Airtanker reservist pilots
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Airtanker reservist pilots
I am wondering what the general feeling is from RAF aircrew towards the Airtanker plan of having a mix of serving military aircrew and civilian reservists alongside.
I was previously (and relatively briefly) the holder of a "proper" commission, but have worked in the airlines for the last decade. While I don't like the principle of the Armed Forces being reliant on contractors and PFIs, and believe that the budget (and its distribution) should allow the three Services to be able to conduct their operations without external civilian support of this nature, it does interest me as I think it could be a far more satisfying job than taking drunk benefits claimants on holiday.
I have no idea what the remuneration packages would be as Airtanker haven't published any indications, but if they want to attract experienced jet airliner pilots, it'll be quite different from what the RAF crews are on, which I suspect would be a major source of friction. I also wonder about the impression that people like me would be encouraging more cuts and mis-spending of the budget, undermining the RAF from within, and that as a reservist on a "plastic" commission (despite having previously held a real one), could be considered as an outsider with nothing useful to contribute.
Does anyone have a view?
I was previously (and relatively briefly) the holder of a "proper" commission, but have worked in the airlines for the last decade. While I don't like the principle of the Armed Forces being reliant on contractors and PFIs, and believe that the budget (and its distribution) should allow the three Services to be able to conduct their operations without external civilian support of this nature, it does interest me as I think it could be a far more satisfying job than taking drunk benefits claimants on holiday.
I have no idea what the remuneration packages would be as Airtanker haven't published any indications, but if they want to attract experienced jet airliner pilots, it'll be quite different from what the RAF crews are on, which I suspect would be a major source of friction. I also wonder about the impression that people like me would be encouraging more cuts and mis-spending of the budget, undermining the RAF from within, and that as a reservist on a "plastic" commission (despite having previously held a real one), could be considered as an outsider with nothing useful to contribute.
Does anyone have a view?
What type of previous military service did you have?
If an 'experienced jet airliner pilot' turned out to be from some bottom-feeding loco airline then, unless he/she held already held an A330 Type Rating, I can't see him/her being greatly welcomed.
For example, most 'proper' airlines won't even look at a CV which includes the word 'Ryanair' - it's the kiss of death....'If you lie down with the Devil, you will wake up in hell'. Perhaps AirTanker are equally prescient? I don't know.
Certainly when this was discussed many years ago, the opinion amongst tanker aircrew at the time was that the simple A-to-B trash-hauling requirements might be no problem for some civvy pilot.
AAR operations, however, would be a totally different matter.
If an 'experienced jet airliner pilot' turned out to be from some bottom-feeding loco airline then, unless he/she held already held an A330 Type Rating, I can't see him/her being greatly welcomed.
For example, most 'proper' airlines won't even look at a CV which includes the word 'Ryanair' - it's the kiss of death....'If you lie down with the Devil, you will wake up in hell'. Perhaps AirTanker are equally prescient? I don't know.
Certainly when this was discussed many years ago, the opinion amongst tanker aircrew at the time was that the simple A-to-B trash-hauling requirements might be no problem for some civvy pilot.
AAR operations, however, would be a totally different matter.
You've asked a question that I too have been pondering for a while!
I'm a former army officer (and UAS pilot), who seriously got the flying bug only after I had passed the maximum age for aircrew in any of the services, so left the regular army for the TA and then qualified as a civ pilot. I'm hoping to join Air Tanker - but like you I wonder whether there is really any possibility for non QSPs like myself. Even if I were able to join, would QSPs just sneer (which most do at civ pilots) or would I just be regarded as an equal (which my army peers regard me, despite my now TA status)? Incidentally, I am not the slightested bit interested in how the pay compares to the airlines - I want to do it for the right reasons.
I guess the only way to find out is by applying - but interested too to canvass views here.
Beags - why would AAR be a problem for a civ pilot? I bow to your superior knowledge - but is it really that difficult to learn?
I'm a former army officer (and UAS pilot), who seriously got the flying bug only after I had passed the maximum age for aircrew in any of the services, so left the regular army for the TA and then qualified as a civ pilot. I'm hoping to join Air Tanker - but like you I wonder whether there is really any possibility for non QSPs like myself. Even if I were able to join, would QSPs just sneer (which most do at civ pilots) or would I just be regarded as an equal (which my army peers regard me, despite my now TA status)? Incidentally, I am not the slightested bit interested in how the pay compares to the airlines - I want to do it for the right reasons.
I guess the only way to find out is by applying - but interested too to canvass views here.
Beags - why would AAR be a problem for a civ pilot? I bow to your superior knowledge - but is it really that difficult to learn?
Basically, because most civil pilots have never been subjected to the rigorous aptitude testing essential for military flying. How would anyone know whether a plain vanilla civvy had the additional levels of capacity required for effective formation management and the frequent in-flight mission re-planning demands essential in the AAR environment?
