25%+ cut in allowances!
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Well, if the deskie was going to do the decent thing,
Flying related posts would be a maximum of 2 years. once this time is up, I suppose all those on Spec Aircrew pay band instead of receipt of flying pay are going to have to do the desk jobs...
Kind of defeats the object of Spec Aircrew/Professional Aviator really doesnt it?
Also completely screws the idea that we get people in desk jobs for longer. Why will anyone want to go and do the aerosystems course for example, if they are going to take a pay cut for the priveledge of a 30% pay cut to cover a procurement job?
I know if I get a cut in flying pay, with the missus potentially dropping a sprog and on single income, I am going to be in serious financial difficulty pretty quickly...
Flying related posts would be a maximum of 2 years. once this time is up, I suppose all those on Spec Aircrew pay band instead of receipt of flying pay are going to have to do the desk jobs...
Kind of defeats the object of Spec Aircrew/Professional Aviator really doesnt it?
Also completely screws the idea that we get people in desk jobs for longer. Why will anyone want to go and do the aerosystems course for example, if they are going to take a pay cut for the priveledge of a 30% pay cut to cover a procurement job?I know if I get a cut in flying pay, with the missus potentially dropping a sprog and on single income, I am going to be in serious financial difficulty pretty quickly...
It is a retention incentive after all and if the Service are not retaining you then why should it be paid?
Sqn Ldr doctor on PVR could serve out PVR on regular sqn ldr pay?
Wg Cdr lawyer could serve out PVR on regular wg cdr pay?
Flt Lt priest could serve out PVR on regular flt lt pay?
PAS AEO could serve out PVR on regular flt lt pay?
Chf Tech AGE could serve out PVR without crew pay?
Pay freeze and no increments for any service personnel on PVR?
Pay freeze and no SP for any service personnel exercising an option?
It's only 3 years since Manning were fighting the reduction in FP on PVR as it had the unintended consequence of squeezing more people out at option points. With a declining head-count the long term strategy is to 'soften' option points to help 'profile' exits.
Leaving the Service is not a crime but the financial punishment is portraying it as one. A friend of mine has just finished serving out a PVR even though he will fall short of earning his wg cdr pension and has taken a major hit to his pay. He would love to continue his career but the unexpected death of his wife leaves him as a single parent and he now views his status as incompatible with Service life. Whilst single parent families do exist in the RAF it still seems harsh to stop his FP and hit his pension & gratuity.
Setting aside the redundancy rounds for a moment (as these are long-term regulation changes) we will have a continuing Service need to pull personnel through option points. The 'leave at an option and we will give you full pay as you serve out your time plus full pension & gratuity' vs the option of 'serve a little longer and when you do go we will extract £15k+ of pay and reduce pension & gratuity' seems a poor 'reward' for serving longer. Our current sticking-plaster is to offer an FRI - giving with one hand to offset the stupidity of the other limb.
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Just this Once:
To be controversial then, what percentage of those applying for aircrew employment would withdraw their application if FP were withdrawn in toto?
How many 'future pilots' would waive or sign-up to a 50% cut in FP if it meant the difference between gaining a training place and not?
It's perhaps a different issue for those already in receipt, but I doubt there would be a significant drop-off in applications for places (from outside the Service at least) were one of these lines taken.
STH
QR's state that the purpose is to 'attract & retain'
How many 'future pilots' would waive or sign-up to a 50% cut in FP if it meant the difference between gaining a training place and not?
It's perhaps a different issue for those already in receipt, but I doubt there would be a significant drop-off in applications for places (from outside the Service at least) were one of these lines taken.
STH
Last edited by SirToppamHat; 21st Jan 2011 at 09:05.
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I agree with STH re: newcomers. The market is bulging with abs who just want to fly (albeit because quite a lot already have rich parents), which is why the likes of Ryanair can get away with charging them for everything from interview to uniform.
Getting them in through the door wouldn't be the problem; it'd be keeping them past their 'wonder years' point as they get pi$$ed off with the superfluous stuff and compare conditions with their mate at BA. However the counter argument is the promotion ladder would keep pay on the rise for the few, with a steady stream of youth in/out on the shop floor. Depends on who's 'vision'
is en vogue right now as to the future model AF they want. But don't doubt there are thousands of kids on the streets with a PPL or better who aren't too arsed about FP, pensions and other dull stuff.
Getting them in through the door wouldn't be the problem; it'd be keeping them past their 'wonder years' point as they get pi$$ed off with the superfluous stuff and compare conditions with their mate at BA. However the counter argument is the promotion ladder would keep pay on the rise for the few, with a steady stream of youth in/out on the shop floor. Depends on who's 'vision'
is en vogue right now as to the future model AF they want. But don't doubt there are thousands of kids on the streets with a PPL or better who aren't too arsed about FP, pensions and other dull stuff.
