F-35 Cancelled, then what ?
Do a Hover - it avoids G
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Is the goal to say "Look, the F-35 is not perfect, but neither is anything else"?
My understanding is that hook/main gear geometry plays a very important part in hook beviour during touchdown. Because of the F-35 layout and stealth needs the fore and aft distance between the hook and the mainwheels is clearly less than recent USN service types.
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I'll guess this graphic is to scale from...
F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Concurrency Quick Look Review 29 Nov 2011
http://s3.documentcloud.org/document...ern-report.pdf (18.3Mb)
F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Concurrency Quick Look Review 29 Nov 2011
http://s3.documentcloud.org/document...ern-report.pdf (18.3Mb)
Yes, all known factors. There are slow-mo videos out there of what happens to the wire as the mainwheels pass over it, distort and flatten it, and as it then tries to return to the straight cross-deck alignment while the springs in the deck raise it back up. This is all supposed to happen between the wheels and the hook reaching the wire.
Short of designing some sort of tricky folding/telescoping hook to move the hook point back, or redesigning the back end of the F-35 to mount the whole thing further back, the attempted cure has been to lower the apex of the hook point (the better to slide it under the wire, pick the wire up and guide it into the throat) while keeping the hook as close to the deck as possible with changed damper settings.
However, you can't stiffen the damper up too much or you force the jet's tail up if the hook hits the deck, and get into a nasty snit with the FCS, not to mention showering sparks off the deck; and a pointy hook that nails the wire dead-on can shred it, which is also bad.
I'm sure they'll get it all sorted out...
Short of designing some sort of tricky folding/telescoping hook to move the hook point back, or redesigning the back end of the F-35 to mount the whole thing further back, the attempted cure has been to lower the apex of the hook point (the better to slide it under the wire, pick the wire up and guide it into the throat) while keeping the hook as close to the deck as possible with changed damper settings.
However, you can't stiffen the damper up too much or you force the jet's tail up if the hook hits the deck, and get into a nasty snit with the FCS, not to mention showering sparks off the deck; and a pointy hook that nails the wire dead-on can shred it, which is also bad.
I'm sure they'll get it all sorted out...
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Future MADL to iMADL 2018
"...Showering sparks off the deck..."? OOOOOWAAAHHH. OhMyGollyGosh. Youse'll have to wear eye protection and dark glasses on deck at night especially.
The A4G hook radius had to be unsharpened at times (so as to not damage dem wires).
Some info from a 2012 PDF about MADL (iMADL) in future....
Core Avionics Master Plan 2012 Appendix A-1
http://www.navair.navy.mil/pma209/_D...2012_Final.pdf (3.3Mb)
Onboard Tactical Data Fusion (JSF). (2014) The F-35B Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) is planned to be delivered with increased automated sensor data fusion, which is a key feature of fifth generation fighter aircraft. Most sensors are managed independently and operators select specific modes of system information display. The JSF will incorporate a fusion server that performs closed-loop sensor tasking to present combined system level track information. The track will still be presented with similar key tactical parameters (location, velocity vector, affiliation and identification), but the solution will be derived from a combination of all available sensor system inputs. Fused contributions from multiple sensor systems, including Electronic Warfare (EW), Radar, IFF, electro-optical, distributed aperture, as well as tactical data from networks such as Link 16 and Multi-function Advanced Data-link (MADL), will present a higher fidelity, higher confidence solution....
...I. Line of Sight (LOS) Information Exchange....
...Digitally aided Close Air Support (DaCAS) baseline implementation (2014). In Dec 2009 the Joint Requirements Oversight Council (JROC) approved the Joint Fires Executive Steering Groups objective to digitally interconnect Joint Terminal Attack Controller (JTAC) and Joint Fires Observer (JFO) systems with CAS platforms. The JROC endorsed the Variable Messaging Format (VMF) over CNR as the near term LOS CAS standard protocol, and directed the Joint Forces Command (JFCOM) DaCAS Change Control Board to define a common implementation of the appropriate standards (Block 1) by the end of 2010. Block 1 defines a link layer protocol (MIL-STD 188-220 Rev D Chg1), a message header standard (MIL-STD 47001D), and the VMF message standard (MIL-STD 6017B). CAS mission aircraft must configure for VMF Rev D Chg 1....
