Why no helo transport? Are we condemning our diggers to an easy victimology?
.
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 291
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How long before Australia faces similar Defence cuts to the ones now being faced by the Brits? (See the many threads running on this same board since David Cameron's announcement.)
For those who think it'll never happen, let me mention one name... "Bob Brown". (And if there's anyone out there who thinks Defence will survive at the expense of Social Welfare and Environmental Protection projects, I have a bridge you might like buy...)
And after the spending cuts are in, I ask the AAAvn people out there what they'd rather be operating? Equipment that costs $5,000 an hour to operate or equipment that costs $35,000 an hour to operate?
I see Angus saying yesterday that "no expense will be spared" in defending the three SF soldiers charged over the civilian deaths last February. Myself, I could think up a way to save much of those expenses -
(1) Australia withdraws from the treaty (thank you, Mr Howard) that puts our soldiers at risk of being charged by the ICC for any 'offence' the ICC deems that they may be charged over.
(2) Drop the independent military tribunal (again, thank you, Mr Howard) that sees soldiers being tried by lawyers who've never been closer to a battlefield than the O's Mess in Kandahar rather than by other soldiers who know what going in to a defended cantonment at night actually means.
For those who think it'll never happen, let me mention one name... "Bob Brown". (And if there's anyone out there who thinks Defence will survive at the expense of Social Welfare and Environmental Protection projects, I have a bridge you might like buy...)
And after the spending cuts are in, I ask the AAAvn people out there what they'd rather be operating? Equipment that costs $5,000 an hour to operate or equipment that costs $35,000 an hour to operate?
I see Angus saying yesterday that "no expense will be spared" in defending the three SF soldiers charged over the civilian deaths last February. Myself, I could think up a way to save much of those expenses -
(1) Australia withdraws from the treaty (thank you, Mr Howard) that puts our soldiers at risk of being charged by the ICC for any 'offence' the ICC deems that they may be charged over.
(2) Drop the independent military tribunal (again, thank you, Mr Howard) that sees soldiers being tried by lawyers who've never been closer to a battlefield than the O's Mess in Kandahar rather than by other soldiers who know what going in to a defended cantonment at night actually means.
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: North Arm Cove, NSW, Australia
Age: 86
Posts: 229
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
See this link: The war debate we haven't had | The Australian
By a journalist whom I normally do not give much credit but he is on the right track re military helicopters.
By a journalist whom I normally do not give much credit but he is on the right track re military helicopters.
Last edited by Bushranger 71; 21st Oct 2010 at 03:36.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia - South of where I'd like to be !
Age: 59
Posts: 4,261
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
7x7
" How long before Australia faces similar Defence cuts to the ones now being faced by the Brits? (See the many threads running on this same board since David Cameron's announcement.)
For those who think it'll never happen, let me mention one name... "Bob Brown". (And if there's anyone out there who thinks Defence will survive at the expense of Social Welfare and Environmental Protection projects, I have a bridge you might like buy...)
And after the spending cuts are in, I ask the AAAvn people out there what they'd rather be operating? Equipment that costs $5,000 an hour to operate or equipment that costs $35,000 an hour to operate?"
What makes you say the above ?
It's not like Australia is short of money - at least while the commodities boom continues. If that ends, then it will be a different story.
I can understand Bob Brown using his political leverage to get more money for his Latte sipping agenda and defence just might have to fight a bit harder to get money for projects, although I feel jobs in local areas will determine more than a few decisions along that track.
Bushranger
Interesting point Greg made re the helicopters. I wonder how much effort is being made by the Senior people in the ADF to supress that type of link between assets on hand and deployability ?
" How long before Australia faces similar Defence cuts to the ones now being faced by the Brits? (See the many threads running on this same board since David Cameron's announcement.)
For those who think it'll never happen, let me mention one name... "Bob Brown". (And if there's anyone out there who thinks Defence will survive at the expense of Social Welfare and Environmental Protection projects, I have a bridge you might like buy...)
And after the spending cuts are in, I ask the AAAvn people out there what they'd rather be operating? Equipment that costs $5,000 an hour to operate or equipment that costs $35,000 an hour to operate?"
What makes you say the above ?
It's not like Australia is short of money - at least while the commodities boom continues. If that ends, then it will be a different story.
I can understand Bob Brown using his political leverage to get more money for his Latte sipping agenda and defence just might have to fight a bit harder to get money for projects, although I feel jobs in local areas will determine more than a few decisions along that track.