Gentleman Aviator
JTO...
... FP has no effect on pension or gratuity, which are all related to basic pay (stand fast PA). Or did I misunderstand....
it still seems harsh to stop his FP and hit his pension & gratuity
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Problem is, the way they have worked the system, if you get promoted, it entails a pay CUT!
Why would you stick round at PJHQ for a long tour if you are going to take a 20% cut in your total pay to stick around? Anyone contempating a "push" yesterday in work pretty much were of the attitude F@ck it, lets get the groundschool going.
This is pretty poorly thought out in terms of retention, I know they are trying to get rid of people in the near future, but once the wind changes on the civil market, you can bet your bottom dollar there is going to be a major rush for the exits. Lots of peeps I know are not constraining themselves to the UK, and with the middle east/far east markets starting to grow, a slow trickle of expertise is going to become a tidal wave pretty damned quickly...
Why would you stick round at PJHQ for a long tour if you are going to take a 20% cut in your total pay to stick around? Anyone contempating a "push" yesterday in work pretty much were of the attitude F@ck it, lets get the groundschool going.
This is pretty poorly thought out in terms of retention, I know they are trying to get rid of people in the near future, but once the wind changes on the civil market, you can bet your bottom dollar there is going to be a major rush for the exits. Lots of peeps I know are not constraining themselves to the UK, and with the middle east/far east markets starting to grow, a slow trickle of expertise is going to become a tidal wave pretty damned quickly...
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T&G,
I fear the issue of what constitutes a Flying-Related post could be the devil in the detail.
For me, it follows that any post requiring aircrew experience is Flying Related. An Ops job is Flying related but can also be filled by the Ops Spt branch, as can most others when it comes down to it, so you could argue that they don't get Fg Pay so why should a Fly(P)? Does anyone know how this is defined?
I fear the issue of what constitutes a Flying-Related post could be the devil in the detail.
For me, it follows that any post requiring aircrew experience is Flying Related. An Ops job is Flying related but can also be filled by the Ops Spt branch, as can most others when it comes down to it, so you could argue that they don't get Fg Pay so why should a Fly(P)? Does anyone know how this is defined?
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T+G, how are they going to achieve a 10 million saving if 95% of the jobs out there are safe for flying pay? It doesnt make sense. I have a sense of foreboding that actually, we are shafted and that all the rumours that they were going to make it as unpleasant as possible are true.
I notice there was not mention of cuts to Star rank chefs and drivers as part of the allowances review? How about first class travel for them?
For a paltry 10 million saving (whats that, 2X pilot training to LCR status?) , they are going to force a huge change in attitude in the workplace. For all the effort the boys have gone to over the past 13 years, just as we thought there was light at the end of the tunnel, they are going to potentially put us in a tight financial spot, completely unacceptable.
I think they are about to see loyalty is a 2 way street in a big way. If they touch our pensions, I dare say there will be carnage.
I notice there was not mention of cuts to Star rank chefs and drivers as part of the allowances review? How about first class travel for them?
For a paltry 10 million saving (whats that, 2X pilot training to LCR status?) , they are going to force a huge change in attitude in the workplace. For all the effort the boys have gone to over the past 13 years, just as we thought there was light at the end of the tunnel, they are going to potentially put us in a tight financial spot, completely unacceptable.
I think they are about to see loyalty is a 2 way street in a big way. If they touch our pensions, I dare say there will be carnage.
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Just This Once:
PAS is NOT SP, it is a totally separate pay range, so a Flt Lt AEO on the PAS receives no SP and therefore the cut would not affect him/her at all.
PAS AEO could serve out PVR on regular flt lt pay?
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VR, Although no longer serving, it is my understanding and I stand by to be shot down, that PAS is complete remuneration package and once you have done 5 years (I think) on that spine then nothing can be taken away from it. Your pension, gratuity and any redundancy packages are based on this full salary, there is no Flying Pay element to reduce or take off, the only way to reduce this package is to revert you to your original T&Cs which is basic salary + FP.
Awaiting incoming
Awaiting incoming
rs not thru' the 5 yr window? What might happen to them I wonder..........Join Date: Jul 2007
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Effectively, by ensuring PA dont get any financial penalty through a desk posting, surely what they have created is a scheme whereby Professional Aviators get to sign on... To sit behind a desk
And lets be realistic about this, if you have some young shag flt lt at the end of his first tour, wife is pregnant and about to go on a single salary, with a mortgage to pay, what is the deskie going to do once the Flt lt first tourist explains to their flight commander they cant cope financially?