....E. Anti-Access Tactical Data Link. Anti Access refers to operations in regions with a threat level high enough to require Low Observable (LO) platforms.
1. Current capabilities. (none). [2015: LPI/LPD Data Link].
Naval Aviation currently will not have a 5th generation Low Probability of Intercept (LPI) or Low Probability of Detection (LPD) data link until 2015.
2. Funded Enhancements and Potential Pursuits.
Anti-Access Tactical Data Link (Multi-function Advanced Data Link – MADL). (2015) MADL is a Ku Band, short/medium range, directional, dynamic, LPI/LPD IP link being developed by the F-35B/C Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) program. It will be the unique LO data link, designed only for the F-35 as an intra-flight data link within the Anti-Access Region. It will operate as a linear network ("daisy chain”) architecture optimized for a limited number of nodes.
Stealth Interoperability (iMADL) (2018) MADL is proposed to be reengineered to work as an inter-flight LO data link within Anti-Access region and be also integrated on the F-22 and B-2...."
The A4G hook radius had to be unsharpened at times (so as to not damage dem wires).
Some info from a 2012 PDF about MADL (iMADL) in future....
Core Avionics Master Plan 2012 Appendix A-1
http://www.navair.navy.mil/pma209/_D...2012_Final.pdf (3.3Mb)
Onboard Tactical Data Fusion (JSF). (2014) The F-35B Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) is planned to be delivered with increased automated sensor data fusion, which is a key feature of fifth generation fighter aircraft. Most sensors are managed independently and operators select specific modes of system information display. The JSF will incorporate a fusion server that performs closed-loop sensor tasking to present combined system level track information. The track will still be presented with similar key tactical parameters (location, velocity vector, affiliation and identification), but the solution will be derived from a combination of all available sensor system inputs. Fused contributions from multiple sensor systems, including Electronic Warfare (EW), Radar, IFF, electro-optical, distributed aperture, as well as tactical data from networks such as Link 16 and Multi-function Advanced Data-link (MADL), will present a higher fidelity, higher confidence solution....
...I. Line of Sight (LOS) Information Exchange....
...Digitally aided Close Air Support (DaCAS) baseline implementation (2014). In Dec 2009 the Joint Requirements Oversight Council (JROC) approved the Joint Fires Executive Steering Groups objective to digitally interconnect Joint Terminal Attack Controller (JTAC) and Joint Fires Observer (JFO) systems with CAS platforms. The JROC endorsed the Variable Messaging Format (VMF) over CNR as the near term LOS CAS standard protocol, and directed the Joint Forces Command (JFCOM) DaCAS Change Control Board to define a common implementation of the appropriate standards (Block 1) by the end of 2010. Block 1 defines a link layer protocol (MIL-STD 188-220 Rev D Chg1), a message header standard (MIL-STD 47001D), and the VMF message standard (MIL-STD 6017B). CAS mission aircraft must configure for VMF Rev D Chg 1....
....E. Anti-Access Tactical Data Link. Anti Access refers to operations in regions with a threat level high enough to require Low Observable (LO) platforms.
1. Current capabilities. (none). [2015: LPI/LPD Data Link].
Naval Aviation currently will not have a 5th generation Low Probability of Intercept (LPI) or Low Probability of Detection (LPD) data link until 2015.
2. Funded Enhancements and Potential Pursuits.
Anti-Access Tactical Data Link (Multi-function Advanced Data Link – MADL). (2015) MADL is a Ku Band, short/medium range, directional, dynamic, LPI/LPD IP link being developed by the F-35B/C Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) program. It will be the unique LO data link, designed only for the F-35 as an intra-flight data link within the Anti-Access Region. It will operate as a linear network ("daisy chain”) architecture optimized for a limited number of nodes.
Stealth Interoperability (iMADL) (2018) MADL is proposed to be reengineered to work as an inter-flight LO data link within Anti-Access region and be also integrated on the F-22 and B-2...."
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 7th May 2013 at 22:46. Reason: iMADL for iPADls
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Block 2 F-35s for Eglin AFB
Eglin receives first upgraded F-35 By LAUREN SAGE REINLIE / Daily News 07 May 2013
NWF Daily News
"EGLIN AFB — A brand new F-35 with additional capabilities landed Monday afternoon....
