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F-35 Cancelled, then what ?

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F-35 Cancelled, then what ?

Old 5th Apr 2013, 17:45
  #1681 (permalink)  
 
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In your terms it's no more backward than only carrying the internal weapons on F-35 when you want the LO fit.
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Old 5th Apr 2013, 17:56
  #1682 (permalink)  
 
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In your terms it's no more backward than only carrying the internal weapons on F-35 when you want the LO fit.
The F15SE has the exact same internal weapons capability as the F35B but on the JSF the sensors and kit are already part of the airframe, you don't have to take them off to maintain your day one 'stealth' such as it is and the capabilities that those bits of kit give you. Whereas with the SE's strike capability for day one 'stealth' you have to take all that useful 'stuff' off to maintain 'stealth'.

Last edited by eaglemmoomin; 5th Apr 2013 at 18:06.
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Old 5th Apr 2013, 18:42
  #1683 (permalink)  
 
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There you go again. It all has to be about how much better the F-35 is than anything else. Apart from a converted F-15E, the SE doesn't even exist, so don't worry about it. You don't know what sensors might be inbuilt. Not much is my guess. There is a baseline case though with LANTERN, so wait and see.
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Old 5th Apr 2013, 18:42
  #1684 (permalink)  
 
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Before we get too carried away with the in-built EO/IR and SAR/GMTI capabilities on the F-35 they do come with limitations.

The SAR/GMTI capabilities are relatively short range and have no post-flight exploitation capabilities beyond the generic ability to record what the pilot has selected on his display at the time. It will be fused with everything else and considering it is a tactical sensor it is way beyond anything we have fielded before. As with everything that goes through the fusion engine the first challenge will be the lawyers. Don't forget your rabbit's ears either!

The EOTS limitations are as per the pictures we have all seen - can you see through the facetted windows? Yep, it is only transparent to IR. For all of you who like long range high res TV to spot your bad guys to the RoE level required get used to only having an IR picture to a level slightly below that of the current gen IR pods. Time to brush-up on the thermal dusk/dawn considerations too whilst respecting the limited look-up capabilities when used in sudo-IRST mode. USMC is considering a pod as they are kinda keen on delivering ordinance close to the blokes they share a boat with.

The DAS is amazing, but it uses 6 relatively low res IR pictures stretched over a full sphere. The plus is getting full sphere, but don't expect the latest NVG acuity when delivering your weapons.

The F-35 has an amazing array of technologies crammed into a shortish, space and weight critical package that has LO capabilities to the fore. As a result the pure performance of some systems is compromised, but the idea is that the fusion of these systems and off-board information will make it better than the sum of its parts.

Still got to get all the multination platform-agnostic automated and integrated fusion engine past the 'sovereign kill-chain' lawyers so we can actually go and whack someone with it!
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Old 5th Apr 2013, 19:08
  #1685 (permalink)  
 
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There you go again. It all has to be about how much better the F-35 is than anything else. Apart from a converted F-15E, the SE doesn't even exist, so don't worry about it. You don't know what sensors might be inbuilt. Not much is my guess. There is a baseline case though with LANTERN, so wait and see.
No the SE doesn't exist right now all we have to go on are Boeing briefings about the aircraft and some videos of a demonstrator that Boeing built as a proof of concept 3 years ago. I was hoping not to have to come over all SpazinBad and pull out the bucket o links but fine have it your way, see slide 17

Silent Eagle Media Brief.Doc
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Old 5th Apr 2013, 19:31
  #1686 (permalink)  
 
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Before we get too carried away with the in-built EO/IR and SAR/GMTI capabilities on the F-35 they do come with limitations.

The SAR/GMTI capabilities are relatively short range and have no post-flight exploitation capabilities beyond the generic ability to record what the pilot has selected on his display at the time. It will be fused with everything else and considering it is a tactical sensor it is way beyond anything we have fielded before. As with everything that goes through the fusion engine the first challenge will be the lawyers. Don't forget your rabbit's ears either!

The EOTS limitations are as per the pictures we have all seen - can you see through the facetted windows? Yep, it is only transparent to IR. For all of you who like long range high res TV to spot your bad guys to the RoE level required get used to only having an IR picture to a level slightly below that of the current gen IR pods. Time to brush-up on the thermal dusk/dawn considerations too whilst respecting the limited look-up capabilities when used in sudo-IRST mode. USMC is considering a pod as they are kinda keen on delivering ordinance close to the blokes they share a boat with.