Yep, you have guessed it, find a suitable PA!
And lets be realistic about this, if you have some young shag flt lt at the end of his first tour, wife is pregnant and about to go on a single salary, with a mortgage to pay, what is the deskie going to do once the Flt lt first tourist explains to their flight commander they cant cope financially?
Yep, you have guessed it, find a suitable PA!
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posting PA to a ground tour...
...and the Professional Aviator with his (f)ATPL in his back pocket and 4000 hours experience, will walk.
With a wry grin and taking no pvr pay cut as they go.
With a wry grin and taking no pvr pay cut as they go.
Walking towards the exit...
I, for one, after 26 years service across the world, dragging my dutiful wife and family with me, having done a variety of intrinsically interesting jobs outside of the RAF (indeed outside the UK MOD), picked up 1/2 dozen campaign medals (at the expense of my career), faced down guys with guns...I have had enough. I'm reasonably senior and have worked long hours in Main Building (twice) and see the 'big picture' but there is only so much I should be financially penalised for because of others' failings - whether it be the previous political administration financial management or the wanton greed of the financial services sector.
I then see grip-and-grin photos of 'desert dodgers' from my Branch promoted over me because they pursued cynical career choices that gave face time, but added little to the UK Defence output. The last few rounds the non-operational honours list filled me with a degree of disdain for some on those lists who have never worn DPMs in anger. Although non-aircrew, I enjoyed the collegiate environment in town which allowed me to discuss and espouse the virtues and future of air power amongst brevet colleagues as their equal; changes to SP will ensure that only aircrew will ever fill 'flying related' posts, distanciating much of the supporting personnel from air crew, and thus doing little to champion air power outside the brevet elite.
Where I currently serve is chuffingly expensive as an expat and I now learn that my LOA is going to be cut again, I am under a 2 year pay freeze (notwithstanding increments) and now I have to contribute a further substantial amount to see my son who has no option than to attend boarding school in England (the closest English language school is in another country!). I have to travel, often for weeks at a time, and I am forced to wash my uniform in the hotel bath and hang it out to dry. GBP 10 a day was an insult to cover 'incidentals' when travelling; GBP5 was derisory and now I have to fund doing UK business out of our own pocket -along with any 'representational duties' that I undertake, with the practical withdrawal of REA. Additionally we are in a ****ty hiring which no way compares with what I would be entitled to on a station - yet I pay the same amount as if I was at, say High Wycombe.
I will await the signal on 1 Mar to see whether I fall into one of the redundancy fields and act accordingly. Possibly my post here will be cut as part of the Cochrane review? Who knows? Whether I volunteer for redundancy or PVR (in old money) it will be a very, very sad day for me. I have been proud to serve in the Royal Air Force, and have done so for my adult working life. Often I put that service ahead of my family. No more; I feel let down, indeed betrayed. The whole Service has. It is not the fault of the 'Airships' (a term not used in town!); responsibility falls at the feet of a political metropolitan elite (of all politcal persuasions) that see Defence as quaintly anachronistic and a vestige of old-fashioned values that are cringingly out of tune with modern Britain.
I then see grip-and-grin photos of 'desert dodgers' from my Branch promoted over me because they pursued cynical career choices that gave face time, but added little to the UK Defence output. The last few rounds the non-operational honours list filled me with a degree of disdain for some on those lists who have never worn DPMs in anger. Although non-aircrew, I enjoyed the collegiate environment in town which allowed me to discuss and espouse the virtues and future of air power amongst brevet colleagues as their equal; changes to SP will ensure that only aircrew will ever fill 'flying related' posts, distanciating much of the supporting personnel from air crew, and thus doing little to champion air power outside the brevet elite.
Where I currently serve is chuffingly expensive as an expat and I now learn that my LOA is going to be cut again, I am under a 2 year pay freeze (notwithstanding increments) and now I have to contribute a further substantial amount to see my son who has no option than to attend boarding school in England (the closest English language school is in another country!). I have to travel, often for weeks at a time, and I am forced to wash my uniform in the hotel bath and hang it out to dry. GBP 10 a day was an insult to cover 'incidentals' when travelling; GBP5 was derisory and now I have to fund doing UK business out of our own pocket -along with any 'representational duties' that I undertake, with the practical withdrawal of REA. Additionally we are in a ****ty hiring which no way compares with what I would be entitled to on a station - yet I pay the same amount as if I was at, say High Wycombe.
