SDSR - Redundancy Package?
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Jaba - thanks for the link. It is pretty clear cut.
The size of the Redundancy payment is the issue for me now - as it is for all of us I guess in a similar situation to mine i.e. oldie, passed IPP & on the PAS at a high level.
Of course they could need the experience and accept the higher wage bills....
I still think that staying in to age 55 is still the best financial decision though IF you still have a big mortgage AND are overpaying in these low interest times.
Despite my asking for clarification on this issue, I will not volunteer for redundancy because I still want to be a part of the military - stupid I know - and the primary reason behind not trying to go civvy as a "self-improver"..
The size of the Redundancy payment is the issue for me now - as it is for all of us I guess in a similar situation to mine i.e. oldie, passed IPP & on the PAS at a high level.
Of course they could need the experience and accept the higher wage bills....
I still think that staying in to age 55 is still the best financial decision though IF you still have a big mortgage AND are overpaying in these low interest times.
Despite my asking for clarification on this issue, I will not volunteer for redundancy because I still want to be a part of the military - stupid I know - and the primary reason behind not trying to go civvy as a "self-improver"..
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Excellent link, thanks very much, cleared up much confusion. Couldn't help but notice in the fine detail that sickies will not be offered reduncancy if they can be medically discharged.
GM
GM
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Just been reading through the Offer To Transfer booklet issued when they had us make the decision between AFPS 75 & 05 as, on page 29, concerning EDP it presents the problem:
If I transfer to AFPS 05 my length of engagement / commission is less than 18 years. Is anything being done about this?
It answers:
Yes. All three services have agreed that those who transfer to AFPS 05 will be able to extend in service so as to reach the EDP 18/40 point.
I joined in 2004 on a 12 year engagment so, if I'm looking at redundancy, my expected leaving date would be 2016. Now, reading the above paragraph, does this mean my expected leaving date would be 2023 as that would be me at age 40 with 19 years service (both EDP criteria met) because I transferred from AFPS 75 to 05 and I have the book which makes the above statement? This would make a huge difference to me if redundancy was an option and to many others too I guess.
Thoughts or opinions please! Cheers, W
If I transfer to AFPS 05 my length of engagement / commission is less than 18 years. Is anything being done about this?
It answers:
Yes. All three services have agreed that those who transfer to AFPS 05 will be able to extend in service so as to reach the EDP 18/40 point.
I joined in 2004 on a 12 year engagment so, if I'm looking at redundancy, my expected leaving date would be 2016. Now, reading the above paragraph, does this mean my expected leaving date would be 2023 as that would be me at age 40 with 19 years service (both EDP criteria met) because I transferred from AFPS 75 to 05 and I have the book which makes the above statement? This would make a huge difference to me if redundancy was an option and to many others too I guess.
Thoughts or opinions please! Cheers, W
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whiskers123
Alas I fear not,
You may find that you will lumped into the pot known 'natural wastage'. At present you are on a 12 year contact, a big factor in this drawn-down is not signing people on past there their existing contractual term. The new pension scheme doesn't give a automatic right to full service over and beyond normal ToS as that's what the initial signing on period is for, the AF ability to reduce numbers as required. Also if made redundant, you would expect to leave before 2016 as they've shorten your contract, if you leave in 2016 then you would simply leave the AF as normal.
Hope that helps although I appreciate its probably not the answer you were after
Alas I fear not,
You may find that you will lumped into the pot known 'natural wastage'. At present you are on a 12 year contact, a big factor in this drawn-down is not signing people on past there their existing contractual term. The new pension scheme doesn't give a automatic right to full service over and beyond normal ToS as that's what the initial signing on period is for, the AF ability to reduce numbers as required. Also if made redundant, you would expect to leave before 2016 as they've shorten your contract, if you leave in 2016 then you would simply leave the AF as normal.
Hope that helps although I appreciate its probably not the answer you were after
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Hi day1week1 thanks for your reply. I imagined that would be the case but it's worth a punt! It does quite categorically state that those who transferred to AFPS 05 would be able to extend in service so would now be the time to hold them to it? Then see if I was offered redundancy?
Do you see where I'm going here - either they keep me in until 18/40 (very happy) or they make me redundant after having extended my engegement to the 18/40 point (happy).
Do you see where I'm going here - either they keep me in until 18/40 (very happy) or they make me redundant after having extended my engegement to the 18/40 point (happy).
