Too Low FlyBy-- USAF T-38s
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Beage's Wrote:
'In 1989, I once porked up a fully authorised fly past limit, albeit not deliberately.'
Mate, that is some story! I myself have been 'maxed out' having to both turn, and speed up. But then me and my course moved on to BFT......
Joking apart, you highlight a good point in my view: In that even the most experienced (and even in a multi cockpit environment) can lose the bigger picture, and forget some of the really basic stuff. I would be interested to know how the de-brief went, with regards to CRM? Fun-bus would have had 4 folks at least up front, so that was a failure of mainly 2 (Pilots), but also Nav and Eng?
Not aiming to fire shots, but the lesson might be that the 'Devil' that is 'Flypasts' can never be regarded as 'Standard' or 'Routine' for the Sqn Pilot/Crew. This should be also understood by Supervisors. Non of us 'NOT Reds', do it often enough to make it routine, and the angry little horns are all too easily let out.
As several posters have commented, good aircrew, often blow it on the most mundane 'FlyBy'.
I personally am certainly not Holier Than Tho, and have had my share of shockers. My earlier points, mostly related to the poor formation the guys flew. (Incidentally, I don't think what they did was at all dangerous, just shoddy.)
Fly Pasts are a task, in my view, which should be carefully planned by both crew and supervisor. By all means, let the youngsters out, and do them, but be sure of 2 things:
1. They Have a plan, and you have seen it!
2. They know that deviation from the plan is NOT an option, and lauditory reports of 50' 500Kts+ will not be defence!!.
3. Oh, and just as a tester, try this: "OK mate, all's going well, on time, on track etc then over crowd center you get...Bird/Fire/Flameout/ insert as req" see what answers you get (?).
It's often said, but mostly ignored: Assumption is the biggest problem.
Keep Safe Guys, Nurse says I have to lie down now.......
Advo
'In 1989, I once porked up a fully authorised fly past limit, albeit not deliberately.'
Mate, that is some story! I myself have been 'maxed out' having to both turn, and speed up. But then me and my course moved on to BFT......
Joking apart, you highlight a good point in my view: In that even the most experienced (and even in a multi cockpit environment) can lose the bigger picture, and forget some of the really basic stuff. I would be interested to know how the de-brief went, with regards to CRM? Fun-bus would have had 4 folks at least up front, so that was a failure of mainly 2 (Pilots), but also Nav and Eng?
Not aiming to fire shots, but the lesson might be that the 'Devil' that is 'Flypasts' can never be regarded as 'Standard' or 'Routine' for the Sqn Pilot/Crew. This should be also understood by Supervisors. Non of us 'NOT Reds', do it often enough to make it routine, and the angry little horns are all too easily let out.
As several posters have commented, good aircrew, often blow it on the most mundane 'FlyBy'.
I personally am certainly not Holier Than Tho, and have had my share of shockers. My earlier points, mostly related to the poor formation the guys flew. (Incidentally, I don't think what they did was at all dangerous, just shoddy.)
Fly Pasts are a task, in my view, which should be carefully planned by both crew and supervisor. By all means, let the youngsters out, and do them, but be sure of 2 things:
1. They Have a plan, and you have seen it!
2. They know that deviation from the plan is NOT an option, and lauditory reports of 50' 500Kts+ will not be defence!!.
3. Oh, and just as a tester, try this: "OK mate, all's going well, on time, on track etc then over crowd center you get...Bird/Fire/Flameout/ insert as req" see what answers you get (?).
It's often said, but mostly ignored: Assumption is the biggest problem.
Keep Safe Guys, Nurse says I have to lie down now.......
Advo
RAFC Cranwell, December 1986. Hats of the graduation parade (being worn with chinstraps) scattered onto the ground by the blast from two F4s in reheat trying to clear CHOM roof. Also, the AOC's saluting dais being lifted a few feet at the front probably didn't do much for the crew who were met with hats on their recovery to base...
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Oh for goodness sake
A 4 ship, not too tidy but ok, have a bit of a preplanned whizz a bit lower than was authorised. Straight and level at what was still a gentleman's height was no big deal, and the spectators seemed to enjoy it.
A 4 ship, not too tidy but ok, have a bit of a preplanned whizz a bit lower than was authorised. Straight and level at what was still a gentleman's height was no big deal, and the spectators seemed to enjoy it.
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Mal,
A True 'Gentleman Aviator' involved in that, was still flying many years later. And on a positive note, it provided the best bit of video to brighten up a rather grim Flying Supervisors Course! As I have said, mistakes can be made by anyone, but Fly Pasts seem historically, to be a bit of a catalyst.
