F-35 Cancelled, then what ?
Sorry if this has already been posted. Was reading and found it. Seemed relevant although haven't been here yet today.
A current grounding of the entire Lockheed Martin F-35 fleet has no bearing on the UK’s plans to order the fifth-generation type, according to defence secretary Philip Hammond.
Oh, and I love the fact that they've now decided that the engine is the most likely cause of the engine fire!
A current grounding of the entire Lockheed Martin F-35 fleet has no bearing on the UK’s plans to order the fifth-generation type, according to defence secretary Philip Hammond.
Speaking to reporters after attending a naming ceremony for the new Royal Navy aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth at Rosyth dockyard in Scotland on 4 July, Hammond said the grounding – imposed the previous day – was “unfortunate”. However, he notes: “It’s the kind of thing that happens in aircraft development programmes.”
While Hammond says the Ministry of Defence “would very much like it to be here for Farnborough”, he adds that “we are not going to take any chances with safety”. One of the short take-off and vertical landing F-35Bs which has been scheduled to appear at the show after making a debut appearance at the 11-13 July Royal International Air Tattoo (RIAT) is UK-owned aircraft BK-3.
While Hammond says the Ministry of Defence “would very much like it to be here for Farnborough”, he adds that “we are not going to take any chances with safety”. One of the short take-off and vertical landing F-35Bs which has been scheduled to appear at the show after making a debut appearance at the 11-13 July Royal International Air Tattoo (RIAT) is UK-owned aircraft BK-3.
USS Wasp is just out from a long dry docking overhaul period
“It’s the kind of thing that happens in aircraft development programmes.”
Remember that Davis chap a few years ago? A general of some kind. He was always telling us how his program was different and how simulation and modelling were going to make testing a matter of validation. Anyone recall what project he was in charge of?
Remember that Davis chap a few years ago? A general of some kind. He was always telling us how his program was different and how simulation and modelling were going to make testing a matter of validation. Anyone recall what project he was in charge of?
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Perth Western Australia
Age: 57
Posts: 808
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
S41 - The decision to cancel the F136 was rational. Why, the pro-GE side even raised the spectre of an engine-related fleetwide grounding! No way anything like that would happen.
Any piece of equipment can manifest some kind of systematic fault at any stage of its life, no matter how good the testing regime is. The probability of that gets lower as we understand the engineering and modeling better, but its not perfect.
So yes, one argument is that a staged implementation of a system with any hours dependent issue, can be managed. But there's still a " what the f#$k" amount of dead time when something happens, and when you can decide that parts of the fleet can keep operating.
Whilst in the early stages of deployment, this wlil not be a problem as their are other platforms to take up the slack, this is not the case for countrys that rely on it, or when you have retired your other platforms.
There must be some ballsy strategists and probability experts in some countries. In our case nothing will change, we can just go running back under the yanks skirt if the worst was to happen
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Middle America
Age: 84
Posts: 1,167
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
rh200, The current situation is not unusual unless problems with the engine prove chronic over time.
The program is complex because L-M, DoD and Congress made it complex, it could have been simplified and orderly. L-M sold DoD on a bill of goods to fulfill DoD's dreams and wish lists to assure winning the contract. The technology offered was immature or nonexistent at the time and didn't develop on the proper timetable. So in order to catch up, which is impossible to do, items that should have been accomplished in series are being accomplished in parallel. All it takes is one thing to fail and another work around plan results, more complexity and with higher risks.
Congress (the guardian of money paid by the United State's taxpayers for this program) never acts, only reacts once all the money escapes and more is needed. Half of them, if you yelled F-35, would think it was a callout at a bingo game, yet it is the most expensive DoD program, ever.
If you are in the technology business, be it golf clubs or airplanes, time to market is the technology edge. The longer that time takes, the less the technology advantage until it reaches a point where there is no advantage at all and IMHO, that is where we are headed. 19 years before a fully capable fleet is operational is appalling. Heathrow Harry's time line may be most appropriate the way we are headed.
As far as hanging on a thread, we are not hanging now as we still have excellent operational aircraft, none of which took 19 years to become fully operational. But since the F-35 is a be all, do all aircraft of the future, compromises to accommodate the be all and do all included, will we all be hanging on a thread?
The program is complex because L-M, DoD and Congress made it complex, it could have been simplified and orderly. L-M sold DoD on a bill of goods to fulfill DoD's dreams and wish lists to assure winning the contract. The technology offered was immature or nonexistent at the time and didn't develop on the proper timetable. So in order to catch up, which is impossible to do, items that should have been accomplished in series are being accomplished in parallel. All it takes is one thing to fail and another work around plan results, more complexity and with higher risks.