...The Air Force’s 58th Fighter Squadron at Eglin Air Force Base is set to receive an additional 13 of the new F-35s, known as Block 2 aircraft, by the end of the year....
...The F-35 is the military’s newest stealth fighter jet. Students from all military branches who are learning to fly the plane go through the schoolhouse at Eglin, including some from international services.
Eglin’s first Block 2 jet includes some improvements over the first batches of planes. The F-35 is still in development stages and the actual flight training has been limited by the lack of capability in the early versions.
While a few of the improvements are related to design, the biggest difference is the new software, Kloos said.
Pilots for the first time will be able to begin using the state-of-the-art distributed aperture system, a series of six sensors embedded in the skin of the F-35 that provides a complete spherical view around the jet, day or night....
...The image will be displayed in the cockpit for now, but eventually should be available inside the pilot’s helmet.
The Block 2 jet is still restricted from certain maneuvers, including flying at night, aerobatics, taking off or landing in formation and flying during certain weather events or at certain speeds. Additional capabilities should arrive with new versions of the jet and software updates that already are in the pipeline....
...The Navy contingent at Eglin should receive its first two F-35s, which will also be Block 2 capable, by the end of the month...."
Probably best read in entiretititty at the jump.
NWF Daily News
"EGLIN AFB — A brand new F-35 with additional capabilities landed Monday afternoon....
...The Air Force’s 58th Fighter Squadron at Eglin Air Force Base is set to receive an additional 13 of the new F-35s, known as Block 2 aircraft, by the end of the year....
...The F-35 is the military’s newest stealth fighter jet. Students from all military branches who are learning to fly the plane go through the schoolhouse at Eglin, including some from international services.
Eglin’s first Block 2 jet includes some improvements over the first batches of planes. The F-35 is still in development stages and the actual flight training has been limited by the lack of capability in the early versions.
While a few of the improvements are related to design, the biggest difference is the new software, Kloos said.
Pilots for the first time will be able to begin using the state-of-the-art distributed aperture system, a series of six sensors embedded in the skin of the F-35 that provides a complete spherical view around the jet, day or night....
...The image will be displayed in the cockpit for now, but eventually should be available inside the pilot’s helmet.
The Block 2 jet is still restricted from certain maneuvers, including flying at night, aerobatics, taking off or landing in formation and flying during certain weather events or at certain speeds. Additional capabilities should arrive with new versions of the jet and software updates that already are in the pipeline....
...The Navy contingent at Eglin should receive its first two F-35s, which will also be Block 2 capable, by the end of the month...."
Probably best read in entiretititty at the jump.
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"...Showering sparks off the deck..."? OOOOOWAAAHHH. OhMyGollyGosh. Youse'll have to wear eye protection and dark glasses on deck at night especially.
It's a hard choice between that and the f-35b's spalling concrete, anti-runway weapon.. along withbuckling decks and immolating deck crew ... an area denial weapon where ever it lands
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Don't Tread on Me Wideos
Some badly behaved, feeling trampled upon wired videos for youse delectation...
Arrestor Wire Trample Behaviour HD at one/8th Speed
__________________________________
Arrestor Wire Arrest 1/8th speed
Arrestor Wire Trample Behaviour HD at one/8th Speed
__________________________________
Arrestor Wire Arrest 1/8th speed
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Cats n'Flaps Redux Rhino (perhaps relevant to F-35C - eventually)
Troubles with hooks/flaps? Don't believe it. It can be easily faked....
Paddles monthly May 2013
Half-Flap Rhino Brad “Barf” Byers
http://hrana.org/wp-content/uploads/...hlyMay2013.pdf
"...The question is, can we, and more importantly should we, make half-flaps the standard configuration for Rhinos during CV operations?...
...That said, the old adage applies, “there is no free lunch.” The consensus during carrier suitability testing was that there is a slight improvement to handling characteristics at half-flaps (it’s worth noting that, historically, it doesn’t get much easier than landing a Rhino on the boat)....