Advo
A True 'Gentleman Aviator' involved in that, was still flying many years later. And on a positive note, it provided the best bit of video to brighten up a rather grim Flying Supervisors Course! As I have said, mistakes can be made by anyone, but Fly Pasts seem historically, to be a bit of a catalyst.
Advo
Aviator Extraordinaire
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And sometimes you just get lucky.
Why does some Spam always have to add something such as:
It just so de trop
Thanks for that story JB, and most of all thank you for your service to our country...
Avoid imitations
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A True 'Gentleman Aviator' involved in that, was still flying many years later. And on a positive note, it provided the best bit of video to brighten up a rather grim Flying Supervisors Course! As I have said, mistakes can be made by anyone, but Fly Pasts seem historically, to be a bit of a catalyst.
Why does some Spam always have to add something such as:
Quote:
Thanks for that story JB, and most of all thank you for your service to our country...
It just so de trop .
Quote:
Thanks for that story JB, and most of all thank you for your service to our country...
It just so de trop
.
No thanks required for my service, and I certainly won't be standing and applauding guys in uniform at airports. I respect them, yes, but as Beagle says, overt expressions of this kind are just de trop.
"rays of sunshine"?
.....no Con, it's because we're Brits and we tend not to do this "in your face, hearts on sleeves stuff".
And, dare I say it, we (the posters you're referring to and I) are of an older generation who remember a time when footballers and cricketers didn't indulge in a quasi sexual celebration when they scored a point, a pat on the back and let's get on with the game.
This does NOT mean that we do not hold our currently serving military in the highest regard. We do; we're just less overtly demonstrative about it.
The Ancient Mariner
And, dare I say it, we (the posters you're referring to and I) are of an older generation who remember a time when footballers and cricketers didn't indulge in a quasi sexual celebration when they scored a point, a pat on the back and let's get on with the game.
This does NOT mean that we do not hold our currently serving military in the highest regard. We do; we're just less overtly demonstrative about it.
The Ancient Mariner
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Height?
Unfortunately for the chaps in question and their lawyers, the videographer's position near the center of the field allows a good estimate of the height: about 98m x (speed / 300 m/s) x (time in sight / 4s) above the camera.
From the standard pitch size, the goal posts are 28.5 feet tall, and 180 feet away. Assuming the videographer is 5 feet tall, that puts the tops of the posts 7.4 degrees up from horizontal. The top of the stadium is about 25% higher in angle meaning the nose of the first aircraft becomes visible when it reaches 9.3 degrees above the horizon. From the geometry, this means that the plane is in sight for about 12.2 times its height above the camera. The plane is in sight for about 4s, which assuming a speed of 300 m/s (probably high) makes the height about 98 meters.
This scales linearly with both the assumed speed and time in sight, and depends a little bit on the exact position of camera, and height of the lip of the stadium, and the height of the pitch compared with local ground level.
From the standard pitch size, the goal posts are 28.5 feet tall, and 180 feet away. Assuming the videographer is 5 feet tall, that puts the tops of the posts 7.4 degrees up from horizontal. The top of the stadium is about 25% higher in angle meaning the nose of the first aircraft becomes visible when it reaches 9.3 degrees above the horizon. From the geometry, this means that the plane is in sight for about 12.2 times its height above the camera. The plane is in sight for about 4s, which assuming a speed of 300 m/s (probably high) makes the height about 98 meters.
This scales linearly with both the assumed speed and time in sight, and depends a little bit on the exact position of camera, and height of the lip of the stadium, and the height of the pitch compared with local ground level.
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
If there were a little more public pride and jingoism around the exploits and achievements of the Military, the UK might not be looking at quite the massacre of capability and manpower that it currently faces. This lack of acknowledgement and pride reaches and affects every voter and every politician. At least here in the US you aren't allowed to forget the sacrifice and contribution of the Military, and that will be a factor when the Government tries to cut it back. By all means if you're too embarrassed to publicly thank those that have made that sacrifice, why not just have that warm feeling inside, but remember that also like when pi$$ing yourself in black trousers, you're the only one that will ever notice.
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I have not seen any comments on the geography of the Iowa City area.
I really think they were much higher than they appear.
I attended the University of Iowa from 1960 - 1968, spent most of my work & school time at the University of Iowa Hospitals the next complex east of the stadium. The hospital and stadium sit up on an east west ridge line 300 ~ 400 feet above surrounding area that drops off to the north and south. at the base of the south drop off is the local airport. Approach to runway 18 is directly over the stadium / hospital complex. In the 60's the Gothic ~ 12 story tower of the hospital was what we used to line up a straight in on 18 as on approach you could not see the runway until you were south of the hospital tower. The drop off to the south to 18 was so steep that you were always about 300 feet above ground on the last mile and a half of approach.
