F-35 Cancelled, then what ?
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Hmmm,
Referring to my last post about being a wee bit cynical - can I read this as at least another 6 month slip - and the funds being stolen from the next upgrade spiral meaning at leat another 6-12 month slip on that - assuming another $B+ funding isn't found to plug the gap?????
Extended F-35 Flight Testing Could Eat Into Follow-On Upgrades
Referring to my last post about being a wee bit cynical - can I read this as at least another 6 month slip - and the funds being stolen from the next upgrade spiral meaning at leat another 6-12 month slip on that - assuming another $B+ funding isn't found to plug the gap?????
Extended F-35 Flight Testing Could Eat Into Follow-On Upgrades
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Twas an F-35B fire in the circuit (in the hole) around Nov 8 this year but fix found:
F-35 ?Not Out Of Control?: Prices Drop 5.5% For F-35A « Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary
AND... the price is right (or whatever your inclination) for LRIP 9 at same source. And the last sentence at source from Generale BoggedDown:
"...fixing a faulty wiring bracket that caused a fire in an F-35B..."
AND... the price is right (or whatever your inclination) for LRIP 9 at same source. And the last sentence at source from Generale BoggedDown:
"...“My strategy is to just tell the truth.”
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 19th Dec 2016 at 23:26. Reason: format
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Did somebody mention ALARP?.......
Pentagon Knew of F-35B Weapons Bay Fire Problem
A Marine Corps F-35B caught fire during a late October flight because of a weapons bay defect that military officials knew about and were already working to fix.
Air Force Lt. Gen. Christopher Bogdan, the F-35 program executive officer, told reporters Monday at the program’s offices in Arlington, Virginia, that the Oct. 27 mishap occurred when a bracket that held electrical wires in the weapons bay came loose, allowing the wires to chafe and come into contact with hydraulic lines, causing the fire........ “The good news is, we knew what it was,” Bogdan said. “When knew about this problem long before that, and all of our airplanes were being retrofitted with a new bracket.”
The F-35B that caught fire had not yet received the replacement bracket, he said, but had been inspected as part of a stopgap regiment designed to prevent mishaps. Prior to the flight, Bogdan said, the bracket had seemed to be holding. “We inspected, it looked fine, and it just didn’t look fine in the air,” he said.
In the wake of the fire, the Marine Corps opted not to ground any aircraft or pause flight operations. Officials did, however, update the inspection regimen to make assessment of the faulty brackets more rigorous, Bogdan said.
Bogdan acknowledged it was a risk to fly the F-35Bs that had not yet received the bracket retrofit, but said it was one of many risks that come with operating the aircraft. “Military airplanes all have risk,” he said. “This plane is like no other and yes, there are acknowledged risks, and that would be one of them. Until we fix that bracket, every airplane of the B-model that doesn’t have that bracket is going to have to be inspected, and hopefully that bracket remains in place when it’s flying.”
It’s not yet clear when the retrofit process will be complete or how many aircraft still need the new equipment.
Pentagon Knew of F-35B Weapons Bay Fire Problem
A Marine Corps F-35B caught fire during a late October flight because of a weapons bay defect that military officials knew about and were already working to fix.
Air Force Lt. Gen. Christopher Bogdan, the F-35 program executive officer, told reporters Monday at the program’s offices in Arlington, Virginia, that the Oct. 27 mishap occurred when a bracket that held electrical wires in the weapons bay came loose, allowing the wires to chafe and come into contact with hydraulic lines, causing the fire........ “The good news is, we knew what it was,” Bogdan said. “When knew about this problem long before that, and all of our airplanes were being retrofitted with a new bracket.”
The F-35B that caught fire had not yet received the replacement bracket, he said, but had been inspected as part of a stopgap regiment designed to prevent mishaps. Prior to the flight, Bogdan said, the bracket had seemed to be holding. “We inspected, it looked fine, and it just didn’t look fine in the air,” he said.
In the wake of the fire, the Marine Corps opted not to ground any aircraft or pause flight operations. Officials did, however, update the inspection regimen to make assessment of the faulty brackets more rigorous, Bogdan said.
Bogdan acknowledged it was a risk to fly the F-35Bs that had not yet received the bracket retrofit, but said it was one of many risks that come with operating the aircraft. “Military airplanes all have risk,” he said. “This plane is like no other and yes, there are acknowledged risks, and that would be one of them. Until we fix that bracket, every airplane of the B-model that doesn’t have that bracket is going to have to be inspected, and hopefully that bracket remains in place when it’s flying.”
It’s not yet clear when the retrofit process will be complete or how many aircraft still need the new equipment.
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Do the US Services subscribe to the ALARP principle; safety management system etc? (It's ok, I know the answer...)
The UK do, and often apply more stringent operating limits for its people, if they are deemed necessary by the Duty Holder chain.
The UK do, and often apply more stringent operating limits for its people, if they are deemed necessary by the Duty Holder chain.
