Decision to axe Harrier is "bonkers".
Draken,
I see more clearly where you're coming from, unfortunately trying to lump everything on to one airframe seems to be an increasing desire of politicians. It seems they simply will not wear the idea of different aircraft for different roles no matter how adept. The big problem is still trying to convince one and all of the continued, and I'd say, increasing demand for a flexible air defence provision. Just because Fighters aren't intercepting Bears and Badgers with quite the same regularity as they did 25 years ago, seems to produce a culture in the media, public and politicians, who need their votes, to question the need. Therefore the ill advised path of trying to get the Tiffy to learn how to make tea, among other things, on top of its primary duties. All so Boy George doesn't try to chop the final number delivered, down to 70! Which is what the air staff are doubtless, desparatley trying to avoid. Also, the GR4 will go sooner or later, that's inevitable. Not right without a replacement aircraft more suited, but there you go!
FB
I see more clearly where you're coming from, unfortunately trying to lump everything on to one airframe seems to be an increasing desire of politicians. It seems they simply will not wear the idea of different aircraft for different roles no matter how adept. The big problem is still trying to convince one and all of the continued, and I'd say, increasing demand for a flexible air defence provision. Just because Fighters aren't intercepting Bears and Badgers with quite the same regularity as they did 25 years ago, seems to produce a culture in the media, public and politicians, who need their votes, to question the need. Therefore the ill advised path of trying to get the Tiffy to learn how to make tea, among other things, on top of its primary duties. All so Boy George doesn't try to chop the final number delivered, down to 70! Which is what the air staff are doubtless, desparatley trying to avoid. Also, the GR4 will go sooner or later, that's inevitable. Not right without a replacement aircraft more suited, but there you go!
FB
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FB
It's not just the politicians! BAe and the RAF sold the former the swing role Typhoon to justify the numbers being bought which were in excess of the AD need after the Cold War ended.
Over Libya the WW2 Typhoon would now probably suffice.
It's not just the politicians! BAe and the RAF sold the former the swing role Typhoon to justify the numbers being bought which were in excess of the AD need after the Cold War ended.
Over Libya the WW2 Typhoon would now probably suffice.
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unfortunately trying to lump everything on to one airframe seems to be an increasing desire of politicians
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I recall that the Harrier in the Baltics had to have the Jags to designate and it had been in service for years in its primary role. That was never considered a stunt. Capability matures in line with the percieved priorities.
Draken55 wrote,
Is that a true account of events? It is just Sharkey reading between the lines and spinning the story? Typhoon can self designate. I've noted Litening pods regularly being carried at RAF Coningsby, and not just on practice/test weapons drops.
Photos: Eurofighter EF-2000 Typhoon FGR4 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net
Photos: Eurofighter EF-2000 Typhoon FGR4 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net
Photos: Eurofighter EF-2000 Typhoon FGR4 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net
Photos: Eurofighter EF-2000 Typhoon FGR4 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net
The buddy-buddy designation (Typhoon) was also exhibited in the US during the work up. Note coded aircraft 'DH' carrying Paveway with no Litening pod fitted? The other aircraft is carrying the pod.
http://www.xisquadron.co.uk/News/AFM...ngsofSwing.pdf
TJ
a Tornado was needed to designate the target
Photos: Eurofighter EF-2000 Typhoon FGR4 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net
Photos: Eurofighter EF-2000 Typhoon FGR4 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net
Photos: Eurofighter EF-2000 Typhoon FGR4 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net
Photos: Eurofighter EF-2000 Typhoon FGR4 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net
The buddy-buddy designation (Typhoon) was also exhibited in the US during the work up. Note coded aircraft 'DH' carrying Paveway with no Litening pod fitted? The other aircraft is carrying the pod.
http://www.xisquadron.co.uk/News/AFM...ngsofSwing.pdf
TJ
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To re-iterate for the ill-informed/un-initiated oh, and dear Sharkey:-
Typhoon has replaced Tornado F3 and Jaguar.
Primary role is Air Defence with secondary Air to Ground capability, currently PW2 and Litening 3 capable, along with a working 27mm cannon.
Paveway 4, Brimstone (dual and single mode),E/PW 3, and Storm Shadow are in development for future upgrades.
Harrier was trialled for Brimstone carriage but never fired it (contrary to some media reports that it was fired in AFG, it was a Tornado).