Congress (the guardian of money paid by the United State's taxpayers for this program) never acts, only reacts once all the money escapes and more is needed. Half of them, if you yelled F-35, would think it was a callout at a bingo game, yet it is the most expensive DoD program, ever.
If you are in the technology business, be it golf clubs or airplanes, time to market is the technology edge. The longer that time takes, the less the technology advantage until it reaches a point where there is no advantage at all and IMHO, that is where we are headed. 19 years before a fully capable fleet is operational is appalling. Heathrow Harry's time line may be most appropriate the way we are headed.
As far as hanging on a thread, we are not hanging now as we still have excellent operational aircraft, none of which took 19 years to become fully operational. But since the F-35 is a be all, do all aircraft of the future, compromises to accommodate the be all and do all included, will we all be hanging on a thread?
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
US Marine F-35Bs Could Make Airshows, Even if UK Jets Do Not
WASHINGTON — The F-35 joint strike fighter fleet remains grounded, even as the deadline to make two major British air shows quickly approaches. The good news for supporters of the JSF: It may be possible for most of the fleet to stay grounded while a few planes attend what has been billed as a major showcase for the program.
Pentagon inspectors continue to review the technical data gathered in the wake of a June 23 fire that claimed an F-35A model at Eglin Air Force Base, Florida. As part of that investigation the entire fleet of F-35 models was grounded last Thursday. However, the Marines may decide they have no concerns about their F-35B jump-jet models and allow the jets to travel overseas, a result of the complicated ownership issues that arise from having nine international partners and three US military services invested in the program.
“There are separate and distinct processes [for each partner], and they all involve different technical reviews,” Kyra Hawn, a spokeswoman for the F-35 joint program office, said. “As part of that, there is the possibility NAVAIR would allow for return to flight before the Air Force or the UK did depending how they analyze and accept that data and manage risk.” In other words, even if the United Kingdom or US Air Force says it is not ready to clear their F-35s, the Marines could still make the trip and fly at the airshows.
In theory, this could provide the easiest solution on how to get the F-35 to its appointments at the Royal International Air Tattoo this weekend or, more likely, next week’s Farnborough International Airshow. Originally, the plan involved flying over a mix of Marine and UK-owned B models to show off to international customers, but if the UK does not clear its models for flight those would be left behind in the US.
Getting UK flight worthiness is likely to take longer than from either of the US services, the result of far stricter rules than in America. In the UK, whoever signs off on air worthiness for an aircraft can be held personally responsible if an incident occurs. While the UK F-35B may not make the trip, the Marines could easily paint their jets with the UK’s colors and present just as much a spectacle while flying...............
WASHINGTON — The F-35 joint strike fighter fleet remains grounded, even as the deadline to make two major British air shows quickly approaches. The good news for supporters of the JSF: It may be possible for most of the fleet to stay grounded while a few planes attend what has been billed as a major showcase for the program.
Pentagon inspectors continue to review the technical data gathered in the wake of a June 23 fire that claimed an F-35A model at Eglin Air Force Base, Florida. As part of that investigation the entire fleet of F-35 models was grounded last Thursday. However, the Marines may decide they have no concerns about their F-35B jump-jet models and allow the jets to travel overseas, a result of the complicated ownership issues that arise from having nine international partners and three US military services invested in the program.
“There are separate and distinct processes [for each partner], and they all involve different technical reviews,” Kyra Hawn, a spokeswoman for the F-35 joint program office, said. “As part of that, there is the possibility NAVAIR would allow for return to flight before the Air Force or the UK did depending how they analyze and accept that data and manage risk.” In other words, even if the United Kingdom or US Air Force says it is not ready to clear their F-35s, the Marines could still make the trip and fly at the airshows.
In theory, this could provide the easiest solution on how to get the F-35 to its appointments at the Royal International Air Tattoo this weekend or, more likely, next week’s Farnborough International Airshow. Originally, the plan involved flying over a mix of Marine and UK-owned B models to show off to international customers, but if the UK does not clear its models for flight those would be left behind in the US.
Getting UK flight worthiness is likely to take longer than from either of the US services, the result of far stricter rules than in America. In the UK, whoever signs off on air worthiness for an aircraft can be held personally responsible if an incident occurs. While the UK F-35B may not make the trip, the Marines could easily paint their jets with the UK’s colors and present just as much a spectacle while flying...............
Are there not laws regarding the use of false markings on military aircraft in international or foreign airspace? In any event I would expect the RAF and MAA to throw a fit over any such subterfuge.
I would also speculate that the whole idea of performing public displays in the UK with an aircraft currently grounded by MAA would raise the odd eyebrow in Whitehall and the legal profession.
Alternatively, this may be an attempt to blame the uptight, panty-waist Brits for a no-show and deflect attention from the fact that the US-made engine done blowed up for reasons (as yet) unknown. I'll go with that one.
