New Falklands War Brewing
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"may make the normal supportive noises, but none of them have any intention of getting into a situation where because of the FI, they are unable to trade with the EU..."
+ 1
For all the flapping gums, in the end it will be the fat cow all on her own.
Interesting to see the number of reports that show the general population
view her rantings as rantings and wish it would just die.
+ 1
For all the flapping gums, in the end it will be the fat cow all on her own.
Interesting to see the number of reports that show the general population
view her rantings as rantings and wish it would just die.
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I wonder why the UK held secret talks to cede sovereignty of the Falklands to the Argentine Junta. Maybe self determination wasn't relevant?
UK held secret talks to cede sovereignty | UK news | The Guardian
Its not a one way street and history doesn't have that Delete button.
UK held secret talks to cede sovereignty | UK news | The Guardian
Its not a one way street and history doesn't have that Delete button.
So all you can do when faced with the current status, is find a 7 year old newspaper report on events that happened 30+ years ago. Bzzzz - irrelevant! The current UK stance is that the Falkland Islanders have the right to self determination - as enshrined in the UN Charter. Come on Keesje, you have to do better in the face of overwhelming evidence that you are the one in the global minority.
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Keesje
True but.......
1977:
Newly elected British Labour government reopens sovereignty negotiations and sends Minister of State Edward Rowlands to Islands to obtain Islanders' views. Britain secretly sends a nuclear submarine and two frigates to the South Atlantic in response to Argentine preparations for naval 'manoeuvres' which then halt.
1980:
New talks held between Britain and Argentina in April. Minister of State Nicholas Ridley visits to discuss sovereignty dispute but fails to persuade Islanders to accept 'leaseback' proposal.
1981:
British Nationality Act removes British nationality from any Falkland Islander who does not have a parent or grandparent born in Britain. Falkland Islands Government protest to British Parliament over sovereignty negotiations. British Parliament reaffirms 'paramountcy' of Islanders' wishes. Argentina protests to UN over lack of progress on sovereignty dispute.
Etc etc
True but.......
1977:
Newly elected British Labour government reopens sovereignty negotiations and sends Minister of State Edward Rowlands to Islands to obtain Islanders' views. Britain secretly sends a nuclear submarine and two frigates to the South Atlantic in response to Argentine preparations for naval 'manoeuvres' which then halt.
1980:
New talks held between Britain and Argentina in April. Minister of State Nicholas Ridley visits to discuss sovereignty dispute but fails to persuade Islanders to accept 'leaseback' proposal.
1981:
British Nationality Act removes British nationality from any Falkland Islander who does not have a parent or grandparent born in Britain. Falkland Islands Government protest to British Parliament over sovereignty negotiations. British Parliament reaffirms 'paramountcy' of Islanders' wishes. Argentina protests to UN over lack of progress on sovereignty dispute.
Etc etc
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That a UK government would seriously consider negotiating away the sovereignty of the Islands isn't beyond the realms of possibility.
In late May 1982, Tony Blair was contesting the Beaconsfield by-election. He was picked up on a microphone by a TV crew following the various candidates, saying that the islanders cannot be allowed to dictate UK government policy.
Pretty much goes to show a Labour Government's 'policy' towards self-determination of indigenous people.
So a Conservative-led UK government systematically dismantled HM Armed Forces & Foreign Office Intelligence gathering capability in South America was reduced to a bar worker in Rio', but, as some detractors scream, the Falkland's Conflict saved a doomed Maggie. I wonder what would've happened on Labour's watch.
Opportunists, appeasers, bone-idle, gravy train riding, liars, con-men & egotists wrapped up in their own little world of self dillusion, self congratulation, self importance & their own unique blend of ignorance & arrogance are the genetic make up of today's political apparatchiks. The age of the Statesman is dead. God help us all.
In late May 1982, Tony Blair was contesting the Beaconsfield by-election. He was picked up on a microphone by a TV crew following the various candidates, saying that the islanders cannot be allowed to dictate UK government policy.
