Tactics, how would Vulcan attack USSR ?
exgroundcrew - that sounds like the situation I was talking about in my post 29 above. I can imagine the American guard wasn't joking either. Still haven't heard anyone who knows whether anyone ever did get shot - would be interesting to know.
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I know I'm being a bit of a pedant... but shouldnt "woolly alligator" read "furry alligator" instead? 
Havent heard the term in years, brought a smile to my chops on a wet, dull saturday afternoon...
Havent heard the term in years, brought a smile to my chops on a wet, dull saturday afternoon...
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I have found this to be a very interesting thread inasmuch as I was a Polaris submariner from the late '70's to the mid/late 80's.
As it was the R.N. that took over the U.K's nuclear deterrence from the R.A.F. the V force was occasionally a topic of conversation by us onboard whilst we were on patrol. It generally started along the lines of "Which branch of the forces would you prefer to be in if something kicks off"
Knowing what I knew in those days, and having read every single post on this thread: The idea that a bomber might manage to successfully complete its primary mission and return to base for re deployment, reminded me that they had as much chance of doing that, as we would have of continuing onto our secondary role of hunter killer. Not much!
Knowing these odds, and lets face it most of us did, V force crews would have needed a a stiff spine to carry out these missions, that thankfully were never called upon to carry out.
Best regards to you all
As it was the R.N. that took over the U.K's nuclear deterrence from the R.A.F. the V force was occasionally a topic of conversation by us onboard whilst we were on patrol. It generally started along the lines of "Which branch of the forces would you prefer to be in if something kicks off"
Knowing what I knew in those days, and having read every single post on this thread: The idea that a bomber might manage to successfully complete its primary mission and return to base for re deployment, reminded me that they had as much chance of doing that, as we would have of continuing onto our secondary role of hunter killer. Not much!
Knowing these odds, and lets face it most of us did, V force crews would have needed a a stiff spine to carry out these missions, that thankfully were never called upon to carry out.
Best regards to you all
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Swiss Air Defence
Pontius:-
I think that Swiss had an interest in the Rapier but don't know whether they followed it up.
Also we once had a fly-off after a dispersal exercise which took us all well up to the Swedish border before altering heading - when it was all high level - late 50's early 60's. One of the papers, I think the Sunday Times, got hold of the route and castigated the RAF for dangerous provocation of the Russians.
I think that Swiss had an interest in the Rapier but don't know whether they followed it up.
Also we once had a fly-off after a dispersal exercise which took us all well up to the Swedish border before altering heading - when it was all high level - late 50's early 60's. One of the papers, I think the Sunday Times, got hold of the route and castigated the RAF for dangerous provocation of the Russians.
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CND
While at Honington, I had the joy of wasting an entire weekend, when Bruce Kent's "Ban the Bomb" gang decided to pay us a visit. We were briefed that any breaches of the perimeter fence would be met with the infiltrators being frog marched to the Guardroom where they would be formally charged by the local Constabulary for trespass on Government property.
If the infiltrators got through our defense line & got to the "Weapons Area", the United States guards would open fire on them. Just why didn't it click that the Americans were guarding our "British independent Nuclear weapons ?
I was part of the cordon guarding the Electronics Block, which was a shame as news filtered down the line that one of the female protesters had started stripping off to attract the attention of several sex starved Airmen, so that her buddies could make a dash for any gaps in the line, but the plan failed.
I also heard that one of the protesters was trying to tease a "woolly alligator" by sticking his finger through the fence at it. The woolly alligator obliged & took the tip of his finger off. The last I heard was that he was suing the RAF.
If the infiltrators got through our defense line & got to the "Weapons Area", the United States guards would open fire on them. Just why didn't it click that the Americans were guarding our "British independent Nuclear weapons ?
I was part of the cordon guarding the Electronics Block, which was a shame as news filtered down the line that one of the female protesters had started stripping off to attract the attention of several sex starved Airmen, so that her buddies could make a dash for any gaps in the line, but the plan failed.
I also heard that one of the protesters was trying to tease a "woolly alligator" by sticking his finger through the fence at it. The woolly alligator obliged & took the tip of his finger off. The last I heard was that he was suing the RAF.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Pontius:-
I think that Swiss had an interest in the Rapier but don't know whether they followed it up.