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Confused
Im confused at the moment as dont know where I'll stand!, I am on the old pension scheme and am due to finish my 22 in Jul 2017.
Will I have enough time to transfer to a new A/C and get promoted to be able to get signed on to 55, doubtfull due to training time, so what would the redundancy scheme offer me or would they even look at me for it!
Will I have enough time to transfer to a new A/C and get promoted to be able to get signed on to 55, doubtfull due to training time, so what would the redundancy scheme offer me or would they even look at me for it!
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I'd be very surprised if you could hold them to it as service past 12 years involves being 'boarded' and all that in-tails (ability, OJARS etc). It would be wrong to have a 'pass' when others were effectively in competition with each other.
On a more pos note, your exit date is after 2015. Whenever there's been a mass cull in the past, there has always been a huge shortage afterwards with the service desperate to retain people. Also the the next SDR is in 2015 so it could be all change by then.
My view is that in your position you are probably safe, they won't want to make you redundant as you still 'owe' them 6 years service and it won't cost them much when you leave at 12 years. Just don't expect much job security between now and then.
On a more pos note, your exit date is after 2015. Whenever there's been a mass cull in the past, there has always been a huge shortage afterwards with the service desperate to retain people. Also the the next SDR is in 2015 so it could be all change by then.
My view is that in your position you are probably safe, they won't want to make you redundant as you still 'owe' them 6 years service and it won't cost them much when you leave at 12 years. Just don't expect much job security between now and then.
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Sorry Pottermus, I was replying to W123. If its any consolation Potts, so long as you've done more than 12 years, you get the proportion of your pension FROM THE DAY YOU LEAVE. So the key thing is to hang onto year 12, which potentially means a pension from as young as thirty to the day you die. For a NCA Sgt this could mean aprox £5000 a year, ten years earlier than normal. No doubt someone somewhere is going through JPA looking for people to stiff before they can get to their 12 year point.
As for getting onto a new fleet, I think that ship may have sailed. All other fleets have no-where near as many NCA per crew as the Nimrod. Flying post are going to be few and far between for a while.
As for getting onto a new fleet, I think that ship may have sailed. All other fleets have no-where near as many NCA per crew as the Nimrod. Flying post are going to be few and far between for a while.
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Day 1 I think you are right there are going to be very few flying slots available for NCA, so what are the RAF going to do with them?
I fear that the RAF will make a lot of them redundant especially those older ones.
Perhaps re branching or commisioning in a non flying role might be offered to some but the rest?
I fear that the RAF will make a lot of them redundant especially those older ones.
Perhaps re branching or commisioning in a non flying role might be offered to some but the rest?
What do they do with the aircrew, both NCA and officers, at Kinloss?
There is no aircraft for them to fly, and nothing for them to do. If any are going to be made redundant it won't be for about 18 months at the earliest (6 months for RAF to sort its life out, for Tranche 1, and 12 months notice of compulsary redundancy). Given that the RAF will want to stop operating from Kinloss well within 18 months, and presumably doesn't want all these aircrew sitting around, being paid a considerable amount of money, doing nothing - what is it to do with them?
Could someone be posted, say to Waddington, only to find a month or so later that they have been made redundant?
There is no aircraft for them to fly, and nothing for them to do. If any are going to be made redundant it won't be for about 18 months at the earliest (6 months for RAF to sort its life out, for Tranche 1, and 12 months notice of compulsary redundancy). Given that the RAF will want to stop operating from Kinloss well within 18 months, and presumably doesn't want all these aircrew sitting around, being paid a considerable amount of money, doing nothing - what is it to do with them?
Could someone be posted, say to Waddington, only to find a month or so later that they have been made redundant?
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Whilst I'm glad I'm not at kinloss at the moment as they face the greatest uncertainty, I don't anyone at waddo is that much safer. The drawn down will take years not months, which is more than enough time for postings to come to an end. Also whilst it's harder to shoehorn people into flying roles, ground tours can easily be swapped around to employ the people you want to keep. Regardless of location, I imagine there will be a pecking order of those to go first to the wall. Anyone on 'reserved rights', sat in a non flying job they been doing for years without any intention of returning to flying would be my first choice.
d1-w1,
First of all I am only going through a few thoughts I have had, and my wife has been nagging me about - I don't want to start a "my situation is worse than yours" slanging match with anyone, all of us have our problems I'm sure...
I appreciate that many aircrew are potentially vulnerable - I wasn't ignoring that (and good luck to everyone in the months to come). However, the aircrew at Kinloss are unique in one respect - their airbase is about to disappear from under them, and probably pretty damn quickly.