I would also speculate that the whole idea of performing public displays in the UK with an aircraft currently grounded by MAA would raise the odd eyebrow in Whitehall and the legal profession.
Alternatively, this may be an attempt to blame the uptight, panty-waist Brits for a no-show and deflect attention from the fact that the US-made engine done blowed up for reasons (as yet) unknown. I'll go with that one.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia - South of where I'd like to be !
Age: 59
Posts: 4,261
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Are there not laws regarding the use of false markings on military aircraft in international or foreign airspace?
Are there not laws regarding the use of false markings on military aircraft in international or foreign airspace?
Last edited by sandiego89; 9th Jul 2014 at 14:03.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: East Sussex UK
Age: 66
Posts: 6,995
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Originally Posted by Forces TV
After todays Air Power Conference the Defence Secretary told journalists he is optimistic the F35 Lightning Two will be cleared to fly in time for the Farnborough Airshow. However, hopes of its debut at this Friday's Royal International Air Tattoo at Fairford are fading fast.
Hopes For F35 to Appear at RIAT 2014 Fading | Forces TV
Apparently there will be a full report on tonight's British Forces News TV
Do a Hover - it avoids G
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Chichester West Sussex UK
Age: 91
Posts: 2,206
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
the faux-RAF F-35B and its formation-mates are intercepted by Typhoons
The trouble with intercepting a hot air balloon when one is in a fast jet is that you don’t have long to make the correct international hand signals when passing by at 2.something miles a minute.
As an interceptor you need to be in a better hot air balloon. But we gave all ours away some time ago.
Originally Posted by Forces TV
After todays Air Power Conference the Defence Secretary told journalists he is optimistic the F35 Lightning Two will be cleared to fly in time for the Farnborough Airshow. However, hopes of its debut at this Friday's Royal International Air Tattoo at Fairford are fading fast.
After todays Air Power Conference the Defence Secretary told journalists he is optimistic the F35 Lightning Two will be cleared to fly in time for the Farnborough Airshow. However, hopes of its debut at this Friday's Royal International Air Tattoo at Fairford are fading fast.
Is that still true if the aircraft is actually operating out of Fairford, as is the plan? Did the F-22 and B-2 have to do validation flights before their appearances?
There have also been occurrences where validation flights have taken place in the evening of the actual show when previous attempts have been deemed unsafe. I can recall an unfortunate F-18 pilot who never managed to pass the validation rules, he had been a late replacement after the season display pilot had been killed in an accident just before the Farnborough week. I think the Russians also struggled one year to get the cobra manoeuvre validated and he was having repeat efforts in the evening as we shuffled back to the hotel.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia OZ
Age: 75
Posts: 2,577
Likes: 0
Received 52 Likes
on
45 Posts
STO - AIR International F-35 Special Edition July 2014
AIR International has a good special edition July 2014 on the F-35. Some info is repeated but also updated. I have not read about the two position STO throttle before - I would be interested in any comments about that aspect please. Thanks. The article is very long whilst only a few STO paras are below:
Jumping Jack Flash July 2014 unknown author AIR International F-35 Special Edition
AIR International F-35 Special Edition July 2014
Jumping Jack Flash July 2014 unknown author AIR International F-35 Special Edition
“...STO-ing...
...There are three ways to conduct a short take off (STO) in the F-35B: stick STO, button STO – and auto STO. “That’s a completely automated way to STO the aircraft off the flight deck. You punch in a distance and the aircraft will auto rotate to its optimal fly-out condition. It’s all based on distance: we know where the aircraft is spotted [before it starts its take-off run] and where it should start its actual rotation,” explained Rusnok. “Unlike a Harrier, which launches off the end of the ship flat, the F-35 rotates at about 225 feet from the bow, sits on two wheels until it gets to the end of the ship and actually takes off, a much different process to a Harrier. From a pilot perspective, you lose some sight of the front of the ship; in a Harrier you can see all the deck. But that’s all part of optimising a 35,000lb aeroplane to get off the ship compared to the Harrier, which is only 16,000 to 25,000lb.”
With stick STO the pilot controls the take-off by pulling back on the stick, holding it there and then rotating to the optimal pitch angle to fly off. In button STO, the pilot uses a trim switch which rotates the aircraft when pushed in, activating it when the aircraft passes the yellow STO rotation line positioned 225 feet from the bow of the ship.
“That was a temporary marking applied on the flight deck for this trial and is now being permanently installed on the ship with lighting,” explained Rusnok. “It’s based on optimising the performance of the aircraft and its flying qualities, so we can get the aeroplane off with the maximum amount of nozzle clearance and performance. The STO line is our visual cue to either pull the stick aft or hit the button; or if you’re on automated STO you should start seeing the aeroplane’s flight controls moving by the line, otherwise the pilot can intervene and pull back on the stick. We’ve never had to intervene.”
