lives on that morale vacuum known as the O Boat (or any other Fishead floaty thing).
We have some work to do (together) if we are going to get anywhere in the future (and I think about that Afghan crocodile that is still very much the closest to our canoe) and start to put all of this negative rubbish behind us now.
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Latest rumour I have is no new CH-47, other than 2 x attritional spares and a bitter pill for both light and dark blue. Losing one Sqn each and Joint Force Merlin. With the current availability of training airframes the dark blue will just about be able to muster a Sqn by 2018.....and I'm not joking.
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If the additional CH47 are cancelled (and that would not surprise me an iota) and the associated funding for modernisation of Odiham is withdrawn, then they are in deep quano regarding accomodation and real estate. It could get very ugly, very quickly and could epitomise an implosion within the RAF. I have heard too often folk talk about returning to OMQ/FMQ if home to duty is reduced or removed, and fuel prices being out of control will inflame that particular furnace. It is rapidly getting to the point were you would not want to be part of the aftermath of 2015. Worst still, these are the thoughts of a serviceman; whereas the citizens of the UK have no idea how insecure the defence of the country is becoming.
Countdown to UK Defence Force Plc has begun.
Countdown to UK Defence Force Plc has begun.
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b£oody Hell
High Spirits,
Are you sure about your info - I agree with everyone that nothing would surprise me, but even the most dim witted bean counter, scrutineer and politician recognise that this will place us back to where we were at the beginning when Brown withdrew funding for FMH and other rotary projects that then prompted the NAO report of 2003 - and delaying spending on projects now cost significantly more in the future - significantly more as airframes drop off the perch.
If there is to be this reduction of helicopters - Sea King in the next 6-8 years and Puma in 10 or so, then that leaves a very very small rotary wing fleet indeed.
A decision like that would be political suicide wouldn't it? How could any politician stand up in front of the country for the next war after Afghanistan and apologise for repeating the same lessons learned (i.e. not enough helicopters).
If we do not get the CH47 buy, then that is it - the game is over and we really are adopting an isolationist policy and withdrawing from the world stage.
That will be it and heaven forbid if this country does have floods on the scale that the rest of the world seems to be having, or a requirement to lift stranded tourists from countries around the globe that have rapidly defied all strategic reviews and suddenly tumbled into instability - let alone do any of the air mobility/manoeuvre that the pongos want in order to bounce them around the battle fields of tomorrow so they dont have to get blown up by roadside bombs, or bogged down in unsuitable terrain etc - madness
Are you sure about your info - I agree with everyone that nothing would surprise me, but even the most dim witted bean counter, scrutineer and politician recognise that this will place us back to where we were at the beginning when Brown withdrew funding for FMH and other rotary projects that then prompted the NAO report of 2003 - and delaying spending on projects now cost significantly more in the future - significantly more as airframes drop off the perch.
If there is to be this reduction of helicopters - Sea King in the next 6-8 years and Puma in 10 or so, then that leaves a very very small rotary wing fleet indeed.
A decision like that would be political suicide wouldn't it? How could any politician stand up in front of the country for the next war after Afghanistan and apologise for repeating the same lessons learned (i.e. not enough helicopters).
If we do not get the CH47 buy, then that is it - the game is over and we really are adopting an isolationist policy and withdrawing from the world stage.
That will be it and heaven forbid if this country does have floods on the scale that the rest of the world seems to be having, or a requirement to lift stranded tourists from countries around the globe that have rapidly defied all strategic reviews and suddenly tumbled into instability - let alone do any of the air mobility/manoeuvre that the pongos want in order to bounce them around the battle fields of tomorrow so they dont have to get blown up by roadside bombs, or bogged down in unsuitable terrain etc - madness
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No money in the pot and no overdraft available. An easy sell to any taxpayer when told the only way to get more helicopters is for the taxpayer, NHS, Schools etc etc to pay for it.
The Armed Forces; it like all at MoD is sucking its thumb in the corner and licking its wounds. We must leave the world stage for we cannot afford it. China is the leader in the economic world with massive investment in African natural rescources. They are not peacekeeping and do not give two hoots what the western world thing about human rights issues. I cannot help but think that China has its priorities right including the defence of the nation. The UK is bankrupt; and it is not alone. The buzzword for 2011/12 will become "moratorium" I am sure of it.