Many ex-truckies found AAR quite difficult to start with - and they were all experienced military aircrew who had demonstrated the required aptitude before being selected. And at least they knew how to l00kout of the flight deck windows when turning in close formation!
Of course there are many very capable civilian pilots. But someone whose has never been 'selected' and who has just self-funded their right hand seat postion with a LoCo could well be a considerable risk.
In any case, with shrinking RAF force levels, there would probably be plenty of well-qualified QSPs with AAR experience available to fill the 'reservist' slots with ATr.
Many ex-truckies found AAR quite difficult to start with - and they were all experienced military aircrew who had demonstrated the required aptitude before being selected. And at least they knew how to l00kout of the flight deck windows when turning in close formation!
Of course there are many very capable civilian pilots. But someone whose has never been 'selected' and who has just self-funded their right hand seat postion with a LoCo could well be a considerable risk.
In any case, with shrinking RAF force levels, there would probably be plenty of well-qualified QSPs with AAR experience available to fill the 'reservist' slots with ATr.
Why? It's a fact that aptitude testing is rare these days in any airline. Virtually no airline selects using the same criteria as are required for military pilots - that is a well-known fact.
Opinion amongst my very senior ex-airline colleagues is the same. Different horses for different courses.
Opinion amongst my very senior ex-airline colleagues is the same. Different horses for different courses.
Basically, because most civil pilots have never been subjected to the rigorous aptitude testing essential for military flying. How would anyone know whether a plain vanilla civvy had the additional levels of capacity required for effective formation management and the frequent in-flight mission re-planning demands essential in the AAR environment?
Many ex-truckies found AAR quite difficult to start with - and they were all experienced military aircrew who had demonstrated the required aptitude before being selected. And at least they knew how to l00kout of the flight deck windows when turning in close formation!
Of course there are many very capable civilian pilots. But someone whose has never been 'selected' and who has just self-funded their right hand seat postion with a LoCo could well be a considerable risk.
In any case, with shrinking RAF force levels, there would probably be plenty of well-qualified QSPs with AAR experience available to fill the 'reservist' slots with ATr.
Many ex-truckies found AAR quite difficult to start with - and they were all experienced military aircrew who had demonstrated the required aptitude before being selected. And at least they knew how to l00kout of the flight deck windows when turning in close formation!
Of course there are many very capable civilian pilots. But someone whose has never been 'selected' and who has just self-funded their right hand seat postion with a LoCo could well be a considerable risk.
In any case, with shrinking RAF force levels, there would probably be plenty of well-qualified QSPs with AAR experience available to fill the 'reservist' slots with ATr.
Omega don't require ex-mil pilots and they do a fine job. In Australia we have civilian contracted aircraft providing tanker support (no choice), parachute training/display support, aircrew training (Yes, civilian instructors!) and admin transport to areas of operation (and tactical in the past!).
There are civilian pilots out there who are as good or better than the majority of military pilots; who are formation rated, aerobatic rated down to the ground, posess helicopter and fixed wing licences and fly airliners, freighters or air ambulances for a living.
Just put the applicants through aptitude testing and flight screening before posting them to a squadron, simple.
Last edited by Trojan1981; 24th Aug 2010 at 22:29. Reason: Spelling
it does interest me as I think it could be a far more satisfying job than taking drunk benefits claimants on holiday.
previously (and relatively briefly) the holder of a "proper" commission.
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Tanking is not difficult-it is another aviation evolution that one deals with. It is not a master art-otherwise it would be given to guys other than VC10 drivers......
And in fairness to Beags, IMHO he is well qualified to have an infiormed opinion on the subject.
In any case, with shrinking RAF force levels, there would probably be plenty of well-qualified QSPs with AAR experience available to fill the 'reservist' slots with ATr.
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That's like asking the pope what his experience he has in the Catholic church.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Tyro, you are near enough correct. Remember though that is days of yore maks over 90% were practically impossible. A typical superb score might be 80%. It is only in today's grade inflated exam results that we are used to regarding as mediocre anything less than 90%.
The BM university exams are marked out of 100 and traditionally a mark over 80 is never awarded as an undergraduate is never that good.
Once in the training system however an exam pass of 60%, while a pass, actually shows that you didn'y get 40% of the questions correct.
So taking today's youth and telling them that the pass mark is 65% doesn't tell them the truth as they see it.
The BM university exams are marked out of 100 and traditionally a mark over 80 is never awarded as an undergraduate is never that good.
Once in the training system however an exam pass of 60%, while a pass, actually shows that you didn'y get 40% of the questions correct.
So taking today's youth and telling them that the pass mark is 65% doesn't tell them the truth as they see it.