While people at Waddington (continuing to use that as just an example) may be vulnerable, for either a move or worse case redundancy, at least they will stay at Waddington until their fate is decided. People at Kinloss will (probably) be moved on within the next 6 months (who knows what to, possibily even holding or non jobs) as the RAF element at Kinloss closes - before Manning has fully worked out the plot I suspect, since voluntary redundancies will probably not yet be finalized. They could then find out a few months later that they are moving again, or even made redundant - so they face a double whammy. What is the alternative - send all the aircrew at Kinloss on gardening leave (possibly up to 18 months) while RAF Manning sorts its life out. I can't see that happening - can you?
Throw in moving a wife and children, maybe trying to sell a house in an area where the bottom has just fallen out of the market, etc. If I were given a choice of where I would rather be at the moment, no matter how uncertain my future might be, of either Waddington or Kinloss, it wouldn't be hard to pick....
First of all I am only going through a few thoughts I have had, and my wife has been nagging me about - I don't want to start a "my situation is worse than yours" slanging match with anyone, all of us have our problems I'm sure...
I appreciate that many aircrew are potentially vulnerable - I wasn't ignoring that (and good luck to everyone in the months to come). However, the aircrew at Kinloss are unique in one respect - their airbase is about to disappear from under them, and probably pretty damn quickly.
While people at Waddington (continuing to use that as just an example) may be vulnerable, for either a move or worse case redundancy, at least they will stay at Waddington until their fate is decided. People at Kinloss will (probably) be moved on within the next 6 months (who knows what to, possibily even holding or non jobs) as the RAF element at Kinloss closes - before Manning has fully worked out the plot I suspect, since voluntary redundancies will probably not yet be finalized. They could then find out a few months later that they are moving again, or even made redundant - so they face a double whammy. What is the alternative - send all the aircrew at Kinloss on gardening leave (possibly up to 18 months) while RAF Manning sorts its life out. I can't see that happening - can you?
Throw in moving a wife and children, maybe trying to sell a house in an area where the bottom has just fallen out of the market, etc. If I were given a choice of where I would rather be at the moment, no matter how uncertain my future might be, of either Waddington or Kinloss, it wouldn't be hard to pick....
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If the military encourages personnel to buy a house through LSAP and JSHAO etc, does it also recognise that subsequently clobbering a local housing market (such as Kinloss/Lossie) almost overnight, is also going to disadvantage those people it sought to help?
Genuine question - is there provision in place to compensate for loss of value in such circumstances as redundancy/closure?
Genuine question - is there provision in place to compensate for loss of value in such circumstances as redundancy/closure?
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I don't think it does (but don't quote me) The US do. In the case of a move (PCS) you can "sell" your house to the government who then "sell" it on at a loss. You get to walk away from being upside down on your mortgage, but you also don't own anything.
Simplified but that's the deal in essence.
Simplified but that's the deal in essence.
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For the chop?
So, which trades/ranks are people anticipating taking the brunt of redundancies? PJI's look on shaky ground, as do a lot of PTI's depsite their 'too little, too late' attaching themselves to RAF Regt Sqns. A new tri-service 'police' service would also see a lot of speed trappers relieved of their duties. Or would a RAF wide cull of the Sick, Lame Lazy & draft dodgers be preferred?
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Al R,
The system does not provide a mortgage parachute...nor, in my opinion, should it!
LSAP is there to help purchase somewhere to live for the day when you are no longer in receipt of a salary which includes an element to compensate you for short notice moves and the events of service life.
...or have some of those that have been at the Ice Station or one of the AT bases for the last 10 years, whilst being more concerned with the longevity of their CEA claims, forgotten this?
Station closes - people move on, life goes on. If you don't like it then leave.
G
The system does not provide a mortgage parachute...nor, in my opinion, should it!
LSAP is there to help purchase somewhere to live for the day when you are no longer in receipt of a salary which includes an element to compensate you for short notice moves and the events of service life.
...or have some of those that have been at the Ice Station or one of the AT bases for the last 10 years, whilst being more concerned with the longevity of their CEA claims, forgotten this?
Station closes - people move on, life goes on. If you don't like it then leave.
G
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Gijoe, may be harsh and may be true but fair?
There were insufficient quarters.
Even if you had your own house you could still be posted - in the 70s there was the Kinloss-St Mawgan shuttle. Now you had a case about CEA for those that were posted to ISK but retained their mansion/boarding house in Newquay although I don't know enogh to say they also claimed BSA(CEA).
