New Falklands War Brewing
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Well, I know folks are trying to drag attention away from the topic on hand, the Argentine claims on the Falklands. I'm neither trying to bash to Brits, just introducing some different perspectives next to the usual patriotic get'm emotions.
I'm sure some further "research", next to sixties movies, (try wiki Battle of the Netherlands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, Dutch resistance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) will show you a more accurate and objective picture of events.
Lots of folks love to identify with historic actions they weren't present with, or even born. Often it is what was/is used by war makers to motivate the men that have to do the job. Defend god given values against evil do'ers. On all sides. Problem is these days the evil do'ers are online, have great kids, play soccer and didn't look so evil / aggresive the last time you spoke to some..
Do a google on Argetine before attacking if you dare, you might find out it's a save, civilized, fun place..
I think looking at history we also have to identify with the bad things our grandfathers did. The stuff we didn't hear during our history classes, for a reason. I'm sure "Research" will come up with events everyone has been trying to ignore / forget for ages. Make them part of your identity too. Slavery, colonialism, instituted discrimination, greed, theft, defeat, arrogance, selective anger, crimes against humanity.. We shouldn't cherry pick history, IMO that's for the simple souls.
I'm sure some further "research", next to sixties movies, (try wiki Battle of the Netherlands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, Dutch resistance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) will show you a more accurate and objective picture of events.
Lots of folks love to identify with historic actions they weren't present with, or even born. Often it is what was/is used by war makers to motivate the men that have to do the job. Defend god given values against evil do'ers. On all sides. Problem is these days the evil do'ers are online, have great kids, play soccer and didn't look so evil / aggresive the last time you spoke to some..
Do a google on Argetine before attacking if you dare, you might find out it's a save, civilized, fun place..
I think looking at history we also have to identify with the bad things our grandfathers did. The stuff we didn't hear during our history classes, for a reason. I'm sure "Research" will come up with events everyone has been trying to ignore / forget for ages. Make them part of your identity too. Slavery, colonialism, instituted discrimination, greed, theft, defeat, arrogance, selective anger, crimes against humanity.. We shouldn't cherry pick history, IMO that's for the simple souls.
Last edited by keesje; 5th Jan 2013 at 11:56.
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The point I'm trying to make to Keejes His Dudeness is that aggression needs to be resisted. And yes, in 1940 the Dutch did have options - resist or surrender, die on your feet or live on your knees. They opted to live on their knees.
The appeal of nazism to Dutch and other folks (there were quite a lot foreigners in the SS, eben Russian and Ukrainian) is evident, when we look at these things we need to remember what information these people had. We look back at these things and say: "they should have...".
And its not like the Dutch said: hey come on Fritz, take our country and we will be your ally and applaud you for it.
Your opinion "they opted to live on your knees" weeps of arrogance. My best guess is that you simply have no idea how it is to live in a small country with neighbours more powerful.
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there were a lot of Hitler admirers in the UK as well - some in the cabinet
I'm sure if we'd been invaded the usual creeps would also have "come round" to see Nazism as the only true way
I'm sure if we'd been invaded the usual creeps would also have "come round" to see Nazism as the only true way
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It seems thud105 and vetflyer have a rather unique, new vision on the war in the Netherlands. While we quickly surrendered the Germans somehow lost 400 aircraft had a para operation being suppressed and so had started bombing RTM city center and where preparing to flatten other cities too.
During the first few years the Germans tried to integrate the Netherlands (supposed to Belong to the right race) but things turned grim after Jewish citizens started to get deported, young men had to join workforces and underground started attacks.
Pretty soon SD torture centers where opened everywhere, dirty wars full of unknown hero's and unknow traittors were close, not on the other side of a sea. Mass executions took place and many people were on the wanted lists and had to hide (my grandfather) to escape arrest, torture concentration camps and execution.
Blokes like thud105 and vetflyer, well, they will always be there..
During the first few years the Germans tried to integrate the Netherlands (supposed to Belong to the right race) but things turned grim after Jewish citizens started to get deported, young men had to join workforces and underground started attacks.