...To reiterate an earlier statistic, a half-flap Rhino will hit the arresting gear 8 kts faster than a full-flap Rhino, a 7% increase in arresting gear loads and a FLE impact to the arresting gear. With the bulk of our Air Wings now being comprised of Rhinos, this is not a moot point. There are other potential consequences that are worth investigating in addition to arresting gear FLE issues. A Rhino recently taxied out of the LA, following an arrested landing, with its hook point dangling by the hook-point bolt at one end. One end of the hook-point bolt had sheared off completely. This example is the most dramatic of several recent HAZREPS highlighting Rhino hook-point issues. Airframe FLE is also a concern that must be evaluated.
From a layman’s perspective, there could be several causes for these hook point issues. Rhinos selecting burner in the wires, a 480 standard single-weight setting (this shouldn’t be the issue), or (drum roll please) pilots selecting half-flaps on their own after hearing Paddles announce the winds. You heard that right. I recently heard a rumor that some pilots are hearing the winds call and selecting the flap setting that they prefer. This is a serious safety concern that needs Paddles’ immediate attention. If you have individuals in your Air Wing who think it’s OK to select their flap setting based on your winds call, you need to put an end to that yesterday...."
There is an issue with F-35C performing better in FCLP with half flap rather than full flap at moment (an ongoing testing item as I understand).
Paddles monthly May 2013
Half-Flap Rhino Brad “Barf” Byers
http://hrana.org/wp-content/uploads/...hlyMay2013.pdf
"...The question is, can we, and more importantly should we, make half-flaps the standard configuration for Rhinos during CV operations?...
...That said, the old adage applies, “there is no free lunch.” The consensus during carrier suitability testing was that there is a slight improvement to handling characteristics at half-flaps (it’s worth noting that, historically, it doesn’t get much easier than landing a Rhino on the boat)....
...To reiterate an earlier statistic, a half-flap Rhino will hit the arresting gear 8 kts faster than a full-flap Rhino, a 7% increase in arresting gear loads and a FLE impact to the arresting gear. With the bulk of our Air Wings now being comprised of Rhinos, this is not a moot point. There are other potential consequences that are worth investigating in addition to arresting gear FLE issues. A Rhino recently taxied out of the LA, following an arrested landing, with its hook point dangling by the hook-point bolt at one end. One end of the hook-point bolt had sheared off completely. This example is the most dramatic of several recent HAZREPS highlighting Rhino hook-point issues. Airframe FLE is also a concern that must be evaluated.
From a layman’s perspective, there could be several causes for these hook point issues. Rhinos selecting burner in the wires, a 480 standard single-weight setting (this shouldn’t be the issue), or (drum roll please) pilots selecting half-flaps on their own after hearing Paddles announce the winds. You heard that right. I recently heard a rumor that some pilots are hearing the winds call and selecting the flap setting that they prefer. This is a serious safety concern that needs Paddles’ immediate attention. If you have individuals in your Air Wing who think it’s OK to select their flap setting based on your winds call, you need to put an end to that yesterday...."
There is an issue with F-35C performing better in FCLP with half flap rather than full flap at moment (an ongoing testing item as I understand).
From another forum
LO -10~-15 dbsm or less
VLO -25~-30 dbsm or less
But no source for these numbers.
LO -10~-15 dbsm or less
VLO -25~-30 dbsm or less
But no source for these numbers.
Depends where you measure it. It could be -3db, but the RCS model isn't a sphere so it's a bit like the definition of 'affordable housing'. That's why it's so easy to redefine... ...twice. So far.
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"glad rag... So what is the difference between VLO and LO then? ."
It depends who said it and in what context, spaz's link "Anti Access refers to operations in regions with a threat level high enough to require Low Observable (LO) platforms."....would also include other LO platforms including the F-22..it can be a generic over-view term or can subdivide into LO-VLO-ULO
It depends who said it and in what context, spaz's link "Anti Access refers to operations in regions with a threat level high enough to require Low Observable (LO) platforms."....would also include other LO platforms including the F-22..it can be a generic over-view term or can subdivide into LO-VLO-ULO
Last edited by JSFfan; 8th May 2013 at 18:29.
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I never use to but I'm leaning towards the term stealth...it gets rid of all the guess work and more people have heard of it
the Canadian webinar is now online Webcasts
the Canadian webinar is now online Webcasts
Last edited by JSFfan; 8th May 2013 at 19:33.