Once free of the Afghan burden, I suspect Govt will be very selective at what world affairs it chooses to see. The US special relationship will die a death if it hasnt already. If the Germans bin the Euro currency I can potentialy see the EU collapsing and where will that leave any Anglo-French pact?
Still not convinced that Puma will see another 10 years out. I agree that Joint Force Merlin is likely and an RAF Sqn likely to disband and replaced in situ by a CHF Sqn No.
The Armed Forces; it like all at MoD is sucking its thumb in the corner and licking its wounds. We must leave the world stage for we cannot afford it. China is the leader in the economic world with massive investment in African natural rescources. They are not peacekeeping and do not give two hoots what the western world thing about human rights issues. I cannot help but think that China has its priorities right including the defence of the nation. The UK is bankrupt; and it is not alone. The buzzword for 2011/12 will become "moratorium" I am sure of it.
Once free of the Afghan burden, I suspect Govt will be very selective at what world affairs it chooses to see. The US special relationship will die a death if it hasnt already. If the Germans bin the Euro currency I can potentialy see the EU collapsing and where will that leave any Anglo-French pact?
Still not convinced that Puma will see another 10 years out. I agree that Joint Force Merlin is likely and an RAF Sqn likely to disband and replaced in situ by a CHF Sqn No.
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I had heard that alot of this was down to tgw planned OSD of Merlin and the projected cost of a Mid life upgrade.
The penny pinchers could wrap the two ideas together....and the Junglies get a new aircraft!
Ralph
The penny pinchers could wrap the two ideas together....and the Junglies get a new aircraft!
Ralph
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Unnecessary Rumour and Conjecture....
Perhaps High Spirit's latest unfounded conjecture (...pretty easy to stir this debate with rumour not backed up by fact...) strengthens my case at post 36 for an early response by CAS to the PM's written answer to the pre- Christmas PMQ (his office will have been consulted to provide said answer) which could quash many of the single-service "kite-flying" exercises being witnessed on a daily basis.
Some strong leadership required!
H-W
Some strong leadership required!
H-W
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SL H-W,
May I have the honour to apologise unreservedly for posting a rumour on a......'rumour network'. Given where you post from, you are probably some Melchett who is far more in the know about what goes on on the 5th floor of 'town' than a lowly minion like moi.
However the option is on the table. Why? Massive cost of marinisation versus an MOD who don't have a pot to p*ss in and can't afford a window to throw it out of. Delay or cancel the buy until after PR11, save yourselves a packet to put towards a blade fold/tail fold programme. Bean counting butt munchers will love it as an option. Why should CAS reply now - the PR negotiations have not finished?
May I have the honour to apologise unreservedly for posting a rumour on a......'rumour network'. Given where you post from, you are probably some Melchett who is far more in the know about what goes on on the 5th floor of 'town' than a lowly minion like moi.
However the option is on the table. Why? Massive cost of marinisation versus an MOD who don't have a pot to p*ss in and can't afford a window to throw it out of. Delay or cancel the buy until after PR11, save yourselves a packet to put towards a blade fold/tail fold programme. Bean counting butt munchers will love it as an option. Why should CAS reply now - the PR negotiations have not finished?
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Well, as I understood it the money for the chinook buy was the offset for shelving the mil involvement in UK SAR. But the SAR-H project now appears in tatters (see other thread on rotorheads for that gossip) so the cancellation of the chinook buy is because HMG needs to purchase shiny new helicopters (cheap S92s from cancellation of SAR-H contract) to replace the ageing Sea Kings. Protecting ones own shores & people from floods etc. will win more votes in the long run.
With UK forces out of the sand by 2015 any more heavy lift is a waste of money anyway as it wont be available in time
and when has any govt really concerned itself about what might be next around the corner 
Whats left of Merlin/Chinook will stay RAF & the RN will be re-branded coastal command & will take on UK SAR in the S92 because it doesn't have any ships to go to sea on.
This defence review stuff is easy really
With UK forces out of the sand by 2015 any more heavy lift is a waste of money anyway as it wont be available in time
and when has any govt really concerned itself about what might be next around the corner Whats left of Merlin/Chinook will stay RAF & the RN will be re-branded coastal command & will take on UK SAR in the S92 because it doesn't have any ships to go to sea on.