I will await the signal on 1 Mar to see whether I fall into one of the redundancy fields and act accordingly. Possibly my post here will be cut as part of the Cochrane review? Who knows? Whether I volunteer for redundancy or PVR (in old money) it will be a very, very sad day for me. I have been proud to serve in the Royal Air Force, and have done so for my adult working life. Often I put that service ahead of my family. No more; I feel let down, indeed betrayed. The whole Service has. It is not the fault of the 'Airships' (a term not used in town!); responsibility falls at the feet of a political metropolitan elite (of all politcal persuasions) that see Defence as quaintly anachronistic and a vestige of old-fashioned values that are cringingly out of tune with modern Britain.
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I would wager that there are many harbouring the same views as the last poster who wrote a well and reasoned post. There is a big difference between this and the 'I am in Cyprus and I have had my LOA cut - 
' gang.
I think this country is not going to be happy when it gets the forces that the politicians deserve.
G
' gang. I think this country is not going to be happy when it gets the forces that the politicians deserve.
G
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In this world of equal opportunities it seems unfair to me that a person might be expected to take upto a 25% paycut for being selected to undertake a ground tour (due to service needs), whereas a similarly qualified individual in a flying related tour continues to receive the full whack.
Would be interesting if that individual on the ground tour was then offered PA approaching his exit point only to transfer across several levels lower than he would if being paid SP. Scant reward I'm sure.
Just more push factors to the civvy world, I'm sure you all agree.
Would be interesting if that individual on the ground tour was then offered PA approaching his exit point only to transfer across several levels lower than he would if being paid SP. Scant reward I'm sure.
Just more push factors to the civvy world, I'm sure you all agree.
Don't leave! This is what they want! It's manning reductions by stealth - ie make it bad, then make it worse and then hope they leave of their own accord! Then we don't pay redundancy for them!
All this cr@p about equivalent civilian commuting of 9 Miles is expected yada yah! What a complete load of tosh - we are supposedly compensated for the fact that we are forced to move home and family every 18months to 2 years. Civvies get to stay put for as long as they have a job. The 10% cut in home to duty etc would be palatable had we not already had a cut of 25% last year -so a cut of 35% within 12 months.
Then, I try to move into the mess only to find there are no rooms, so they move me into SSSA. I then duly move out and all of a sudden my £12.47 a day for food and incidentals is removed totally and I'm now expected to eat in the mess due to my room being within 3 miles of camp? If they try and put me onto the ration roll as well (ie pay food from wage packet) the effect is a £600 cut per month!! Investors in People my arse!!
One of the mitigating factors for people that have 'career plateaued' is to ensure that the fringe benefits are sufficient to suitably motivate personnel. The fact that may will have an enforced promotion and wage increase ban along with a cut in those fringe benefits (for doing my bloody job!) is, in my opinion, indefensible!
The previous comment about us all paying for the stupidity of previous governments and risk taking and greed on the part of banks etc rings very true. Yet these people continue to gamble away OUR money as if nothing has changed. Disgrace.
The sad fact is that they have broken the Western capitalism model and I for one will be staying in the RAF to wring them dry of every benefit possible - safe in the knowledge that we will be on the streets within a year controlling mass riots and a break down in civil order caused by the impending entire collapse of the financial system. Don't quite discount another deeper recession caused by Fed and BoE meddling - we are doomed. Really...
All this cr@p about equivalent civilian commuting of 9 Miles is expected yada yah! What a complete load of tosh - we are supposedly compensated for the fact that we are forced to move home and family every 18months to 2 years. Civvies get to stay put for as long as they have a job. The 10% cut in home to duty etc would be palatable had we not already had a cut of 25% last year -so a cut of 35% within 12 months.
Then, I try to move into the mess only to find there are no rooms, so they move me into SSSA. I then duly move out and all of a sudden my £12.47 a day for food and incidentals is removed totally and I'm now expected to eat in the mess due to my room being within 3 miles of camp? If they try and put me onto the ration roll as well (ie pay food from wage packet) the effect is a £600 cut per month!! Investors in People my arse!!
One of the mitigating factors for people that have 'career plateaued' is to ensure that the fringe benefits are sufficient to suitably motivate personnel. The fact that may will have an enforced promotion and wage increase ban along with a cut in those fringe benefits (for doing my bloody job!) is, in my opinion, indefensible!
The previous comment about us all paying for the stupidity of previous governments and risk taking and greed on the part of banks etc rings very true. Yet these people continue to gamble away OUR money as if nothing has changed. Disgrace.
The sad fact is that they have broken the Western capitalism model and I for one will be staying in the RAF to wring them dry of every benefit possible - safe in the knowledge that we will be on the streets within a year controlling mass riots and a break down in civil order caused by the impending entire collapse of the financial system. Don't quite discount another deeper recession caused by Fed and BoE meddling - we are doomed. Really...