Bushranger
Interesting point Greg made re the helicopters. I wonder how much effort is being made by the Senior people in the ADF to supress that type of link between assets on hand and deployability ?
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: North Arm Cove, NSW, Australia
Age: 86
Posts: 229
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi 500N,
Have to disagree with you regarding Australia's financial integrity. A substantial national debt now exists with huge downstream outlays necessary concerning infrastructure, health, an aging population, etcetera. GFC2 seems imminent and the China driven resources boom will unlikely continue at present pace. Federal government revenue dropped substantially in 2009/10 and the Treasurer commented recently that there will likely be some more negative effects on revenue from some happenings beyond Australia's control.
Both major political parties have endorsed compounding growth of defence spending out to 2030 which is unachievable realistically and ADF expansion envisaged in Rudd's rushed White Paper 2009 is just not feasible. There will probably be some squirming going on within the DoD regarding their ambitious 10 year Defence Capability Plan as some pruning of defence expenditure seems inevitable.
Digressing a bit; I am told that 9SQN Association collected Iroquois UH-1H A2-771 last Monday and it is now hangared at RAAF Base Amberley where it will be restored to original Bushranger gunship configuration (in Air Force livery) over the next year for historical purposes - A2-773, the prototype and thus original Bushranger, has been assigned elsewhere. The Afghanistan helo and fire support issue need not have arisen had these 20 or so aircraft been kept in service and upgraded to Huey II.
I keep informing multiple politicians of both major political parties regarding the decline in ADF deployability capabilities and a few journalists also seem to be probing defence issues which might be making some senior people a bit nervous. No doubt 'big brother' is also monitoring this and other forums, although I have not as yet had any visits from 'men in dark glasses'!
Have to disagree with you regarding Australia's financial integrity. A substantial national debt now exists with huge downstream outlays necessary concerning infrastructure, health, an aging population, etcetera. GFC2 seems imminent and the China driven resources boom will unlikely continue at present pace. Federal government revenue dropped substantially in 2009/10 and the Treasurer commented recently that there will likely be some more negative effects on revenue from some happenings beyond Australia's control.
Both major political parties have endorsed compounding growth of defence spending out to 2030 which is unachievable realistically and ADF expansion envisaged in Rudd's rushed White Paper 2009 is just not feasible. There will probably be some squirming going on within the DoD regarding their ambitious 10 year Defence Capability Plan as some pruning of defence expenditure seems inevitable.
Digressing a bit; I am told that 9SQN Association collected Iroquois UH-1H A2-771 last Monday and it is now hangared at RAAF Base Amberley where it will be restored to original Bushranger gunship configuration (in Air Force livery) over the next year for historical purposes - A2-773, the prototype and thus original Bushranger, has been assigned elsewhere. The Afghanistan helo and fire support issue need not have arisen had these 20 or so aircraft been kept in service and upgraded to Huey II.
I keep informing multiple politicians of both major political parties regarding the decline in ADF deployability capabilities and a few journalists also seem to be probing defence issues which might be making some senior people a bit nervous. No doubt 'big brother' is also monitoring this and other forums, although I have not as yet had any visits from 'men in dark glasses'!
Last edited by Bushranger 71; 21st Oct 2010 at 07:48.
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: North Arm Cove, NSW, Australia
Age: 86
Posts: 229
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi TBM-Legend,
A very kind offer, but I am not involved with that project and it seems there is now a hangar dedicated at Amberley for historical purposes with some additional official organizational bits created around the country to preserve significant history. Long overdue of course.
A very kind offer, but I am not involved with that project and it seems there is now a hangar dedicated at Amberley for historical purposes with some additional official organizational bits created around the country to preserve significant history. Long overdue of course.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 665
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Given that we have troops committed to a war at the moment, wouldn't it be nice if we had operational helicopters in our military inventory to replace the ones we're putting into museums?
- Before we put them into museums?
Only in Australia...
- Before we put them into museums?
Only in Australia...
Registered User **
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: The Moorings
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Our NATO "Friends" will protect the Diggers - Riiiight!
THE special forces patrol drove headlong into a massive ambush. The intelligence was strong, but what it didn't say was that 150 heavily armed insurgents would stage a rolling ambush in a bold bid to wipe out the Australian, US and Afghan "hunter killer" patrol.