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GenerallyBoggedDown was busy:
F-35’s $400K Helmet Still Blinds Pilots on Night Flights
http://www.dodbuzz.com/2016/12/20/f-...night-flights/
&
Pentagon Knew of F-35B Weapons Bay Fire Problem
http://defensetech.org/2016/12/20/pe...pons-bay-fire/
F-35’s $400K Helmet Still Blinds Pilots on Night Flights
http://www.dodbuzz.com/2016/12/20/f-...night-flights/
&
Pentagon Knew of F-35B Weapons Bay Fire Problem
http://defensetech.org/2016/12/20/pe...pons-bay-fire/
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 20th Dec 2016 at 18:42. Reason: add 2nd URL
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MSOCS
There is no legal significance to ALARP in the USA; I believe only the UK, Ireland and Australia use the concept in statute. As regards safety, if you look up Mil Std 882 and its history, you'll find they have been using safety engineering and management far longer than the UK. ISTR that 882 came about as a result of the Minuteman missile programme around the early 60s.
EAP
There is no legal significance to ALARP in the USA; I believe only the UK, Ireland and Australia use the concept in statute. As regards safety, if you look up Mil Std 882 and its history, you'll find they have been using safety engineering and management far longer than the UK. ISTR that 882 came about as a result of the Minuteman missile programme around the early 60s.
EAP
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Thanks EAP. I knew ALARP is a relatively new adopted concept in the UK (some years now) but your point on the Minuteman I did not know.
Many people bandy around the term ALARP but perhaps don't appreciate that, whether something either 'is' or 'isn't' ALARP, it is a very personal thing to the one who 'owns' the risk(s) involved. Point being, asking an Internet forum if an issue is ALARP is illogical (unless the Duty Holder is on the forum and is happy to respond in public), but also contradicts the whole point of having an accountable person by asking the masses.
Most visitors here don't have the appropriate safety information to sentence risk...
Many people bandy around the term ALARP but perhaps don't appreciate that, whether something either 'is' or 'isn't' ALARP, it is a very personal thing to the one who 'owns' the risk(s) involved. Point being, asking an Internet forum if an issue is ALARP is illogical (unless the Duty Holder is on the forum and is happy to respond in public), but also contradicts the whole point of having an accountable person by asking the masses.
Most visitors here don't have the appropriate safety information to sentence risk...
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MSOCS,
Whilst the US doesn't subscribe to the exact model of risk ownership that we do, in my experience there is a implicit responsibility to own the associated risk attached to being a senior commander. The US select their senior leaders based on experience and a proven background in their specific area or command.
Thus if you try to explain to a USN senior officer that in the UK we'll have a commander responsible for the operating safety case of fixed wing carrier operations who has never landed on a ship yet alone worked from one, they look at you as if you've come from Mars.
Not trying to start arguments about ownership, but simply using it as an example.
Whilst the US doesn't subscribe to the exact model of risk ownership that we do, in my experience there is a implicit responsibility to own the associated risk attached to being a senior commander. The US select their senior leaders based on experience and a proven background in their specific area or command.
Thus if you try to explain to a USN senior officer that in the UK we'll have a commander responsible for the operating safety case of fixed wing carrier operations who has never landed on a ship yet alone worked from one, they look at you as if you've come from Mars.
Not trying to start arguments about ownership, but simply using it as an example.
Last edited by AutoBit; 21st Dec 2016 at 00:51.
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AutoBit, totally agree. My point was merely to highlight the nuance of ALARP (UK). You make a good point about the US vs UK differences though, and this remains an area where dialogue is vital for both sides to understand how risk is handled and managed. Your point on SQEP is also very valid.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
So, to summarise.
We have a known problem where the result of a failure is a bomb-bay fire. The solution to allow flying to continue, inspections, is not, at the General' own admission, effective; the bracket failing between the pre-flight inspection and the flight.
Prior to the flight, Bogdan said, the bracket had seemed to be holding. “We inspected, it looked fine, and it just didn’t look fine in the air,” he said.
And the solution? More frequent inspections......
In the wake of the fire, the Marine Corps opted not to ground any aircraft or pause flight operations. Officials did, however, update the inspection regimen to make assessment of the faulty brackets more rigorous, Bogdan said.
Was this the result of a vigorous risk assessment that reached a balanced decision?
Until we fix that bracket, every airplane of the B-model that doesn’t have that bracket is going to have to be inspected, and hopefully that bracket remains in place when it’s flying.”
So, who holds this risk for the UK F-35Bs?
We have a known problem where the result of a failure is a bomb-bay fire. The solution to allow flying to continue, inspections, is not, at the General' own admission, effective; the bracket failing between the pre-flight inspection and the flight.
Prior to the flight, Bogdan said, the bracket had seemed to be holding. “We inspected, it looked fine, and it just didn’t look fine in the air,” he said.
And the solution? More frequent inspections......
In the wake of the fire, the Marine Corps opted not to ground any aircraft or pause flight operations. Officials did, however, update the inspection regimen to make assessment of the faulty brackets more rigorous, Bogdan said.