Pretty much goes to show a Labour Government's 'policy' towards self-determination of indigenous people.
So a Conservative-led UK government systematically dismantled HM Armed Forces & Foreign Office Intelligence gathering capability in South America was reduced to a bar worker in Rio', but, as some detractors scream, the Falkland's Conflict saved a doomed Maggie. I wonder what would've happened on Labour's watch.
Opportunists, appeasers, bone-idle, gravy train riding, liars, con-men & egotists wrapped up in their own little world of self dillusion, self congratulation, self importance & their own unique blend of ignorance & arrogance are the genetic make up of today's political apparatchiks. The age of the Statesman is dead. God help us all.
keejse,
"Its not a one way street...."
An ironic comment, as from where I sit, THAT IS EXACTLY THE WAY YOU CONDUCT YOUR OWN BUSINESS.
You fail to engage, respond to reported errors in your "facts", interpretations or arguments - you quite happily retain your own version of a "one way street" trying to brush off any counter argument as merely abuse and "shooting the messenger", or as an act of jingoism.
I refer you to post 1316, which I note you failed to respond to in any manner.
I can only conclude that you enjoy pursuing your course of action as a form of personal entertainment rather than any form of reasoned discussion.
"Its not a one way street...."
An ironic comment, as from where I sit, THAT IS EXACTLY THE WAY YOU CONDUCT YOUR OWN BUSINESS.
You fail to engage, respond to reported errors in your "facts", interpretations or arguments - you quite happily retain your own version of a "one way street" trying to brush off any counter argument as merely abuse and "shooting the messenger", or as an act of jingoism.
I refer you to post 1316, which I note you failed to respond to in any manner.
I can only conclude that you enjoy pursuing your course of action as a form of personal entertainment rather than any form of reasoned discussion.
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Keesje
what do you think about my suggestion of handing Holland back to its historic rightful rulers, Spain? As I said before, historically Holland is nothing more than a renegade Spanish state
what do you think about my suggestion of handing Holland back to its historic rightful rulers, Spain? As I said before, historically Holland is nothing more than a renegade Spanish state
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Milo, that's not fair. They should be able to keep all the bits they drained.
Milo, while that isn't a completely bad idea, I am afraid that the Spanish would screw it up.
I would vote against the handover (were I allowed to vote on it) out of the personally selfish reasons of wishing not to extend the goat rope that is Latinate societal and governmental forms as a replacement for a more organized and rational system.
The above brings to mind why I find the idea of handing over the Falklands to the Argentines abhorent.
I would vote against the handover (were I allowed to vote on it) out of the personally selfish reasons of wishing not to extend the goat rope that is Latinate societal and governmental forms as a replacement for a more organized and rational system.
The above brings to mind why I find the idea of handing over the Falklands to the Argentines abhorent.
Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 5th Feb 2013 at 21:35.
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Biggus question :
Biggus, I'm surprized you couldn't see the answer yourself.
I saw this topic and was amazed by the senseless war mongering, Rambo talk, double standards, discrimination and selective use of rights, historical perspectives and double morale displayed by some of the members.
It was only logical to inform them that there are different views in the world and that colonialism is a forgotten word elsewhere. The Brits standing strong behind the right for self determination makes historians faint.
The reactions on this were in no particular order good civil replies, childish name calling, attempted diversions, opportunist discrediting of sources and singing the national anthem.
Some posts show intelligent analyses and individual opinions, some members seem incompetent in that respect.
The guys did their job 30 years ago as ordered. Respect to them. It doesn't mean it will make everyone proud in another 30 years. For some a scary reality.
To finish I'll return to my original question - WHAT IS YOUR POINT!!
I saw this topic and was amazed by the senseless war mongering, Rambo talk, double standards, discrimination and selective use of rights, historical perspectives and double morale displayed by some of the members.
It was only logical to inform them that there are different views in the world and that colonialism is a forgotten word elsewhere. The Brits standing strong behind the right for self determination makes historians faint.