Pretty soon SD torture centers where opened everywhere, dirty wars full of unknown hero's and unknow traittors were close, not on the other side of a sea. Mass executions took place and many people were on the wanted lists and had to hide (my grandfather) to escape arrest, torture concentration camps and execution.
Blokes like thud105 and vetflyer, well, they will always be there..
Sorry Keesje, just woken up. Apologies, I don't get that white-flag waving icon - is it a Dutch thing?
But seriously - and to get things back on track re the FI. You still don't seem to either be willing or able to accept that the people who live in the Falklands don't want to be bossed about by the Argentineans. It is that simple - they have a right to self-determination. Why can't you accept that?
But seriously - and to get things back on track re the FI. You still don't seem to either be willing or able to accept that the people who live in the Falklands don't want to be bossed about by the Argentineans. It is that simple - they have a right to self-determination. Why can't you accept that?
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One wonders how our Dutch friend feels about Venezuela's claims towards the constituent countries of the Netherlands Antilles, described by Chavez's government as "the Dutch Falklands"...... Small islands, large potential oil wealth, claimed through colonial expansion, protectorate of a European nation state, very close in geographic terms to the claiming nation.......
6897km from the The Hague yet proud equal partners in the Kingdom of the Netherlands.
6897km from the The Hague yet proud equal partners in the Kingdom of the Netherlands.
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Hi Keesje
I fought for the place in 82 which was worthwhile then and would be today. Why exactly do you think that members of my family who live on the islands are any less worthy of defence from tyranny than anyone else?
Why should the people of the Falklands expect the Argentinians to treat them any better than they did the indigenous people of Patagonia, what steps is the plastic president taking to decolonise Patagonia?
Deepsixteen
I fought for the place in 82 which was worthwhile then and would be today. Why exactly do you think that members of my family who live on the islands are any less worthy of defence from tyranny than anyone else?
Why should the people of the Falklands expect the Argentinians to treat them any better than they did the indigenous people of Patagonia, what steps is the plastic president taking to decolonise Patagonia?
Deepsixteen
So Keejes, do you have a "different perspective" on "the Dutch Falklands"?
His Dudeness, I never suggested the British should have surrendered. I was just pointing out that as the Luftwaffe outnumbered the RAF at the start of the BoB and that (to use your words) it was "hardly a match" - that by applying your logic the British should have surrendered.
I am very grateful they didn't. If the Nazis had won, the World would be a very dark place.
His Dudeness, I never suggested the British should have surrendered. I was just pointing out that as the Luftwaffe outnumbered the RAF at the start of the BoB and that (to use your words) it was "hardly a match" - that by applying your logic the British should have surrendered.
I am very grateful they didn't. If the Nazis had won, the World would be a very dark place.
This thread has lost its way. It's about the FI not the Dutch. Or, indeed, about about anything to to do with WWII.
I think the posts are becoming unbecoming of PPRuNes.
I think the posts are becoming unbecoming of PPRuNes.
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CM - The purpose of posting comments regarding the Netherlands Antilles is an attempt to provide our Dutch friend with a comparator regarding the Falkand Islands relationship to the UK.
Both the countries that make up the Netherlands Antillies and the Falkland Islands are protectorates of European nation states and both are also claimed by South American countries. I'm purely interested to see if his claim about 'trying to introduce different perspectives' allows introspection of his own nation's colonial acquisitions or whether by introducing a familar comparrison he will understand better the Falkland Islander's and British view of the situation.
Both the countries that make up the Netherlands Antillies and the Falkland Islands are protectorates of European nation states and both are also claimed by South American countries. I'm purely interested to see if his claim about 'trying to introduce different perspectives' allows introspection of his own nation's colonial acquisitions or whether by introducing a familar comparrison he will understand better the Falkland Islander's and British view of the situation.
Last edited by The Helpful Stacker; 5th Jan 2013 at 20:39.
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Indeed
Keesje
Cristina Kirchner, Argentina’s president is using these claims to deflect attention away from her domestic issues and problems with IMF etc
UK is no more colonist than Spain , France or the Netherlands
Argentina's population speak spanish which suggests that is their ethic origin
FI population have chance to vote on their future but Mrs President possibliy does not care what they think.