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Spaz,
Excellent posts and thank you. They are a useful counterweight to the perception held by many in the UK that the F-35C was a 'no risk' solution compared to the F-35B. They also show that the business of arrested recoveries is a complex interplay between the aircraft and the arresting gear on the ship, with a healthy dose of pilot technique thrown in. The USN make it look easy, but that's because they are very, very good at it.
They also have a really excellent culture of open reporting and discussion, as shown by the link to the 'Paddles Monthly' you provided. I think it's a great example of how to identify, address and manage safety issues within a professional flying community, rather than relying on a massive regulatory structure to do it all. The UK should take note.
Your links also show progress on the F-35C tail hook issue - clearly, they have some work to do, but they look as if they are moving in the right direction. A couple of points. Firstly, from my experience on the programme, the tail hook design was subjected to close examination by the USN experts, and compared against all applicable standards and requirements. It passed. In particular, there was no standard for wheel to hook distance. Bottom line - they didn't 'get it wrong'.
Secondly, approach speed to the wire was the only CV specific KPP applied to the programme, and that recognised the fact that it's going to be a challenge for an LO aircraft that can't use many of the lift enhancing devices available to a conventional design, like slotted flaps. The 'half vs full flap' discussion you mentioned will be a live one if it increases the F-35C trap speed.
Finally, wire trampling and whipping is a well appreciated phenomenon, and LM and the USN will factor it into any solution. It's one of those pesky naval aviation thingies that land based aviators (understandably) don't know much about. Sadly, that lack of knowledge has led to some comment in the UK Press that bordered on the hysterical.
Best regards as ever to all those calm heads working the issues
Engines
Excellent posts and thank you. They are a useful counterweight to the perception held by many in the UK that the F-35C was a 'no risk' solution compared to the F-35B. They also show that the business of arrested recoveries is a complex interplay between the aircraft and the arresting gear on the ship, with a healthy dose of pilot technique thrown in. The USN make it look easy, but that's because they are very, very good at it.
They also have a really excellent culture of open reporting and discussion, as shown by the link to the 'Paddles Monthly' you provided. I think it's a great example of how to identify, address and manage safety issues within a professional flying community, rather than relying on a massive regulatory structure to do it all. The UK should take note.
Your links also show progress on the F-35C tail hook issue - clearly, they have some work to do, but they look as if they are moving in the right direction. A couple of points. Firstly, from my experience on the programme, the tail hook design was subjected to close examination by the USN experts, and compared against all applicable standards and requirements. It passed. In particular, there was no standard for wheel to hook distance. Bottom line - they didn't 'get it wrong'.
Secondly, approach speed to the wire was the only CV specific KPP applied to the programme, and that recognised the fact that it's going to be a challenge for an LO aircraft that can't use many of the lift enhancing devices available to a conventional design, like slotted flaps. The 'half vs full flap' discussion you mentioned will be a live one if it increases the F-35C trap speed.
Finally, wire trampling and whipping is a well appreciated phenomenon, and LM and the USN will factor it into any solution. It's one of those pesky naval aviation thingies that land based aviators (understandably) don't know much about. Sadly, that lack of knowledge has led to some comment in the UK Press that bordered on the hysterical.
Best regards as ever to all those calm heads working the issues
Engines
JSFfan, 'Stealth' is a similarly vague term these days, but no less appropriate. As you haven't seen the 3D RCS graphs (at any frequency or polarization) it's probably a good term to use. As for the 'webinar', I afraid I agree with you somewhat less. The following is far too much of a sell line...
Oh good.
With unmatched capabilities, interoperability with allies and the potential for billions of dollars in job-creating industry partnerships, the F-35 Lightning II is the right partner for a secure Canada.
Join us as an F-35 expert and F-35 test pilot discuss why the F-35 is the best solution for Canada, including:
Join us as an F-35 expert and F-35 test pilot discuss why the F-35 is the best solution for Canada, including:
- Unmatched stealth and agility to protect Canada’s borders
- Industrial partnerships with more than 50 Canadian companies
- Full interoperability with allies for a more secure world
Last edited by Courtney Mil; 8th May 2013 at 21:00.