ISK was a foreign posting for us and no way would we have expected to remain in our own house forever.
I didn't look at LSAP (or whatever it was in the past) as it did not seem to be for us and didn't give much anyway.
Now on house sales at ISK we got lucky as the prices in England were dropping while the prices in Moray were still buoyant. Now with Moray prices presumably suddenly dropping it has to be a buyers market. He who prices his house best wins.
But, and here is the next issue, where do you buy down south if you don't know if you have a future or where you may find employment. It really is a rock and a hard place.
There were insufficient quarters.
Even if you had your own house you could still be posted - in the 70s there was the Kinloss-St Mawgan shuttle. Now you had a case about CEA for those that were posted to ISK but retained their mansion/boarding house in Newquay although I don't know enogh to say they also claimed BSA(CEA).
ISK was a foreign posting for us and no way would we have expected to remain in our own house forever.
I didn't look at LSAP (or whatever it was in the past) as it did not seem to be for us and didn't give much anyway.
Now on house sales at ISK we got lucky as the prices in England were dropping while the prices in Moray were still buoyant. Now with Moray prices presumably suddenly dropping it has to be a buyers market. He who prices his house best wins.
But, and here is the next issue, where do you buy down south if you don't know if you have a future or where you may find employment. It really is a rock and a hard place.
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gijoe,
I wasn't thinking of me. The aim of LSAP is twofold; firstly, 'to assist eligible personnel to enter the housing market'; and secondly, 'to help a need arising from changing personal circumstances during a career'. If the military advances cash, based on helping a serviceman during a career, and if it then decides that it doesn't want that serviceman for economic reasons, and causes hardship, then there might be extenuating grounds for possible write off (such as there are if a serviceman is declared bankrupt).
Service in one place is a two way deal; the RAF is happy and so is the individual so lets not hold it solely against one party. Telling someone they are not needed AND then financially disadvantaging them, based on where they might be discharged from, is unfair. Kinloss/Lossie has a huge impact in such a small and fragile local economy - its not like someone being made redundant from,for example, Northolt, where civvy employment may be just down the road and/or the local housing market is far more resilient.
Redundancy should not be such a blunt instrument, especially when it might impact Sqn Ldr 'A' and her family far more than Sqn Ldr 'B' and his - simply based on their respective locations at the time of being made jobless.
I wasn't thinking of me. The aim of LSAP is twofold; firstly, 'to assist eligible personnel to enter the housing market'; and secondly, 'to help a need arising from changing personal circumstances during a career'. If the military advances cash, based on helping a serviceman during a career, and if it then decides that it doesn't want that serviceman for economic reasons, and causes hardship, then there might be extenuating grounds for possible write off (such as there are if a serviceman is declared bankrupt).
Service in one place is a two way deal; the RAF is happy and so is the individual so lets not hold it solely against one party. Telling someone they are not needed AND then financially disadvantaging them, based on where they might be discharged from, is unfair. Kinloss/Lossie has a huge impact in such a small and fragile local economy - its not like someone being made redundant from,for example, Northolt, where civvy employment may be just down the road and/or the local housing market is far more resilient.
Redundancy should not be such a blunt instrument, especially when it might impact Sqn Ldr 'A' and her family far more than Sqn Ldr 'B' and his - simply based on their respective locations at the time of being made jobless.
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So, which trades/ranks are people anticipating taking the brunt of redundancies? PJI's look on shaky ground, as do a lot of PTI's depsite their 'too little, too late' attaching themselves to RAF Regt Sqns. A new tri-service 'police' service would also see a lot of speed trappers relieved of their duties. Or would a RAF wide cull of the Sick, Lame Lazy & draft dodgers be preferred?
Then a few Gp Capts
Then quite a lot of Wg Cdrs & Sqn Ldrs
FJ Pilots & Navs - particularly those who only fly desks.
90% of nimrod-related aircrew. The other 10% can re-train.
Approx 800 from this lot.
Then...
TG1 will take a bit of a kicking - maybe 500 in total.
MTD, Clerks & Suppliers. Proportional to the number of bases which will close (ie 20 per trade for each base that closes and a few from HQ Air). Other trades also on a proportional, but lesser basis). Civilianise 50% of VIP support posts.
Photogs, PTIs & Stewards - almost dead trades. Get rid of 50%.
Approx 2500 redundancies.