Harrier can carry one Storm Shadow but is un-balanced and requires a 540lb on the other pylon.
Tornado GR4 is due to be replaced by JSF/Lightning originally 2025, but now sooner.
GR4 currently is the only aircraft capable of the Deep Strike mission. Typhoon is scheduled to acheive this in 2018. Problem is the Flight Control System software has to be modified to each particular munition, as Typhoon is a computer-controlled unstable aircraft. This is safety-critical software and takes time to test and approve.
Sharkey Ward is silly.
Typhoon has replaced Tornado F3 and Jaguar.
Primary role is Air Defence with secondary Air to Ground capability, currently PW2 and Litening 3 capable, along with a working 27mm cannon.
Paveway 4, Brimstone (dual and single mode),E/PW 3, and Storm Shadow are in development for future upgrades.
Harrier was trialled for Brimstone carriage but never fired it (contrary to some media reports that it was fired in AFG, it was a Tornado).
Harrier can carry one Storm Shadow but is un-balanced and requires a 540lb on the other pylon.
Tornado GR4 is due to be replaced by JSF/Lightning originally 2025, but now sooner.
GR4 currently is the only aircraft capable of the Deep Strike mission. Typhoon is scheduled to acheive this in 2018. Problem is the Flight Control System software has to be modified to each particular munition, as Typhoon is a computer-controlled unstable aircraft. This is safety-critical software and takes time to test and approve.
Sharkey Ward is silly.
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Gaz
So is this story wrong? Did the Typhoon self designate? If not can you suggest why not if it has the capacity to do so?
Libya: RAF Typhoon fighters carry out first ever attack - Telegraph
So is this story wrong? Did the Typhoon self designate? If not can you suggest why not if it has the capacity to do so?
Libya: RAF Typhoon fighters carry out first ever attack - Telegraph
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...do we really need a £ 70 Million aircraft to attack tanks over Libya?
Why is there always someone who tries to spoil the party by shouting that the Emperor's wearing no clothes?
Sure, a motivated man on the ground with an RPG 29 (unit cost around $1500) could do the job quite easily. But a $100M dollar aircraft and weapons system is so much cooler, isn't it? And you can watch it on TV!
Why is there always someone who tries to spoil the party by shouting that the Emperor's wearing no clothes?
Sure, a motivated man on the ground with an RPG 29 (unit cost around $1500) could do the job quite easily. But a $100M dollar aircraft and weapons system is so much cooler, isn't it? And you can watch it on TV!
Hanoijane,
Perhaps because the man with the RPG is taking a hell of a chance. Won't the rebels, in this case, need to get within range first of all? I think it is because they can't do that with the RPGs they've got, that Tornados, Rafales, Typhoons and F16s et al, are involved in the first place. Furthermore, I think we're seeing the modern fast jets here at the mere surface of there capabilities. If you will, like asking Gordon "phuque it" Ramsey to make you a Bacon Roll!
FB
Perhaps because the man with the RPG is taking a hell of a chance. Won't the rebels, in this case, need to get within range first of all? I think it is because they can't do that with the RPGs they've got, that Tornados, Rafales, Typhoons and F16s et al, are involved in the first place. Furthermore, I think we're seeing the modern fast jets here at the mere surface of there capabilities. If you will, like asking Gordon "phuque it" Ramsey to make you a Bacon Roll!
FB
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Harrier was trialled for Brimstone carriage but never fired it
Harrier can carry one Storm Shadow but is un-balanced and requires a 540lb on the other pylon.
Originally Posted by RileyDove
Its also worth bearing in mind that the Harrier is reliable ! The Tornado and its 1970's electronics isnt inspiring from a servicability point of view.
Gaz ED - thanks for spelling out some facts which so many seem to conveniently forget when it suits their argument.
switch_on_lofty - the only reason the Gioia boys need to get home is they're the next ones in Afghanistan and have to commence their work-up in the not too distant. Please don't generalise.