36 takeoff were equally interesting, why is it that the engines always cough & sputter when you are trying to get over that large immovable object in front of you?
Many happy hours of flying time from IC in my log book and a few minutes of sheer terror
L
I really think they were much higher than they appear.
I attended the University of Iowa from 1960 - 1968, spent most of my work & school time at the University of Iowa Hospitals the next complex east of the stadium. The hospital and stadium sit up on an east west ridge line 300 ~ 400 feet above surrounding area that drops off to the north and south. at the base of the south drop off is the local airport. Approach to runway 18 is directly over the stadium / hospital complex. In the 60's the Gothic ~ 12 story tower of the hospital was what we used to line up a straight in on 18 as on approach you could not see the runway until you were south of the hospital tower. The drop off to the south to 18 was so steep that you were always about 300 feet above ground on the last mile and a half of approach.
36 takeoff were equally interesting, why is it that the engines always cough & sputter when you are trying to get over that large immovable object in front of you?
Many happy hours of flying time from IC in my log book and a few minutes of sheer terror
L
By all means if you're too embarrassed to publicly thank those that have made that sacrifice,
(H'mm, must remember that black trousers tip
)
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Impromptu formations
Sunday 11 Oct 1964 and an ROC Day (remember Royal Observer Corps?) was held at Chivenor attended by various aircraft including many from training units. Flypast and aero displays and a good time was had by all. Chivenor was 229 OCU in those days.
12 Oct, and after met briefing departing pilots met in 2 Sqn crewroom for coffee and debrief on previous evenings shenanigans. Somebody said "lets have a formation flypast/departure" so a quick brief on positions to adopt and off we all went. The photo in my logbooks shows Phil Holden-Rushworth leading in a Spitfire followed by a Canberra (nav/rad trainer version with long pointy nose), Vampire T11 and Jet Provost on the Canberra's wings, myself in Meteor F8 with Gnat and Hunter F6 either side. Having done Chivenor Barnstaple was the next overfly and then somebody suggested we go to CFS at Little Rissington. Mike Hobson, OC Flying at Chivenor got of the phone to Rissy telling them to expect visitors so we did our thing there and then separated though several of us, myself included, landed at Rissy to refuel.
Don't suppose RAF could put together seven different types in one formation now and if they did would need an Air Marshall to authorise it!
12 Oct, and after met briefing departing pilots met in 2 Sqn crewroom for coffee and debrief on previous evenings shenanigans. Somebody said "lets have a formation flypast/departure" so a quick brief on positions to adopt and off we all went. The photo in my logbooks shows Phil Holden-Rushworth leading in a Spitfire followed by a Canberra (nav/rad trainer version with long pointy nose), Vampire T11 and Jet Provost on the Canberra's wings, myself in Meteor F8 with Gnat and Hunter F6 either side. Having done Chivenor Barnstaple was the next overfly and then somebody suggested we go to CFS at Little Rissington. Mike Hobson, OC Flying at Chivenor got of the phone to Rissy telling them to expect visitors so we did our thing there and then separated though several of us, myself included, landed at Rissy to refuel.
Don't suppose RAF could put together seven different types in one formation now and if they did would need an Air Marshall to authorise it!
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Flt Lead Loses His Wings
An Air Force pilot who led a group of jets on a spectacular flyover before a University of Iowa football game has been punished for flying too low and too fast, and is giving up his right to fly military aircraft, the U.S.Air Force said Wednesday...
{The USAF} Major was the flight leader when four Talon T-38 Trainer jets performed the flyover in front of 70,000 fans before Iowa hosted Ohio State at Kinnick Stadium on Nov. 20. The jets were at an altitude 16 feet above the press box, the stadium’s highest point, and cleared the scoreboard by just 58 feet, an Air Force investigation found.
Air Force: Pilot loses wings after low flyover - Air Force News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Air Force Times
http://www.airforcetimes.com/xml/new...lyover_800.JPG
{The USAF} Major was the flight leader when four Talon T-38 Trainer jets performed the flyover in front of 70,000 fans before Iowa hosted Ohio State at Kinnick Stadium on Nov. 20. The jets were at an altitude 16 feet above the press box, the stadium’s highest point, and cleared the scoreboard by just 58 feet, an Air Force investigation found.
Air Force: Pilot loses wings after low flyover - Air Force News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Air Force Times
http://www.airforcetimes.com/xml/new...lyover_800.JPG