This defence review stuff is easy really
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SW - great stuff...now thats what I call really good policy making on the hoof.......step aside CAS (and all his minions) - get on in there SW ...Your Country Needs you...Now please!
and no doubt the RN Coastal command could have a secondary role as the CHF to occaisionally deploy a few cabs on our one and only amphib boat
.........how cost-effective is that!
PS can you also find a bit of cash to buy a few leather arm chairs to keep the crew rooms going too please!
Cheers
and no doubt the RN Coastal command could have a secondary role as the CHF to occaisionally deploy a few cabs on our one and only amphib boat
.........how cost-effective is that!PS can you also find a bit of cash to buy a few leather arm chairs to keep the crew rooms going too please!
Cheers
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Oh and from a grav's pov, when I was on the ground in South Armagh in the 80's and 90's with typical Norn Irish weather it would only be the junglie Wessex and latterly SK4 that would pick us up, our hearts sank if we heard a RAF cab was being sent; we then had to look forward to our yomp back into XMG or Forkhill"
If we'd known that at the time we'd have let you yomp back you ungrateful b@@s£rd. What did you do when your precious Junglies weren't there? The vast majority of the humpin' and dumpin' in Norn Ireland was done by the boys on permanent posting to the emerald isle and they were Army and RAF!!
That is my point. When the Junglies weren't there and the weather was poor, then we would walk. Not all, but many RAF crews couldn't be bothered to push the limits a little to go and get the troops on the ground. On the other hand, most Junglies would always give it a go. I also noticed this attitude whilst in Buzzard Ops. Recently when waiting in the departure lounge @ BZN to fly to KAF, the Tri-Star went u/s, and all assembled were told to report back 24 hrs later. No announcement from the crew as to why. A senior Air Force officer with whom I was travelling asked the Loadmaster/ Flight Attendant, whether they would advise the pax. He was astounded when his reply was along the lines of...' they don't need to know, they're just troops....'. After said Senior Off picked himself off the floor and rebriefed the MALM, the Captain grudgingly made an announcement over the tannoy. Is this attitude to 'troops' prevalent through all the RAF???
If we'd known that at the time we'd have let you yomp back you ungrateful b@@s£rd. What did you do when your precious Junglies weren't there? The vast majority of the humpin' and dumpin' in Norn Ireland was done by the boys on permanent posting to the emerald isle and they were Army and RAF!!
That is my point. When the Junglies weren't there and the weather was poor, then we would walk. Not all, but many RAF crews couldn't be bothered to push the limits a little to go and get the troops on the ground. On the other hand, most Junglies would always give it a go. I also noticed this attitude whilst in Buzzard Ops. Recently when waiting in the departure lounge @ BZN to fly to KAF, the Tri-Star went u/s, and all assembled were told to report back 24 hrs later. No announcement from the crew as to why. A senior Air Force officer with whom I was travelling asked the Loadmaster/ Flight Attendant, whether they would advise the pax. He was astounded when his reply was along the lines of...' they don't need to know, they're just troops....'. After said Senior Off picked himself off the floor and rebriefed the MALM, the Captain grudgingly made an announcement over the tannoy. Is this attitude to 'troops' prevalent through all the RAF???
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NI....
I don't believe a word of that.
As an ex-MALM and a former SHFNI crewman I can assure you that there was no institutional "can't be arsed / let 'em walk" attitude on the RAF Sqns. This is simply single service jingoism.
We pushed the limits on a daily basis. Now if you said we wouldn't break the limits to stop you walking, that's different. And if your measure of a quality crew is their willingness to break the rules for non urgent / life threatening situations, then that speaks volumes of your lack of professionalism as an aviator.
And as for a MALM telling a VSO that the troops don´t need to know... whilst he might have thought that or been bloody minded enough to think that, I doubt he would be stupid enough to leave himself and his crew wide open by admitting it to a VSO.
I have been delayed getting to KAF as well, and on every occasion when we were on board the a/c the crew kept us informed.
Now in the terminal with Brize movs.... that´s a different story.
And finally, nice inflammatory language here -"Loadmaster/ Flight Attendant". Which was it? One is a WO and the other an SAC. Bit different. Oh you scoundrel, you're trying to wind us up with a bit bit more playground banter
I don't believe a word of that.
As an ex-MALM and a former SHFNI crewman I can assure you that there was no institutional "can't be arsed / let 'em walk" attitude on the RAF Sqns. This is simply single service jingoism.