Also we once had a fly-off after a dispersal exercise which took us all well up to the Swedish border before altering heading - when it was all high level - late 50's early 60's. One of the papers, I think the Sunday Times, got hold of the route and castigated the RAF for dangerous provocation of the Russians.
I think that Swiss had an interest in the Rapier but don't know whether they followed it up.
Also we once had a fly-off after a dispersal exercise which took us all well up to the Swedish border before altering heading - when it was all high level - late 50's early 60's. One of the papers, I think the Sunday Times, got hold of the route and castigated the RAF for dangerous provocation of the Russians.
Agree about the exercises heading for Sweden before turning south over Denmark and then attacking the UK on a broadfront. The last I recall was Exercise Kingpin in 1965 when we were top stack at 510 with others in the 40s below us and the RAFG Canberras in the 30s below that. The offensive force numbered around 300 bombers on a broad front and 21 minutes in depth. At the same time the USAFE had an 'unrelated' exercise with a similar mass raid overlapping ours to the north and as far south as London.
The defence forces numbered, IIRC, 199 fighters including Hunters from CFE and RN Sea Vixen from Yeovilton and a good time was had by all - we saw lots of contrails but nothing at our level.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
late '70's to the mid/late 80's.
Knowing what I knew in those days. . . The idea that a bomber might manage to successfully complete its primary mission and return to base for re deployment,
Knowing these odds, and lets face it most of us did, V force crews would have needed a a stiff spine to carry out these missions,
Knowing what I knew in those days. . . The idea that a bomber might manage to successfully complete its primary mission and return to base for re deployment,
Knowing these odds, and lets face it most of us did, V force crews would have needed a a stiff spine to carry out these missions,
As for stiff spine, it was true but also you just shut your mind to that part of the mission.
In the 50s the number of nukes was so low as to make it quite possible that you could have returned and rearmed. By 1964 there was still some way to go until MAD was accomplished.
Merv was quite right about the expectation of attacking a hole in the ground. Whenever we got a new target sheet the first thing was looked for was the little box "Earlier Missile Strike Yes/No". If "Yes" the we knew our odds were immeasurably better.
The hole in the ground from at earlier attack might have been sufficient to flatten an airfield but not close enough to excavate the runway etc. Our accuracy was potentially better and would have administered the coup de grace.
Some of our targets were arguably of no military value - HQ of a Military District for instance. It would be like attacking HQ Rheindahlen when everything that could move would have been long gone.
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Slight thread deviation
Sometime around '70 or '71, there was a disenchanted Vulcan captain who was caught contacting the Russians and trying to sell ops information. He was jailed for some time, but Strike HQ was in a great flurry for some time afterwards as various operational profiles were greatly amended.
Anybody know what happened to him?
Anybody know what happened to him?
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Didn't see him at the Labour conference so who knows?
Once worked with a Bloodhound battery commander(?) who was very positive about the system. It was his belief that the RAF never managed to successfully intercept Concorde when approaching at Mach 2 in it's cruise. Not my total bollocks, his, so please don't start.
Once worked with a Bloodhound battery commander(?) who was very positive about the system. It was his belief that the RAF never managed to successfully intercept Concorde when approaching at Mach 2 in it's cruise. Not my total bollocks, his, so please don't start.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
My memory (and Google) failed me. He was a Flt Lt S........ and had bought, or was in the process of buying, the house from the Chief Constable of Lincolnshire.
I don't believe he actually passed any secrets to the Russians as it was the Russians who shopped him. I believe they thought it was a sting operation and anyway they knew where we would penetrate and what our targets were so there was really nothing that he knew that they didn't.
Found this though:
SOVIET-MADE maps showing detailed plans of a major military base in the county will be published today.
PS
Asked Mrs PN and she immediately said Alastair and it clicked Alastair Duncan Steadman
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Alastair Duncan Steadman
There is one Alastair Duncan Steadman aged 69 listed in 192.com. Right age, right name.
I don't believe he actually passed any secrets to the Russians as it was the Russians who shopped him. I believe they thought it was a sting operation and anyway they knew where we would penetrate and what our targets were so there was really nothing that he knew that they didn't.