The pilot also has command of the throttle. Two power setting options are available for take-off: Mil STO and Max STO [have not read about this before], as Maj Rusnok explained: “When you taxi to the tram line you stay in mode one, the conventional flight mode. You convert the aircraft into mode four, the STOVL flight mode, and it takes about 15 seconds or so for the doors to open up and the lift fan to engage.
“Then you push the throttle about halfway up the throttle slide into a detent position at about 34% engine thrust request. It sits there and you check the engine gauges: if the readings are okay you slam the throttle to either Mil or Max position and then release the brakes simultaneously. Pushing through to max is like an afterburner detent. But it’s not an afterburner – you can’t go to afterburner in mode four.
“It’s a very fast acceleration. The closest we would spot from the bow is 400 feet, so about 175 feet before we would actually start rotating the aeroplane [at the STO rotation line]; so very, very quick.”
One of the big test points for DT I was to ensure adequate nozzle clearance in all the different test conditions. The engine nozzle swings down and back up during the take-off in accordance with inputs from the aircraft control laws.
“It’s all automated,” said Rusnok. “The pilot is not in the loop whatsoever – either they’re pushing the button and letting the aeroplane do its own thing or pulling back on the stick to help it. Monitoring systems cue when something is wrong, so you have to rely on them to keep you safe because the flight controls are being moved unbelievably quickly.”
Maj Rusnok said the take-off was very much like that ashore, with very little sink off the end of the deck. “The aeroplane is ridiculously powerful in STOVL mode. Just raw, unadulterated power.”
...There are three ways to conduct a short take off (STO) in the F-35B: stick STO, button STO – and auto STO. “That’s a completely automated way to STO the aircraft off the flight deck. You punch in a distance and the aircraft will auto rotate to its optimal fly-out condition. It’s all based on distance: we know where the aircraft is spotted [before it starts its take-off run] and where it should start its actual rotation,” explained Rusnok. “Unlike a Harrier, which launches off the end of the ship flat, the F-35 rotates at about 225 feet from the bow, sits on two wheels until it gets to the end of the ship and actually takes off, a much different process to a Harrier. From a pilot perspective, you lose some sight of the front of the ship; in a Harrier you can see all the deck. But that’s all part of optimising a 35,000lb aeroplane to get off the ship compared to the Harrier, which is only 16,000 to 25,000lb.”
With stick STO the pilot controls the take-off by pulling back on the stick, holding it there and then rotating to the optimal pitch angle to fly off. In button STO, the pilot uses a trim switch which rotates the aircraft when pushed in, activating it when the aircraft passes the yellow STO rotation line positioned 225 feet from the bow of the ship.
“That was a temporary marking applied on the flight deck for this trial and is now being permanently installed on the ship with lighting,” explained Rusnok. “It’s based on optimising the performance of the aircraft and its flying qualities, so we can get the aeroplane off with the maximum amount of nozzle clearance and performance. The STO line is our visual cue to either pull the stick aft or hit the button; or if you’re on automated STO you should start seeing the aeroplane’s flight controls moving by the line, otherwise the pilot can intervene and pull back on the stick. We’ve never had to intervene.”
The pilot also has command of the throttle. Two power setting options are available for take-off: Mil STO and Max STO [have not read about this before], as Maj Rusnok explained: “When you taxi to the tram line you stay in mode one, the conventional flight mode. You convert the aircraft into mode four, the STOVL flight mode, and it takes about 15 seconds or so for the doors to open up and the lift fan to engage.
“Then you push the throttle about halfway up the throttle slide into a detent position at about 34% engine thrust request. It sits there and you check the engine gauges: if the readings are okay you slam the throttle to either Mil or Max position and then release the brakes simultaneously. Pushing through to max is like an afterburner detent. But it’s not an afterburner – you can’t go to afterburner in mode four.
“It’s a very fast acceleration. The closest we would spot from the bow is 400 feet, so about 175 feet before we would actually start rotating the aeroplane [at the STO rotation line]; so very, very quick.”
One of the big test points for DT I was to ensure adequate nozzle clearance in all the different test conditions. The engine nozzle swings down and back up during the take-off in accordance with inputs from the aircraft control laws.
“It’s all automated,” said Rusnok. “The pilot is not in the loop whatsoever – either they’re pushing the button and letting the aeroplane do its own thing or pulling back on the stick to help it. Monitoring systems cue when something is wrong, so you have to rely on them to keep you safe because the flight controls are being moved unbelievably quickly.”
Maj Rusnok said the take-off was very much like that ashore, with very little sink off the end of the deck. “The aeroplane is ridiculously powerful in STOVL mode. Just raw, unadulterated power.”