The DAS is amazing, but it uses 6 relatively low res IR pictures stretched over a full sphere. The plus is getting full sphere, but don't expect the latest NVG acuity when delivering your weapons.

The F-35 has an amazing array of technologies crammed into a shortish, space and weight critical package that has LO capabilities to the fore. As a result the pure performance of some systems is compromised, but the idea is that the fusion of these systems and off-board information will make it better than the sum of its parts.

Still got to get all the multination platform-agnostic automated and integrated fusion engine past the 'sovereign kill-chain' lawyers so we can actually go and whack someone with it!
From a generic point of view I'd assumed based on the appetite for imagery data there'd be a way to 'get' the recorded imagery and meta data into an image analyst workstation post mission and then do your post processing there then distribute it to reference libraries and where ever else from thence?

Last edited by eaglemmoomin; 5th Apr 2013 at 19:34.
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Old 5th Apr 2013, 19:31
  #1687 (permalink)  
 
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Mortification is the name of the game

'eaglemmoomin' said: "... I was hoping not to have to come over all SpazinBad and pull out the bucket o links...".

I'm mortified.
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Old 5th Apr 2013, 19:49
  #1688 (permalink)  
 
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From a generic point of view I'd assumed based on the appetite for imagery data there'd be a way to 'get' the recorded imagery and meta data into an image analyst workstation post mission and then do your post processing there then distribute it to reference libraries and where ever else from thence?
Great idea but no. There is no system on-board that records the meta, ephemeral or indeed any type of underlying data. The US are nuts when it comes to locking-down everything with crypto and anti-tamper systems - everything on F-35 sits in a walled garden. The only exception is for trials where a crate is carried in the righthand bay but everything remains locked down and the system does not work normally with the crate sucking point-to-point data from the fibre.

The US have worked very hard and spent lots of money to ensure no nation has the ability to do the stuff that we would really like to do with the jet. On the plus side, should one be left in an unfriendly state the capability is not compromised.
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Old 5th Apr 2013, 20:03
  #1689 (permalink)  
 
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Security is paramount for the F-35, however, already Israel is being allowed a way to add their own gizmos via an interface (I could look it up) that is likely to be shared - if allowable. On the web this NATO bumpf gives a hint to what recording may be possible in the F-35? "MP-HFM-169-02.doc" Search on that doc file name to find it.

F-35 Embedded Training
"ABSTRACT
The purpose of this paper is to provide an overview of Embedded Training (ET) in the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF). This paper will cover early ET concept development, the implementation of ET in JSF, now F-35 Lightning II, the pilot perspective of the ET training syllabus, and future development of F-35 ET. In the JSF concept development phase the training system solution included the deployable training device and added ET training capability built into the aircraft. ET was brought to the forefront with fighter pilots’ heavy involvement in extended periods of aircraft deployment to international theaters of war. During these periods fighter pilots were away from continuation training opportunities. In response, the JSF training system concept integrated the ET Virtual Training Model (VTM) in the synthetic training environments to support “anywhere/anytime” interactive combat training while in-flight.

The objective of F-35 ET is to enhance and maintain fighter pilot proficiency. ET is implemented by functionally partitioning the aircraft integrated core processor (ICP). ET consists of the VTM hosted in the ICP and the P5 Combat Training System (CTS) contained in P5 Internal Subsystem (IS). Both VT and P5 CTS provide brief and debrief capabilities. [Other possibilites here?]

From the pilot perspective, VT is an overlay of constructive simulation on the real world to provide an enhanced training environment to the pilot. VT mission planning data is inserted in the aircraft via the preloaded portable memory device (PMD). A coordinated data link distribution of VT provides synchronization between a four-ship flight of F-35 aircraft. Pilots may train to a coordinated attack against virtual targets with appropriate threat reactions and kill responses that are shared across participants. All participating aircraft follow the same realistic, virtual pre-planned training scenario.

Following the event, the pilot takes the PMD back to off-board mission support for debriefing. The result is combat team training in live flight supplemented and enhanced by a virtual combat environment...."
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Old 5th Apr 2013, 20:03
  #1690 (permalink)  
 
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EM - My point is that you can and will use SAR/GMTI for some attack missions, whether on a JSF or an F-15SE, and that when the weather goes to poo so do your EO systems. Clearly, too, you don't use radar indiscriminately in either case, but in an LPI mode to eliminate target location error.