Soon after, as they fought the fight of their lives and as the first casualties began to fall, the Diggers spotted two Dutch Apache helicopters escorting a Chinook chopper to a nearby forward operating base.
"Salvation" they thought as the joint terminal air controller (JTAC) responsible for guiding air support radioed the pilots asking them to bring their Hellfire laser-guided missiles and 30mm cannons to the fight near the village of Khaz Oruzgan. As the call went out the soldiers on the ground endured withering enemy mortar, small arms and rocket-propelled grenade fire. The casualties grew.
"We're in an absolute doozy of a **** fight. We need your assistance as we're taking casualties," the JTAC - known only by his initials of SG - told the Dutch pilots.
He gave the Dutch target indicators but the chopper pilots refused to drop under their "safe" height of 5000m. Below that level aircraft are vulnerable to small arms fire, but the armour-plated Apaches are designed to operate under heavy fire at very low altitudes.
..................former SAS soldier and ex-Royal Marine Rob Maylor, who sustained serious shrapnel wounds during the battle, reveals intricate details of the ambush and the lack of Dutch help.
"They wouldn't open up on the Taliban for fear they might draw some fire themselves," Maylor said of the September 2008 battle that cost the life of one US soldier and left seven SAS soldiers and two sappers badly wounded.
"I honestly thought that we wouldn't get out of there alive. If the bad guys had got any closer it would have been all over for us," he said.
As the Special Forces patrol was being pounded from all sides, another SAS soldier marked targets for the choppers using a .50 calibre heavy machinegun to kick up dust clouds close to enemy positions.
"They still wouldn't engage. SG had had enough so he told them, 'If you're not going to engage then you might as well f. .k off' and they did. Cheers boys," Maylor wrote.
The revelations add weight to the views of Australian soldiers on the frontline, including one whose email appeal for greater fire support was published by The Daily Telegraph, that they need more firepower.
Soon after, as they fought the fight of their lives and as the first casualties began to fall, the Diggers spotted two Dutch Apache helicopters escorting a Chinook chopper to a nearby forward operating base.
"Salvation" they thought as the joint terminal air controller (JTAC) responsible for guiding air support radioed the pilots asking them to bring their Hellfire laser-guided missiles and 30mm cannons to the fight near the village of Khaz Oruzgan. As the call went out the soldiers on the ground endured withering enemy mortar, small arms and rocket-propelled grenade fire. The casualties grew.
"We're in an absolute doozy of a **** fight. We need your assistance as we're taking casualties," the JTAC - known only by his initials of SG - told the Dutch pilots.
He gave the Dutch target indicators but the chopper pilots refused to drop under their "safe" height of 5000m. Below that level aircraft are vulnerable to small arms fire, but the armour-plated Apaches are designed to operate under heavy fire at very low altitudes.
..................former SAS soldier and ex-Royal Marine Rob Maylor, who sustained serious shrapnel wounds during the battle, reveals intricate details of the ambush and the lack of Dutch help.
"They wouldn't open up on the Taliban for fear they might draw some fire themselves," Maylor said of the September 2008 battle that cost the life of one US soldier and left seven SAS soldiers and two sappers badly wounded.
"I honestly thought that we wouldn't get out of there alive. If the bad guys had got any closer it would have been all over for us," he said.
As the Special Forces patrol was being pounded from all sides, another SAS soldier marked targets for the choppers using a .50 calibre heavy machinegun to kick up dust clouds close to enemy positions.
"They still wouldn't engage. SG had had enough so he told them, 'If you're not going to engage then you might as well f. .k off' and they did. Cheers boys," Maylor wrote.
The revelations add weight to the views of Australian soldiers on the frontline, including one whose email appeal for greater fire support was published by The Daily Telegraph, that they need more firepower.
- Ian McPhedran
- From: The Daily Telegraph
- October 22, 2010
Top brass and politicians have stepped up their campaign to discredit troops and others calling for more help, with Defence Minister Stephen Smith repeating the mantra of Lieutenant-General Mark Evans that such claims were "inaccurate and ill-informed".
"Capabilities such as artillery, mortars and attack helicopters are available through our partners," Mr Smith told Parliament.
One of the specific complaints in the email concerned a lack of helicopter support during another deadly battle that claimed the life of Private Jared Mackinney.
"Capabilities such as artillery, mortars and attack helicopters are available through our partners," Mr Smith told Parliament.