Found this though:
SOVIET-MADE maps showing detailed plans of a major military base in the county will be published today.
PS
Asked Mrs PN and she immediately said Alastair and it clicked Alastair Duncan Steadman
Detecting your browser settings
Alastair Duncan Steadman
There is one Alastair Duncan Steadman aged 69 listed in 192.com. Right age, right name.
Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 5th Oct 2010 at 16:11.
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Alastair Duncan Steadman
attacking a hole in the ground
NS
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North South
Alistair Stedman was an idiot who though he could make a fortune in the property market. When it all fell apart he was willing to betray his country and the aircrew he had been serving with. He was happy to be a V force pilot and take the pay until he c0cked up his wheeler dealing!
He was prepared to betray those who served with him in the worst possible way. If I remember correctly he got an 8 year sentence, similar to that awarded for a murder, I and many others wished that they had thrown away the key!
Alistair Stedman was an idiot who though he could make a fortune in the property market. When it all fell apart he was willing to betray his country and the aircrew he had been serving with. He was happy to be a V force pilot and take the pay until he c0cked up his wheeler dealing!
He was prepared to betray those who served with him in the worst possible way. If I remember correctly he got an 8 year sentence, similar to that awarded for a murder, I and many others wished that they had thrown away the key!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
NorthSouth, you actually touch on the truth of the matter. One had to suspend belief and accept that your mission was a just cause and not the preliminary to a crime against humanity.
Oh, and we had to read the Geneva Convention on a regular basis.
Oh, and we had to read the Geneva Convention on a regular basis.
I was at RAF Valley in 1975 when a visitor turned up. Not that common an event in those days, it has to be said. Some of the others recognised him as having been on their IOT course, but he subsequently went elsewhere.
To become an APM....
"WTF are you doing in this $hithole at this time of year, mate?" was greeted with mumbled excuses about 'visiting the girl friend's parents' or some other unconvincing reason. But a few beers and no-one gave it a second thought...
Not long after, the story broke in the national press.
Roll the clock forward a few years when my pre-Vulcan Buccaneer course had come to its somewhat predictable conclusion and a sqn colleague (who had been involved in the operation) told us the inside story about lifting that worthless POS from Anglesey. The snatch team arrived in a very covert manner, so that no suspicions would be aroused, nabbed the bugger and were off the island in half a heartbeat. The tale was that some journos then turned up at the hotel where the SIB had been staying; the SIB were tipped off about this by the local police and simply vanished into the night...
Whether or not this may all have been a somewhat embroidered tale, I do not care to speculate. But score one for the good guys when Steadman was nicked!
To become an APM....
"WTF are you doing in this $hithole at this time of year, mate?" was greeted with mumbled excuses about 'visiting the girl friend's parents' or some other unconvincing reason. But a few beers and no-one gave it a second thought...
Not long after, the story broke in the national press.
Roll the clock forward a few years when my pre-Vulcan Buccaneer course had come to its somewhat predictable conclusion and a sqn colleague (who had been involved in the operation) told us the inside story about lifting that worthless POS from Anglesey. The snatch team arrived in a very covert manner, so that no suspicions would be aroused, nabbed the bugger and were off the island in half a heartbeat. The tale was that some journos then turned up at the hotel where the SIB had been staying; the SIB were tipped off about this by the local police and simply vanished into the night...
Whether or not this may all have been a somewhat embroidered tale, I do not care to speculate. But score one for the good guys when Steadman was nicked!
Last edited by BEagle; 1st Apr 2011 at 07:30.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Oh PN you really have spoiled my day. Always been a huge Alison Steadman fan, and although I know its nothing to do with her, every time I see her in something now, I'll be reminded that her brother is a traitor. Surprised he only got 8 years - at that time there were some huge sentences handed down for espionage, I can only assume he was so inept he got credit for being an idiot.
Small point, nobody has ever been sentenced to 8 years for murder - it's always life. The fact that many get out on licence after 8 years or thereabouts is a different matter.
Small point, nobody has ever been sentenced to 8 years for murder - it's always life. The fact that many get out on licence after 8 years or thereabouts is a different matter.