And while the SE is not flying, most of the bits and pieces are either in service or in full-scale-development for Saudi (since 12/11). Indeed, the first SA just flew:

Fly-By-Wire F-15SA makes first flight

The SE adds the CWBs, new cockpit displays from Elbit (a company with a good rep for on time delivery) and various RAM/RAS features, but a lot of expensive stuff is being done on the Saudi riyal.

JTO - The US have worked very hard and spent lots of money to ensure no nation has the ability to do the stuff that we would really like to do with the jet. Wow...

Last edited by LowObservable; 5th Apr 2013 at 20:11.
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Old 5th Apr 2013, 20:11
  #1691 (permalink)  
 
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Great idea but no. There is no system on-board that records the meta, ephemeral or indeed any type of underlying data. The US are nuts when it comes to locking-down everything with crypto and anti-tamper systems - everything on F-35 sits in a walled garden. The only exception is for trials where a crate is carried in the righthand bay but everything remains locked down and the system does not work normally with the crate sucking point-to-point data from the fibre.

The US have worked very hard and spent lots of money to ensure no nation has the ability to do the stuff that we would really like to do with the jet. On the plus side, should one be left in an unfriendly state the capability is not compromised.
That seems to be a definite missed trick in that case. That is a shame. I would have thought that would be an extremely useful capability to have (not to mention, groan, yet more money to fork over for the workstations and other associated tat) and as a foot in the door for other systems that do similar stuff.
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Old 5th Apr 2013, 20:21
  #1692 (permalink)  
 
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Spaz the PMD sounds interesting as a way of getting stuff off but then again several hours of imagery is a lot of storage space to eat into depending upon the resolution and then where ever that is would need to be hooked into the PMD to copy the data to it. I guess it's probably quite limited in what can access it and vice versa based upon what Just This Once mentioned.

I'd have also thought the virtual mission simulation data probably wouldn't be anywhere near as large so the device might not be big enough anyway for several hours of footage say.
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Old 5th Apr 2013, 20:30
  #1693 (permalink)  
 
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Way Above My Pay Grade

I'll admit to only knowing what is reported in the public realm but here goes. I'll guess the Israelis will want to export their F-35 addons to any other F-35 interested users.

Israel To Buy F-35s With Cockpit Mods 27 Aug 2010 by Alon Ben-David (AvWeek Story originally)

http://list.freeman.org/pipermail/freemanlist2/2010-August/013664.html

"..."The aircraft will be designated F-35I, as there will be unique Israeli features installed in them," a senior Israel air force official tells Aviation Week.

Israel's initial batch will be almost identical to the international JSF offered to other countries, with one difference: The F-35s manufactured for Israel will include several cockpit interfaces to accommodate the air force's command, control, communications, computer and intelligence systems. The F-35 main computer will enable a plug-and-play feature for Israeli equipment...."

____________


Israel, U.S. Agree To $450 Million In F-35 EW Work 06 Aug 2012 By Eshel David, David Fulghum

Source: Aviation Week & Space Technology

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/AW_08_06_2012_p28-482027.xml&p=1

"...In the F-35, all core avionics are integrated and fused; therefore, accessing part of the system requires integration with all associated systems. Having different air forces using different versions of core avionics would render such integration more complex and costly.

The avionic architecture of the F-35 solved this by introducing two separate integration levels. Customers can access the high level, introducing country-specific services, libraries or updates on their own, outside the aircraft software-upgrade cycles. The lower level is proprietary to the U.S. Joint Program Office and accessible only by Lockheed Martin. This level manages flight and mission-critical services, including flight controls, CNI and display, sensor management and self-protection. It also relates to the sensitive low-observable envelope of the F-35, an issue passionately guarded by the U.S.

Replacing core avionics with new systems at such a profound level of integration is unlikely, as it would require extensive testing by all F-35 operators with no obvious gain for the developer. The IAF is moving toward a different approach—the implementation of so-called integrated modular avionics (IMA). The concept has been in development under an Israeli Defense Research and Development Directorate program for several years and is currently being implemented under several pilot programs.

The architecture employs three layers for the integration of new applications—unified hardware, comprising a powerful general-purpose processor (GPP) and large memory bank, and a library of devices and services made available to developers, similar to a software developer kit...."
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Old 5th Apr 2013, 20:48
  #1694 (permalink)  
 
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EM - My point is that you can and will use SAR/GMTI for some attack missions, whether on a JSF or an F-15SE, and that when the weather goes to poo so do your EO systems. Clearly, too, you don't use radar indiscriminately in either case, but in an LPI mode to eliminate target location error.