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Trimstab - They might, they would have the full salary for the job and their pension as well. I met a pilot the other day who had retired with a full Grp Capt pension and then did 5 more years as a Flt Lt reservist, on full salary, flying Tonkas. Nice deal if you can get it!
With less emphasis on basic stick and rudder skills these days, the focus is now more on 'spare capacity' than in the days of yore. Sure, basic military pilot aptitude is assessed at OASC, but it is only with progress through the system that an individual's spare capacity can be fairly assessed.
As far as I'm aware, the crew operating concept for the FSTA hasn't yet been finally established. The basic A330 normally spends its life in protected airspace under positive radar control on a flight plan which rarely includes significant changes en-route. The odd 'direct' or minor re-route for sure, but rarely complete mission changes. The routine Airbus workload has been optimised for PF/PNF duties in such controlled circumstances and most pilots can cope with it pretty easily.
But if you now add additional tasks necessary for AAR, particularly if, by virtue of non-optimal flight deck design, those include tasks which would be better allocated to the mission specialist, the need for additional mental capacity and flexibility for the safe management of large formations in unprotected airspace becomes significant.
In particular, it's no longer a question of simply doing what you were told pre-flight. As a wise old Victor person once said "The only thing certain in the AAR game is the time you came to work".
And yes, I have 'written a book'. More than one in fact. But nothing which you could buy in a shop - they were military AAR manuals.
The RAF has a good reputation for the standard of its AAR force. The aim being to offer the most flexible and efficient service possible to receivers, but without fuss or drama. I sincerely hope that such standards will not be eroded in the forthcoming PFI era.
As far as I'm aware, the crew operating concept for the FSTA hasn't yet been finally established. The basic A330 normally spends its life in protected airspace under positive radar control on a flight plan which rarely includes significant changes en-route. The odd 'direct' or minor re-route for sure, but rarely complete mission changes. The routine Airbus workload has been optimised for PF/PNF duties in such controlled circumstances and most pilots can cope with it pretty easily.
But if you now add additional tasks necessary for AAR, particularly if, by virtue of non-optimal flight deck design, those include tasks which would be better allocated to the mission specialist, the need for additional mental capacity and flexibility for the safe management of large formations in unprotected airspace becomes significant.
In particular, it's no longer a question of simply doing what you were told pre-flight. As a wise old Victor person once said "The only thing certain in the AAR game is the time you came to work".
And yes, I have 'written a book'. More than one in fact. But nothing which you could buy in a shop - they were military AAR manuals.
The RAF has a good reputation for the standard of its AAR force. The aim being to offer the most flexible and efficient service possible to receivers, but without fuss or drama. I sincerely hope that such standards will not be eroded in the forthcoming PFI era.
Agreed they would have the right skills and experience - but would RAF aircrew necessarily want to leave the RAF, obtain civilian licences, then effectively rejoin?
The job market in civvie-street is not exactly 'inviting' at the moment, due to the global recession. Some folk may be coming up to the end of their commission engagements, will not have an opportunity to be assimilated past their engagement (think of the savings the MoD are being asked to make), but such people may be attracted to the AAR contract because of their experience ..... and they may be able to get employment as such. Because of their experience, they are likely to be relatively cheap to 'train'/re-employ in the role. With the dearth of other aviation jobs going, I would say they might consider that a fortunate opportunity, don't you think?
Beags, well said! (Was wondering when you would come back in on this thread - SF is obviously ****e-stirring.
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Stepping aside for a moment from the comedy willy-waving.
I have a question which I am sure has been debated before somewhere but I have never seen.
Does the Airbus intend to be able to AAR from others as well as AAR to others, and if so will the Airbus sidestick control system make this tricky?
I have a question which I am sure has been debated before somewhere but I have never seen.
Does the Airbus intend to be able to AAR from others as well as AAR to others, and if so will the Airbus sidestick control system make this tricky?
Mr B - you're probably correct. I'm just wistfully weighing up my own chances of getting into ATr. I guess very low, given likely competition from ex-RAF tanker pilots, and my own experience only on civilian light jets.
It'll be interesting to see how they pitch the Ts and Cs. Although the general civ market is abysmal at the moment, there is ironically a shortage of A330 pilots, and so pay for A330 drivers is as good as it gets. I suspect that they will not need to match those rates though.
Tourist:
No - the option to receive was deleted. I believe the RAAF A330 did keep this option though. Beags will be along to reveal all in far more detail I am sure.
It'll be interesting to see how they pitch the Ts and Cs. Although the general civ market is abysmal at the moment, there is ironically a shortage of A330 pilots, and so pay for A330 drivers is as good as it gets. I suspect that they will not need to match those rates though.
Tourist:
Does the Airbus intend to be able to AAR from others as well as AAR to others, and if so will the Airbus sidestick control system make this tricky?