Keesje
Cristina Kirchner, Argentina’s president is using these claims to deflect attention away from her domestic issues and problems with IMF etc
UK is no more colonist than Spain , France or the Netherlands
Argentina's population speak spanish which suggests that is their ethic origin
FI population have chance to vote on their future but Mrs President possibliy does not care what they think.
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CM, agree.
Dutch Antilles: reply #908
What's this sh.t !?
UK names Argentine Antarctic territory 'Queen Elizabeth land' - BuenosAiresHerald.com
Dutch Antilles: reply #908
What's this sh.t !?
UK names Argentine Antarctic territory 'Queen Elizabeth land' - BuenosAiresHerald.com
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Keesje - So you believe that Falkland Islanders have less rights to live in their homeland than the residents of those countries that make up the Netherlands Antillies based purely on population numbers? Interesting ethical stance.
Out of interest, what would you say is the cut-off regarding population numbers before a people can live in their homeland unmolested by a foreign power's attempts at colonisation?
Out of interest, what would you say is the cut-off regarding population numbers before a people can live in their homeland unmolested by a foreign power's attempts at colonisation?
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Helpful stacker, thats an interesting question. If it were 3 people living on a lonely rock far away, directly or indirectly paid by the dutch government, with extreme immigration laws. Do they have the right to self determination and should we send out a fleet to protect their rights. Yes, No? Why? 50 people? 100? Were they the first to live there? Not?
Does it depend if big Brazil or tiny Peru makes claims? Of course.. No? Does the ROW agree? Ignore? The UN, ignore them (this time only)?
What about rebuilding the villages and farms somewhere in Scotland, same climate, fishing, oil, an RAF base.. Problem is, it just isn't the same. Scotland is a so much better, more interesting, historic and beautifull place to live if you (and your children) feel British. Or is there more? what?
Does it depend if big Brazil or tiny Peru makes claims? Of course.. No? Does the ROW agree? Ignore? The UN, ignore them (this time only)?
What about rebuilding the villages and farms somewhere in Scotland, same climate, fishing, oil, an RAF base.. Problem is, it just isn't the same. Scotland is a so much better, more interesting, historic and beautifull place to live if you (and your children) feel British. Or is there more? what?
Last edited by keesje; 5th Jan 2013 at 22:28.
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......Or is there more? what?.....
Transporting Falkland Islanders to Scotland is no more an option than it is to transport the population of Aruba to Drenthe. The right to self-determination is enshrined by the UN, as too is the concept of living in your homeland unhindered by other nation states.
Falkland Islanders are not colonists. They are, as Arubans are, the lawful occupiers of their homeland.
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The US urges the two countries to negotiate.
The Obama Administration knifes Britain yet again over the Falklands – Telegraph Blogs
Reagan didn't like it either, the latests released docs show.
Reagan's Falklands plea to Thatcher - Channel 4 News
Brazil..
Brazil reiterates support for Argentina, denies any blockade to the Falklands — MercoPress
It seems the rest of the world just doesn't understand..
The Obama Administration knifes Britain yet again over the Falklands – Telegraph Blogs
Reagan didn't like it either, the latests released docs show.
Reagan's Falklands plea to Thatcher - Channel 4 News
Brazil..
Brazil reiterates support for Argentina, denies any blockade to the Falklands — MercoPress
It seems the rest of the world just doesn't understand..
Last edited by keesje; 6th Jan 2013 at 09:33. Reason: spelling..