And while the SE is not flying, most of the bits and pieces are either in service or in full-scale-development for Saudi (since 12/11). Indeed, the first SA just flew:

Fly-By-Wire F-15SA makes first flight

The SE adds the CWBs, new cockpit displays from Elbit (a company with a good rep for on time delivery) and various RAM/RAS features, but a lot of expensive stuff is being done on the Saudi riyal.

JTO - The US have worked very hard and spent lots of money to ensure no nation has the ability to do the stuff that we would really like to do with the jet. Wow...
Thank you for clarifying LO. Personally my feeling is that you have a choice of picking the conditions for missions or any other stealth 'jolly' so the EO/IR sensor being degraded in bad weather is somewhat under control, the question is what percentage of degradation and I imagine that no one would put that information in the public domain.

As for the wall garden approach I can understand it, while I'm suprised a little that the UK and Australia don't benefit from the ITAR 'special relationship' waiver that I'm pretty sure was passed in to law by the USA. Maybe I've mis remembered.

Last edited by eaglemmoomin; 5th Apr 2013 at 20:48.
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Old 5th Apr 2013, 21:26
  #1695 (permalink)  
 
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US ratifies agreements for exporting arms to UK & Oz

For 'eaglemmoomin': US ratifies agreements for exporting arms to Britain and Australia | Atlantic Council 01 Oct 2010

Last edited by SpazSinbad; 5th Apr 2013 at 21:27. Reason: For 'eaglemmoomin'
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Old 5th Apr 2013, 22:57
  #1696 (permalink)  
 
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Cool

To actually answer the original question.

If the F-35 is cancelled, which for financial reasons, is quite possible.

The US will not be so bothered, they have updated versions of F-18.

The UK have the problem. They need the F-35B for their carriers.

Oh dear.
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Old 5th Apr 2013, 23:44
  #1697 (permalink)  
 
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As for the wall garden approach I can understand it, while I'm suprised a little that the UK and Australia don't benefit from the ITAR 'special relationship' waiver that I'm pretty sure was passed in to law by the USA. Maybe I've mis remembered.
eaglem, although UK/AU have people embedded with the core system that stays inhouse, no nation gets the code of the core system and only UK/BAE had a real whinge about that

Israel didn't get anything that isn't available to everyone else, they asked for more, got knocked back and then internal PR said we won

Like Israel as per spaz's last link, customers can plug and play, coms, regional library, mission requirements etc.
Israel nor anyone else gets the same access level to tech stuff that's shared between the us/uk/au and canada that far exceeds anything on a f-35

Last edited by JSFfan; 6th Apr 2013 at 00:07.
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Old 6th Apr 2013, 00:33
  #1698 (permalink)  
 
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Protection - Roll Post

'HaveQuick2' on page 85 of this thread enquired about roll posts ("...does the efflux impinge..."):

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...ml#post7777988

The closest view of the outlet of one that some will get to see one day:

http://www.codeonemagazine.com/image...28237_9911.jpg

The MLG door provides protection for MLG, whilst the roll post door provides protection, to some unknown degree, for any weaponry on any pylons on the other side of it.


Last edited by SpazSinbad; 6th Apr 2013 at 00:35. Reason: quote add
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Old 6th Apr 2013, 01:29
  #1699 (permalink)  
 
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So far the f-35a looks to be similar in package cost to the SH cost , How those that said different must be changing their game plan

LowObservable, Pilot may say..Dam the fog lifted, it's a shame we don't have the option to run the other toys in LO, the SE is only comparable when basic stuff on the f-35 can't be used and how much did it cost again?

I've said it sounds good and let the se export the same as f-35 slip as I don't have links to show it's wrong, but I will point out that Boeing made similar claims for the SH block 2 to Australia back in 2007, even going so far as to call it 5th gen

getting back on the f-35b, I was amused by this persons post and old Sweetman dribble...he has gone quiet lately and leaving it all to wheeler and Co
More shocking Reporting - editorials this time :: F-16.net
"Honestly I'm a little torqued because its frustrating to see an aircraft that was never going to come off probation land without the excitement of throwing large chunks of tarmac around. I feel kind of ripped off, really."

Last edited by JSFfan; 6th Apr 2013 at 07:10.
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Old 6th Apr 2013, 09:26
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Bit like Sheldon, you don't "get" sarcasm, do you.

2/10, must try harder.








[bit like the F35 just to keep it on topic]

Last edited by glad rag; 6th Apr 2013 at 09:27.
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