One of the specific complaints in the email concerned a lack of helicopter support during another deadly battle that claimed the life of Private Jared Mackinney.
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 543
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is there someone out there who is able (willing? - I don't think Official Secrets/security should be involved) to give us outsiders some idea of what would be required to the Oz Blackhawks up to specs to make them usable in Afghanistan? I know the original idea was that it wouldn't be necessary, as they' soon be replaced by the MRH-90s, but for some time now, 'soon' is looking like not being anytime... err... soon.
The Blackhawk would never make a good CAS platform, it is far too vulnerable to ground fire, not particularly manouverable or high performing, and would require quite a lot of modification to re-role.
Bushranger, the Huey II idea probably should have happened a long time ago, but it is getting out of date now. I respect that the fact that you have a lot of experience and knowledge in this field.
A good CAS platform for the ADF would be one with long loiter time, presicion guided weapons and real-time datalink capability. An aircraft that can remain clear of most gound fire and also provide battlefield surveillance and comms relay, in addition to targeting; essential for effective networked operations. IMHO this means a UAV, as much as I hate to say it. Probably the most effective CAS platform in the ADFs current inventory would be an F/A-18. Helicopters are very vulnerable to ground fire and have not fared well in the 'Ghan or Iraq. They are still essential for many roles within the ADF (Knucks may argue!) but IMHO CAS is not one of them.
Bushranger, the Huey II idea probably should have happened a long time ago, but it is getting out of date now. I respect that the fact that you have a lot of experience and knowledge in this field.
A good CAS platform for the ADF would be one with long loiter time, presicion guided weapons and real-time datalink capability. An aircraft that can remain clear of most gound fire and also provide battlefield surveillance and comms relay, in addition to targeting; essential for effective networked operations. IMHO this means a UAV, as much as I hate to say it. Probably the most effective CAS platform in the ADFs current inventory would be an F/A-18. Helicopters are very vulnerable to ground fire and have not fared well in the 'Ghan or Iraq. They are still essential for many roles within the ADF (Knucks may argue!) but IMHO CAS is not one of them.
"Helicopters are very vulnerable to ground fire"
What a load of rubbish! How many F18s would have sucked up an RPG and 25+ MG/HMG rounds like the RAF Chinook did in the 'Stan last year? The issue with RW is that we fly constantly in the threat band and have to to do our job. We don't have the luxury of mincing around at FL250 dropping PGMs. Therefore our exposure increases our liklihood of being hit, but Vietnam and subsequent wars have proven that RW are actually surprisingly robust. As for CAS, I'd take an Apache/Cobra over FW almost every time - more responsive and understanding of our needs. The majority of RW losses in Theatre are as a result of accidents, mainly due to the high ambient temperatures and brown-out issues - not to enemy fire.
What a load of rubbish! How many F18s would have sucked up an RPG and 25+ MG/HMG rounds like the RAF Chinook did in the 'Stan last year? The issue with RW is that we fly constantly in the threat band and have to to do our job. We don't have the luxury of mincing around at FL250 dropping PGMs. Therefore our exposure increases our liklihood of being hit, but Vietnam and subsequent wars have proven that RW are actually surprisingly robust. As for CAS, I'd take an Apache/Cobra over FW almost every time - more responsive and understanding of our needs. The majority of RW losses in Theatre are as a result of accidents, mainly due to the high ambient temperatures and brown-out issues - not to enemy fire.
Join Date: Dec 1998
Location: Down Under
Posts: 210
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Blackhawk would never make a good CAS platform, it is far too vulnerable to ground fire, not particularly manouverable or high performing, and would require quite a lot of modification to re-role.
MH-60L DAP
HPT
ARH must go
HPT,
Whilst the DAP is good it is not a bespoke CCA platform and not something the ADF could field any time soon (if it wanted to). We already have a capable CCA platform combined with an impressive ISR capability. The ARH would be more than capable of providing the fires our boys require (hellfire, rockets and 30mm). It could go now I am told if there was the political will to make it happen. On the one hand we are being told it is ready and the most capable thing AAAvn has ever fielded and impressing all - yet it is not where it is needed most? This latest revelation about the inability of the Dutch AH-64 to provide what was required in a TiC in late 08 must surely increase the pressure to send our own organic CCA.