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I've read the latter part of the debate with interest & did a little research that might add something useful
1. Non-Self Governing Territories (NSGTs)
It appears that in the UN Treaty effective from 24th October 1945, that Articles 73 & 74 of the Charter Chapter XI addresses the international law regarding such territories as the Falkland Islands
Charter of the United Nations: Chapter XI: Declaration regarding Non-Self-Governing Territories
Article 103 states that the UN Treaty prevails over any other agreement
Charter of the United Nations: Chapter XVI: Miscellaneous Provisions
Britain listed its overseas colonies with the UN in 1946, one of which was the Falkland Islands, who were subject to colonial rule and government. It appears the aim of Articles 73/74 of UN Treaty is to free people from colonial rule to allow them to freely chose their own form of government and rule and to be represented by their own population - i.e. by the people, for the people, of the people. That's why the FI are listed
In 1960 the UN General Assembly passed resolution 1514(XV) which urges the Administrating Countries of NSGTs to speed up implementation of Articles 73/74
Resolution 1514
and in 1961 the UN provides for a Decolonization Committee for Administrating Countries to report on progress, with terms of reference given in resolution 1654
Resolution 1654
In 1965 Argentina raises the existence of its sovereignty dispute with Britain and the UN GA invites both countries to negotiate a peaceful solution which bears in mind:
a. The provisions and objectives of the UN Charter (legally binding)
b. Resolution 1514
c. Interests of the population
Resolution 2065
These negotiations are begun and a framework agreed but are famously terminated by Argentina in 1982, because it refused to accept the validity of a, b or c and argued they did not apply to the Islanders
As to the "how many" question, New Zealand via the UN applied Article 73 to the Tokelauns who are a population of c. 1400
Tokelau
1. Non-Self Governing Territories (NSGTs)
It appears that in the UN Treaty effective from 24th October 1945, that Articles 73 & 74 of the Charter Chapter XI addresses the international law regarding such territories as the Falkland Islands
Charter of the United Nations: Chapter XI: Declaration regarding Non-Self-Governing Territories
Article 103 states that the UN Treaty prevails over any other agreement
Charter of the United Nations: Chapter XVI: Miscellaneous Provisions
Britain listed its overseas colonies with the UN in 1946, one of which was the Falkland Islands, who were subject to colonial rule and government. It appears the aim of Articles 73/74 of UN Treaty is to free people from colonial rule to allow them to freely chose their own form of government and rule and to be represented by their own population - i.e. by the people, for the people, of the people. That's why the FI are listed
In 1960 the UN General Assembly passed resolution 1514(XV) which urges the Administrating Countries of NSGTs to speed up implementation of Articles 73/74
Resolution 1514
and in 1961 the UN provides for a Decolonization Committee for Administrating Countries to report on progress, with terms of reference given in resolution 1654
Resolution 1654
In 1965 Argentina raises the existence of its sovereignty dispute with Britain and the UN GA invites both countries to negotiate a peaceful solution which bears in mind:
a. The provisions and objectives of the UN Charter (legally binding)
b. Resolution 1514
c. Interests of the population
Resolution 2065
These negotiations are begun and a framework agreed but are famously terminated by Argentina in 1982, because it refused to accept the validity of a, b or c and argued they did not apply to the Islanders
As to the "how many" question, New Zealand via the UN applied Article 73 to the Tokelauns who are a population of c. 1400
Tokelau
Last edited by Aerodramatics(UK); 7th Jan 2013 at 21:37.
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Hi
The USA and many other countries were against the UK taking action to end slavery as well (glad we do not always listen to them) they were wrong then acting in their own interests and not respecting the rights of others as they are now in not respecting the rights of the islanders to self-determination.
You do seem a little fixated on the Falklander’s what about the Patagonian’s?
Deepsixteen
The USA and many other countries were against the UK taking action to end slavery as well (glad we do not always listen to them) they were wrong then acting in their own interests and not respecting the rights of others as they are now in not respecting the rights of the islanders to self-determination.
You do seem a little fixated on the Falklander’s what about the Patagonian’s?
Deepsixteen
Wonder why the US might sit on the fence. Their own interests? Yes I think that's it.
Clearly through these posts we have arrived that both the Argentinian stance and the UK stance albeit at a much smaller granularity than the world stage. I call on our very own United Nations Council (the PPRUNE Moderators) to make a ruling on this thread to which we should abide.
Clearly through these posts we have arrived that both the Argentinian stance and the UK stance albeit at a much smaller granularity than the world stage. I call on our very own United Nations Council (the PPRUNE Moderators) to make a ruling on this thread to which we should abide.
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We all have to obey to the terms and conditions set by PPRune.
Site Terms
As long as we keep friendly / respectfull and provide some back-up for our opinions they probably won't intervene. Nor will they let themselves be used to end discussions some want to avoid/ supress.
Site Terms
As long as we keep friendly / respectfull and provide some back-up for our opinions they probably won't intervene. Nor will they let themselves be used to end discussions some want to avoid/ supress.