The reactions on this were in no particular order good civil replies, childish name calling, attempted diversions, opportunist discrediting of sources and singing the national anthem.
Some posts show intelligent analyses and individual opinions, some members seem incompetent in that respect.
The guys did their job 30 years ago as ordered. Respect to them. It doesn't mean it will make everyone proud in another 30 years. For some a scary reality.
Last edited by keesje; 5th Feb 2013 at 22:39.
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Keesje,
Winston Churchill once said "History is written by the victors", however, despite it being a typical Churchill insight, it's debatable whether it's still true.
Yesterday is still history but the majority of recent history is dissected and analysed in infinite detail in a far shorter time scale.
30 years ago is a long time ago by today's standards (although not for some), summing up:
Argentina was the aggressor and it's motives were not entirely non-political.
To avoid being accused of jingoism/double-standards, the decision by the British government to respond with military action (and win), boosted the Government's ratings to some advantage.
Having fought and won the battle at no small cost, it made sense to enhance the existing defences to ensure that Argentina wouldn't try again.
Economic arguments aside, the only issues are:
A) Did the British government give the Falkland Islanders a reasonable opportunity to determine where their allegiances lay?
B) If the answer to the above is yes and the Islanders mandate was accurately interpreted and reported, what could the British government reasonably do?
30 years from now, I'd like to think that some sort of peaceful solution will have been agreed, but for now could we just leave it that the Falkland Islanders wish to remain associated with Britain and not Argentina.
Winston Churchill once said "History is written by the victors", however, despite it being a typical Churchill insight, it's debatable whether it's still true.
Yesterday is still history but the majority of recent history is dissected and analysed in infinite detail in a far shorter time scale.
30 years ago is a long time ago by today's standards (although not for some), summing up:
Argentina was the aggressor and it's motives were not entirely non-political.
To avoid being accused of jingoism/double-standards, the decision by the British government to respond with military action (and win), boosted the Government's ratings to some advantage.
Having fought and won the battle at no small cost, it made sense to enhance the existing defences to ensure that Argentina wouldn't try again.
Economic arguments aside, the only issues are:
A) Did the British government give the Falkland Islanders a reasonable opportunity to determine where their allegiances lay?
B) If the answer to the above is yes and the Islanders mandate was accurately interpreted and reported, what could the British government reasonably do?
30 years from now, I'd like to think that some sort of peaceful solution will have been agreed, but for now could we just leave it that the Falkland Islanders wish to remain associated with Britain and not Argentina.
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"30 years from now, I'd like to think that some sort of peaceful solution will have been agreed,"
I think the Argies blew ANY chance of that happening in April 1982.
Not from the British Gov't side but from the Falkland Islanders side
who it seems from what I have read will now never give it up.
If the Argies hadn't invaded, who knows, might have been a change
of heart over time but not now.
Just my HO.
I think the Argies blew ANY chance of that happening in April 1982.
Not from the British Gov't side but from the Falkland Islanders side
who it seems from what I have read will now never give it up.
If the Argies hadn't invaded, who knows, might have been a change
of heart over time but not now.
Just my HO.
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A peaceful solution is just possible but there would have to be huge changes in the attitude and stance of Argentina. They are not doing themselves any favours and, as 500N says, if they hadn't invaded then they might have stood a chance. As it is there will probably have to be two generations before that is forgotten about.
And Keesje needs to be reminded that
is mainly coming from the posturings and latino macho of Argentina.
And Keesje needs to be reminded that
senseless war mongering, Rambo talk, double standards, discrimination and selective use of rights, historical perspectives and double morale displayed
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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siseman - 
and I would suggest six to eight generations, Argentina have to sort themselves out economically and I don't see that happening anytime soon!
A possible earlier solution might be achieved if, when oil and mineral finds have reached a substantial level, the UK offer Argentina a treaty that they agree to drop their claim to the the FIs in perpetuity, in return for a decent cut of the revenue, sufficient to help Argentina recover, if it can kill off the corruption first.
and I would suggest six to eight generations, Argentina have to sort themselves out economically and I don't see that happening anytime soon!A possible earlier solution might be achieved if, when oil and mineral finds have reached a substantial level, the UK offer Argentina a treaty that they agree to drop their claim to the the FIs in perpetuity, in return for a decent cut of the revenue, sufficient to help Argentina recover, if it can kill off the corruption first.