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Quote: With unmatched capabilities, interoperability with allies and the potential for billions of dollars in job-creating industry partnerships, the F-35 Lightning II is the right partner for a secure Canada.
Join us as an F-35 expert and F-35 test pilot discuss why the F-35 is the best solution for Canada, including:
Unmatched stealth and agility to protect Canada’s borders
Industrial partnerships with more than 50 Canadian companies
Full interoperability with allies for a more secure world
Join us as an F-35 expert and F-35 test pilot discuss why the F-35 is the best solution for Canada, including:
Unmatched stealth and agility to protect Canada’s borders
Industrial partnerships with more than 50 Canadian companies
Full interoperability with allies for a more secure world
-RP
there was no standard for wheel to hook distance
wire trampling and whipping is a well appreciated phenomenon, and LM and the USN will factor it into any solution
And to follow LO's ridiculed point, you can't just force the hook down onto the deck a bit harder. Those sparks don't just need sunglasses, they indicate serious metal work - wear to the deck and the hook shoes.
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USN Night Deck Landings Create HOOK/DECK BRIGHT SPARKS
'Courtney Mil' I do not see 'conflicting statements by 'Engines' as you say. As for my comment about 'sparks'. Metal on Metal (or likely THERMION covered Metal) will make sparks - no matter how gentle the contact. Have a look at night carrier landings to see the sparks fly. And why do you protect 'Low Observable'?
I thought I had made the point earlier about "...indicate serious metal work - wear to the deck and the hook shoes." This is a given. A4G maintainers either of their own accord through inspections or at request of deck gear chaps, would blunt the steadily sharpened A4G hooks. These hooks have a finite life also; to be replaced as required. Have you seen up close the state of a 'cats n'flaps' carrier metal deck?
I'll find a night DL video for youse..... No need to watch all this otherwise excellent video - the night deck sparks de hook are only at beginning - after that - fun/games.
F/A-18 $hit Hot Break
"Published on Dec 5, 2012 From CloudSurfProductions...
VFA-211 Super Hornets bringing the $hit Hot Break and bagging a few traps onboard the USS Enterprise. Also known as the "Triple Nickel" (Breaking 500', 500kts and .5NM BEFORE the boat). ***Not an Official Navy Video***"
F/A-18 $hit Hot Break - YouTube
The first two time lapse photos of 'bright sparks' NOT from the video - the third one is - click thumbnails below for bigga pickcha:
I thought I had made the point earlier about "...indicate serious metal work - wear to the deck and the hook shoes." This is a given. A4G maintainers either of their own accord through inspections or at request of deck gear chaps, would blunt the steadily sharpened A4G hooks. These hooks have a finite life also; to be replaced as required. Have you seen up close the state of a 'cats n'flaps' carrier metal deck?
I'll find a night DL video for youse..... No need to watch all this otherwise excellent video - the night deck sparks de hook are only at beginning - after that - fun/games.
F/A-18 $hit Hot Break
"Published on Dec 5, 2012 From CloudSurfProductions...
VFA-211 Super Hornets bringing the $hit Hot Break and bagging a few traps onboard the USS Enterprise. Also known as the "Triple Nickel" (Breaking 500', 500kts and .5NM BEFORE the boat). ***Not an Official Navy Video***"
F/A-18 $hit Hot Break - YouTube
The first two time lapse photos of 'bright sparks' NOT from the video - the third one is - click thumbnails below for bigga pickcha:
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 9th May 2013 at 03:26. Reason: JPG link(s) + STILL Frame from Video Added
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Do not get cross with my pendant(ry)
An informative blog post about all day every day 'wire abuse'.
Cross Deck Pendant – Redux December 12th, 2009[/b]
Cross Deck Pendant ? Redux
__________________
Click thumbnail for a flight deck wear pattern photo example from: https://www.corrdefense.org/Academia...ifeNonSkid.pdf
Cross Deck Pendant – Redux December 12th, 2009[/b]
Cross Deck Pendant ? Redux
__________________
Click thumbnail for a flight deck wear pattern photo example from: https://www.corrdefense.org/Academia...ifeNonSkid.pdf
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 8th May 2013 at 23:15. Reason: Flight Deck Weary Pattern