We pushed the limits on a daily basis. Now if you said we wouldn't break the limits to stop you walking, that's different. And if your measure of a quality crew is their willingness to break the rules for non urgent / life threatening situations, then that speaks volumes of your lack of professionalism as an aviator.
And as for a MALM telling a VSO that the troops don´t need to know... whilst he might have thought that or been bloody minded enough to think that, I doubt he would be stupid enough to leave himself and his crew wide open by admitting it to a VSO.
I have been delayed getting to KAF as well, and on every occasion when we were on board the a/c the crew kept us informed.
Now in the terminal with Brize movs.... that´s a different story.
And finally, nice inflammatory language here -"Loadmaster/ Flight Attendant". Which was it? One is a WO and the other an SAC. Bit different. Oh you scoundrel, you're trying to wind us up with a bit bit more playground banter
There has always been an urban legend in the army that the junglies will come and get you whatever the weather, even on Xmas day, and the lazy crabs won't leave their five-star hotels if it is the weekend, after 4pm, or raining. I've never seen any evidence to support the legend.
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I have.
Operationally critical part (something do with a gearbox) to be delivered to NIPV at anchor on a Saturday morning by RAF Wessex. Phone call taken - direct quote - "we're having a dining out [friday], could we bring it on Monday instead?".
That's not intended to knock the Crabs - they did a fine job on the whole, but to say they were as efficient and flexible as the Junglies is not the case in my experience.
Operationally critical part (something do with a gearbox) to be delivered to NIPV at anchor on a Saturday morning by RAF Wessex. Phone call taken - direct quote - "we're having a dining out [friday], could we bring it on Monday instead?".
That's not intended to knock the Crabs - they did a fine job on the whole, but to say they were as efficient and flexible as the Junglies is not the case in my experience.
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There will always be "jack" individuals regardless of service.
And D O G, I bet the rest of the story went "....we (NIPV) said, sorry mate we need the part asap", and the crew said "ok" and flew it out. not such as good story though is it? Don't use sound bites to make a story, tell the whole story.
My point is you shouldn't tar us all with the same brush, There was no policy of making soldiers walk and certainly any crew I worked on worked up to the limits and sometimes beyond, provided the task justified the risk.
I have equally come very close to being killed for bone Army tasks. Notably on one occasion being sent out on a Priority 1 task late at night in foul weather to one of the towers to recover a video with "vital int" on it. Turned out to be an overdue video from the NAAFI.
And back to the original thread..
If the CHF really want them that badly, and the Army can take the loss of capability for 2 to 3 years, let them go. They really have no idea what a mire they are getting into and will regret the decision for years to come.
And D O G, I bet the rest of the story went "....we (NIPV) said, sorry mate we need the part asap", and the crew said "ok" and flew it out. not such as good story though is it? Don't use sound bites to make a story, tell the whole story.
My point is you shouldn't tar us all with the same brush, There was no policy of making soldiers walk and certainly any crew I worked on worked up to the limits and sometimes beyond, provided the task justified the risk.
I have equally come very close to being killed for bone Army tasks. Notably on one occasion being sent out on a Priority 1 task late at night in foul weather to one of the towers to recover a video with "vital int" on it. Turned out to be an overdue video from the NAAFI.
And back to the original thread..
If the CHF really want them that badly, and the Army can take the loss of capability for 2 to 3 years, let them go. They really have no idea what a mire they are getting into and will regret the decision for years to come.
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Please don't let this degenerate into a 'whose better at the job' nob waving fest. Ireland/Bosnia are sooo last war! Agreed, it may well happen. However when the booties find that it can only just wobble airborne with half a navs lunchbox post marinisation they will drop it like a stone and utilise the chinook to get their boots on the ground anyway.
Post blade spread and tail fold fit, it will struggle with the booties gun underslung, big style, esp if the conflict is further inland. And if it can lift the gun, then it will have to return for the gun crew. The RN and the booties will finally then see the enormous penny falling from the sky...............which will hopefully sink that deathtrap known as Ocean!
Post blade spread and tail fold fit, it will struggle with the booties gun underslung, big style, esp if the conflict is further inland. And if it can lift the gun, then it will have to return for the gun crew. The RN and the booties will finally then see the enormous penny falling from the sky...............which will hopefully sink that deathtrap known as Ocean!