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QUOTE
I saw this topic and was amazed by the senseless war mongering, Rambo talk, double standards, discrimination and selective use of rights, historical perspectives and double morale displayed by some of the members.
END QUOTE
But, if you are honest, you will admit chose to counter it with double standards along with selective and bizarre historical perspectives of your own which you simply ignored when they were pointed out. I suspect this is why you attracted some returning fire. And complaining of "Rambo talk" (most of which was humorous hyperbole) on a military forum is akin to going to De Wallen and moaning about the hookers.
QUOTE
colonialism is a forgotten word elsewhere
END QUOTE
I refer the honourable member to the overseas bits of the Kingdom of the Netherlands again, with particular reference to his claims of double standards and hypocrisy.
Dutch Caribbean - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
You may have forgotten the word, me old china, but not the practise.
I saw this topic and was amazed by the senseless war mongering, Rambo talk, double standards, discrimination and selective use of rights, historical perspectives and double morale displayed by some of the members.
END QUOTE
But, if you are honest, you will admit chose to counter it with double standards along with selective and bizarre historical perspectives of your own which you simply ignored when they were pointed out. I suspect this is why you attracted some returning fire. And complaining of "Rambo talk" (most of which was humorous hyperbole) on a military forum is akin to going to De Wallen and moaning about the hookers.
QUOTE
colonialism is a forgotten word elsewhere
END QUOTE
I refer the honourable member to the overseas bits of the Kingdom of the Netherlands again, with particular reference to his claims of double standards and hypocrisy.
Dutch Caribbean - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
You may have forgotten the word, me old china, but not the practise.
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And Keesje needs to be reminded that
Quote:
senseless war mongering, Rambo talk, double standards, discrimination and selective use of rights, historical perspectives and double morale displayed
is mainly coming from the posturings and latino macho of Argentina.
Quote:
senseless war mongering, Rambo talk, double standards, discrimination and selective use of rights, historical perspectives and double morale displayed
is mainly coming from the posturings and latino macho of Argentina.
But that doesn't justify honorable members acting similar..
Trying to divert attention away from the Topic, the Falklands, well, I can understand the attempt. Lets bite
The Antilles, Dutch for a long time were important for slavery from Africa, a black page in our history. Contrary to other blatant colonist nations, we have many.
The Antilles are thousands of miles away from the Netherlands. It's an open society housing about 100 times as many people as the Falklands. Many races, origins, there's a normal immigration policy wrt the countries surrounding it. We haven't made ridiculous claims in the area, while there is a lot of oil. It still benefits the Antilles because they play part in the industry.
Companies from e.g. nearby Venezuela are loacted at them. Venezualla that made some claims on the islands in the past. But they have little to gain, their companies/ nationals already use the islands and are benefitting from this small piece of Europe next door in many different ways ( drugs anybody
) There is hardly any territorial pressure from any side. The reasonable proporous (tourism, oil) population itself doesn't care very much, you don't see any flagwaving, anthems, demonstrations militairy show offs.
Perhaps a direction for the Falklands. Strike a deal with Argetine, to boost trade, tourism, education for the Islanders, giving them better options by connecting to the potentially boosting Argentine economy. Create a big Falklands/ Malvinas / Oceanic Museum with them to start with. A real tourist attraction showing how civilized countries can go wrong, solve together and prosper after. Take an example on how the US dealt with their 1000 x worse Vietnam Trauma 20 yrs later.
So now on a lighter tone, w'll have an exciting Argentine Queen, Maxima, in a few months, that takes Camilla out of business before she's even started. (We got lucky, she's very intelligent, beautifull, sympathic, gave birth to 3 & understands her role.)
Now where's my helmet..