Here we go then, let's play top trumps with capabilities:
Tornado GR4
Armament: Storm Shadow, Brimstone, ALARM, AIM-9 Sidewinder, Paveway II, Paveway III, Paveway IV, Enhanced Paveway, General Purpose Bombs, Mauser 27mm
Tac Recce: RAPTOR & LITENING III
Harrier GR7/9
Armament: CRV-7, AIM-9 Sidewinder, Maverick, Paveway II, Paveway III, Paveway IV, Enhanced Paveway, General Purpose Bombs
Tac Recce: DJRP & Sniper
...and the result? Tornado GR4 wins with superior RAPTOR, Storm Shadow, ALARM and Mauser (all the rest are "evens" between the two). The only advantage for GR7/9 would be CRV-7 (did they ever field flechette?) - VSTOL is "evens" with Tornado's Mach 1.2 to Mach 1.4 capability. Also GR4's night low-level IMC capability is pretty unique.
So when the Airships and Admirals played "top trumps" for SDSR, I suspect the right platform won.
LJ
Tornado GR4
Armament: Storm Shadow, Brimstone, ALARM, AIM-9 Sidewinder, Paveway II, Paveway III, Paveway IV, Enhanced Paveway, General Purpose Bombs, Mauser 27mm
Tac Recce: RAPTOR & LITENING III
Harrier GR7/9
Armament: CRV-7, AIM-9 Sidewinder, Maverick, Paveway II, Paveway III, Paveway IV, Enhanced Paveway, General Purpose Bombs
Tac Recce: DJRP & Sniper
...and the result? Tornado GR4 wins with superior RAPTOR, Storm Shadow, ALARM and Mauser (all the rest are "evens" between the two). The only advantage for GR7/9 would be CRV-7 (did they ever field flechette?) - VSTOL is "evens" with Tornado's Mach 1.2 to Mach 1.4 capability. Also GR4's night low-level IMC capability is pretty unique.
So when the Airships and Admirals played "top trumps" for SDSR, I suspect the right platform won.
LJ
But Leon, and just to show I am not one-sided in this GR9/GR4 discussion as some may think, you forgot to mention the Harrier short field / carrier capability.
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And that trumps everything else. Apparantly. (with fingers crossed!)
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And that trumps everything else. Apparantly.
(with fingers crossed!)
Oh yes I did..."VSTOL" = "short field/carrier capability"
The Tornado can use quite a small MOS anyway with thrust reverse and using AAR (ie. Not getting airborne with full gas and going to the Texaco). 4-5000ft of concrete is quite manageable (with increased risk).
Nice "dig" though
The Tornado can use quite a small MOS anyway with thrust reverse and using AAR (ie. Not getting airborne with full gas and going to the Texaco). 4-5000ft of concrete is quite manageable (with increased risk).
Nice "dig" though
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LJ
Really? Oh do give me the figures please.
Lets say a 4000ft runway. Temp + 30. Zero wind. Need the weapons fit as i assume you are off on a war scenerio?
Looking forward to this - i assume you are landing on this runway too? May i quote this to Staneval at Marham too? Please?
Really? Oh do give me the figures please.
Lets say a 4000ft runway. Temp + 30. Zero wind. Need the weapons fit as i assume you are off on a war scenerio?
Looking forward to this - i assume you are landing on this runway too? May i quote this to Staneval at Marham too? Please?
Lj101
My experience of Tornado is, the now museum piece, Tornado F3. However, I do remember watching (Fred Grundy IIRC) getting airborne with winders and skyslugs at about 1200kgs (rule of thumb 100kgs for winders and 200kgs for slugs) and about 1/2 fuel. He certainly used less than 4,000ft to get off and with his pre-armed thrust reverse landing (PATRL) with brakes pre- applied (which Tornado was designed for) he used less than 2,000ft in the landing roll.
The secondary at RAF Leuchars is about 4800ft and we would plan to use that during the Cold War - a PHAG in the middle and overuns helps de-risk significantly!
So my claims don't sound too outrageous in my previous post to me...
LJ
My experience of Tornado is, the now museum piece, Tornado F3. However, I do remember watching (Fred Grundy IIRC) getting airborne with winders and skyslugs at about 1200kgs (rule of thumb 100kgs for winders and 200kgs for slugs) and about 1/2 fuel. He certainly used less than 4,000ft to get off and with his pre-armed thrust reverse landing (PATRL) with brakes pre- applied (which Tornado was designed for) he used less than 2,000ft in the landing roll.
The secondary at RAF Leuchars is about 4800ft and we would plan to use that during the Cold War - a PHAG in the middle and overuns helps de-risk significantly!
So my claims don't sound too outrageous in my previous post to me...
LJ