Was this the result of a vigorous risk assessment that reached a balanced decision?
Until we fix that bracket, every airplane of the B-model that doesn’t have that bracket is going to have to be inspected, and hopefully that bracket remains in place when it’s flying.”
So, who holds this risk for the UK F-35Bs?
So, to summarise.
We have a known problem where the result of a failure is a bomb-bay fire. The solution to allow flying to continue, inspections, is not, at the General' own admission, effective; the bracket failing between the pre-flight inspection and the flight.
Prior to the flight, Bogdan said, the bracket had seemed to be holding. “We inspected, it looked fine, and it just didn’t look fine in the air,” he said.
And the solution? More frequent inspections......
In the wake of the fire, the Marine Corps opted not to ground any aircraft or pause flight operations. Officials did, however, update the inspection regimen to make assessment of the faulty brackets more rigorous, Bogdan said.
Was this the result of a vigorous risk assessment that reached a balanced decision?
Until we fix that bracket, every airplane of the B-model that doesn’t have that bracket is going to have to be inspected, and hopefully that bracket remains in place when it’s flying.”
So, who holds this risk for the UK F-35Bs?
We have a known problem where the result of a failure is a bomb-bay fire. The solution to allow flying to continue, inspections, is not, at the General' own admission, effective; the bracket failing between the pre-flight inspection and the flight.
Prior to the flight, Bogdan said, the bracket had seemed to be holding. “We inspected, it looked fine, and it just didn’t look fine in the air,” he said.
And the solution? More frequent inspections......
In the wake of the fire, the Marine Corps opted not to ground any aircraft or pause flight operations. Officials did, however, update the inspection regimen to make assessment of the faulty brackets more rigorous, Bogdan said.
Was this the result of a vigorous risk assessment that reached a balanced decision?
Until we fix that bracket, every airplane of the B-model that doesn’t have that bracket is going to have to be inspected, and hopefully that bracket remains in place when it’s flying.”
So, who holds this risk for the UK F-35Bs?
Do we know the UK aircraft mod state(s)?
N
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The next question of course is why was the bracket designed in this what now appears to be "fail deadly" way? Is the bracket only on the B or is it common across the family and are there similar brackets elsewhere in the airframe?
PhilipG: The next question of course is why was the bracket designed in this what now appears to be "fail deadly" way?....
Geez, designers do not intend brackets or other things to fail...some problems take a while to be known and some are manageable until fixed. No one wants to introduce a known faulty design (except perhaps the designers of Ford Explorer "Exploder" I owned, I am convinced they must have designed faults into that thing to make me buy a new one every few years, or frequent trips to their service department...)
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Geez, designers do not intend brackets or other things to fail...some problems take a while to be known and some are manageable until fixed. No one wants to introduce a known faulty design (except perhaps the designers of Ford Explorer "Exploder" I owned, I am convinced they must have designed faults into that thing to make me buy a new one every few years, or frequent trips to their service department...)
I am sure that it was done in good faith, my point was that this reasonably designed bracket has failed, I am not aware that the exact failure mechanism has been disclosed.
My point was that following the failure of this bracket, are there other brackets designed using the same methodologies on the airframe, that MAY be at danger of failing?
Obviously it would be helpful if this particular bracket was a unique design, so there is no danger of repetition.
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PhilipG, if you're concerned as to whether LM are 'doing their jobs' as the design authority, fear not; they are and more thoroughly than you seem to imply. Indeed, when you're running the world's biggest fighter program as the Design Authority, and when every inch of column news is scrutinised to the nanometre by (literally) everyone, you don't simply just 'sit on your a**' with these things. You also don't go running around like a headless chicken either.
Sure we can talk about this stuff in a sandbox forum, but the only people who are really concerned here are the ones who fix these problems to keep things at a tolerably safe level for those who operate the jet.
Sure we can talk about this stuff in a sandbox forum, but the only people who are really concerned here are the ones who fix these problems to keep things at a tolerably safe level for those who operate the jet.
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My point was that following the failure of this bracket, are there other brackets designed using the same methodologies on the airframe, that MAY be at danger of failing? Obviously it would be helpful if this particular bracket was a unique design, so there is no danger of repetition.
Keep in mind that the failed bracket was in the weapons bay. Also keep in mind that there were some concerns about weapon bay overheating and keeping the doors open to prevent such overheating. It could very well be that the bracket in this specific location experienced higher than anticipated temperatures, higher than anticipated loads, or higher that anticipated cyclic rates, or any combination of the three to cause premature failure. We just don't know. But they know and have already designed a fix and are busily installing it in the fleet. In the meantime they are inspecting the old bracket until it gets replaced with the new one.
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The depends entirely on whether the problem was a design failure, or a failure to understand the loads in the specific environment(s) the bracket was used. An identical bracket could easily last the life of the aircraft in one location, and fail prematurely in another location.