Whilst the DAP is good it is not a bespoke CCA platform and not something the ADF could field any time soon (if it wanted to). We already have a capable CCA platform combined with an impressive ISR capability. The ARH would be more than capable of providing the fires our boys require (hellfire, rockets and 30mm). It could go now I am told if there was the political will to make it happen. On the one hand we are being told it is ready and the most capable thing AAAvn has ever fielded and impressing all - yet it is not where it is needed most? This latest revelation about the inability of the Dutch AH-64 to provide what was required in a TiC in late 08 must surely increase the pressure to send our own organic CCA.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: OZ
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MTOW,
I'll give it a shot and start the ball rolling and everyone else can yell me down...
Our blackhawks are unique and a little on the old side. They are also designated S70-A so are different from the basic US blackhawk. You know we can't buy off the shelf.....
I think our engines are probably originals - they don't have FADEC's and low on power compared to the new mike models. therefore when operating hot and high (TK about 5500ft above sea level) then they can't carry many people and don't handle very well at that altitude. So new engines would be in order. Having fadecs would stop the lag as well and therefore rotor droop.
Which may also mean upgrading transmission to take the new power and maybe new wiring for engine managment systems.
Avionics - steam driven, GPS's drop out with large angles of bank, no moving map display (but chinoks use a different system i think).
Self protection - EWSP suite has not been updated since purchase - maybe ok against SA7 - wouldn't be too keen to see it go against SA16, SA18 or chinese/iranian copies etc.
Overall, nothing money can't fix.......however probably not going to get it in these troubled times, need money for boat arrivals, NBN, water buy backs doubt that's going to happen.
OR maybe do a C-17/super honret and buy/lease some off the shelf that are compatible with the US aircraft.
Comments
Frazzled
I'll give it a shot and start the ball rolling and everyone else can yell me down...
Our blackhawks are unique and a little on the old side. They are also designated S70-A so are different from the basic US blackhawk. You know we can't buy off the shelf.....
I think our engines are probably originals - they don't have FADEC's and low on power compared to the new mike models. therefore when operating hot and high (TK about 5500ft above sea level) then they can't carry many people and don't handle very well at that altitude. So new engines would be in order. Having fadecs would stop the lag as well and therefore rotor droop.
Which may also mean upgrading transmission to take the new power and maybe new wiring for engine managment systems.
Avionics - steam driven, GPS's drop out with large angles of bank, no moving map display (but chinoks use a different system i think).
Self protection - EWSP suite has not been updated since purchase - maybe ok against SA7 - wouldn't be too keen to see it go against SA16, SA18 or chinese/iranian copies etc.
Overall, nothing money can't fix.......however probably not going to get it in these troubled times, need money for boat arrivals, NBN, water buy backs doubt that's going to happen.
OR maybe do a C-17/super honret and buy/lease some off the shelf that are compatible with the US aircraft.
Comments
Frazzled
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia - South of where I'd like to be !
Age: 59
Posts: 4,261
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Any fire support from above, even an M60 out of a door would
be welcome by troops on the ground, even if only to give enough
time to do a clean break contact.
I fail to understand why Australia / the ADF has to come up with weird and wonderful capabilities that stops us buying off the shelf items and slightly
modifying them, instead of reworking everything.
Especially since we seem to operate with the US a lot, why we can't dovetail onto what they do at the same time - or get the model 2's after the bugs have been ironed out.
Also, are the Tiger's ready or not ? Seem to be conflicting reports.
And if not, why is it taking so long to get them operational ?
Isn't Afghan the perfect place to use them, especially when our troops are needing them most ?
On the subject of the Dutch, I noticed a media release saying the Dutch have been asked to look into the claims. It has obviously struck a cord in the Gov't for such a quick media response. I just hope it has some positive effect.
be welcome by troops on the ground, even if only to give enough
time to do a clean break contact.
I fail to understand why Australia / the ADF has to come up with weird and wonderful capabilities that stops us buying off the shelf items and slightly
modifying them, instead of reworking everything.
Especially since we seem to operate with the US a lot, why we can't dovetail onto what they do at the same time - or get the model 2's after the bugs have been ironed out.
Also, are the Tiger's ready or not ? Seem to be conflicting reports.
And if not, why is it taking so long to get them operational ?
Isn't Afghan the perfect place to use them, especially when our troops are needing them most ?
On the subject of the Dutch, I noticed a media release saying the Dutch have been asked to look into the claims. It has obviously struck a cord in the Gov't for such a quick media response. I just hope it has some positive effect.