Quality of Uniform
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Z_M - I agree with most of what you say. Some of the 'system' is rubbish, some of it works. I've tried to change some of the system from the inside, but it's bigger than me. The working blues uniform is utter bobbins and has been since before I got into the RAF. Part of the problem is the RAF Board (who make the decisions on such things) changing their minds every few years. Changing contractors is a reflection of industry more than it is a reflection of the RAF - cost and directives drive us to the lowest cost and the shrinking budget means more effort is diverted to operational clothing.
The lack of manning is reflected in the service you are getting. More pressure will be on the support of the flying, so effort is shifted there and clothing/barrack sucks from the hind teat once more. Speak to the Supply management on unit if there is a problem.
I can't understand the sizing system to this day. If I want a waterproof jacket 'outside', the shop may well have XS to XL and, if I'm lucky, XXL. I'll probably get one to fit. Not the RAF. About 78 different sizes and nothing to fit a tall human being!
Tailoring - we're chasing a dying specialization there - we need to get a bit more 21st Century on that and make it easier to source to give quicker turnaround. Some poor contracts written there.
I work in DE&S and face the same issues you do - I see several ranks up from me facing the same issues and that isn't exactly filling me with hope. Some things really are too big to change other than at a glacial pace.
The lack of manning is reflected in the service you are getting. More pressure will be on the support of the flying, so effort is shifted there and clothing/barrack sucks from the hind teat once more. Speak to the Supply management on unit if there is a problem.
I can't understand the sizing system to this day. If I want a waterproof jacket 'outside', the shop may well have XS to XL and, if I'm lucky, XXL. I'll probably get one to fit. Not the RAF. About 78 different sizes and nothing to fit a tall human being!
Tailoring - we're chasing a dying specialization there - we need to get a bit more 21st Century on that and make it easier to source to give quicker turnaround. Some poor contracts written there.
I work in DE&S and face the same issues you do - I see several ranks up from me facing the same issues and that isn't exactly filling me with hope. Some things really are too big to change other than at a glacial pace.
Mr Chinecap,
as usual, it is nice to get an informed opinion from you rather than the usual round of rants 'why don't my trousers fit' etc.
However, just one small point provided some confusion:
Surely this should always have been the focus? and further, the only thing I see having changed (most flying kit not really having changed in the last 4-5 years) is the Fire Retardent S95 for aircrew.
The procurement and provision of FR S95 has been bungled so badly (agreed it is mainly at Command level) that most SH crews in theatre either look like they are auditioning for a job as a clown (the trousers so big they need a hula hoop and braces to keep them up) or a refugee, as their remaining set of FP are so ragged; yet there are never enough sets!
Perhaps you could shed some light on why, when this is our recently found focus, that the one item of aircrew kit that has changed, has been spooned up beyond belief.
(I'm not poking sticks here - I am generally interested and feel if I am likely to get a proper answer, it would be from you)
as usual, it is nice to get an informed opinion from you rather than the usual round of rants 'why don't my trousers fit' etc.
However, just one small point provided some confusion:
More pressure will be on the support of the flying, so effort is shifted there
The procurement and provision of FR S95 has been bungled so badly (agreed it is mainly at Command level) that most SH crews in theatre either look like they are auditioning for a job as a clown (the trousers so big they need a hula hoop and braces to keep them up) or a refugee, as their remaining set of FP are so ragged; yet there are never enough sets!
Perhaps you could shed some light on why, when this is our recently found focus, that the one item of aircrew kit that has changed, has been spooned up beyond belief.
(I'm not poking sticks here - I am generally interested and feel if I am likely to get a proper answer, it would be from you)
MGD
I concur mate. The FR CS95 is supposed to be so that we can blend in with the rest of the military if captured - the trouble is FR CS95 is a different colour altogether!
Also, the supply of it so poor that there are individuals in Afg that look more like the homeless than some of Her Majesty's finest...
LJ
I concur mate. The FR CS95 is supposed to be so that we can blend in with the rest of the military if captured - the trouble is FR CS95 is a different colour altogether!
Also, the supply of it so poor that there are individuals in Afg that look more like the homeless than some of Her Majesty's finest...
LJ
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You misunderstood me. The pressures to support flying I mentioned are upon the Supply org on a station. OC Logs provides the fuel, clothing, transport, furniture, spares, widgets, elastomerics etc etc and is pulled all ways by a very demanding customer base all the time. The main focus is, of course, flying - thus the dwindling manpower is spread thinly to cover all aspects but priority to the task in hand. This means the less critical areas (Clothing Stores etc) get reduced opening and lower manning. At a now-Typhoon base a few years ago I know the main Tech Stores and R&D averaged out at below 20% manned average for a year. There were better on the Sqn, but there were worse as well. They are not managing a Sqn - they are shuffling gaps to keep things moving.
Flying Clothing is beyond anything I've touched for 15 years - my last efforts were trying to get a legit reason why Air Stewards needed growbags and never really getting one - other than 'wanting to look like the rest of the crew'.
Flying Clothing is beyond anything I've touched for 15 years - my last efforts were trying to get a legit reason why Air Stewards needed growbags and never really getting one - other than 'wanting to look like the rest of the crew'.
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It sounds like not a lot has changed...
In 1962 I was on a waiting list for a cold weather jacket, the 'waiting' bit being for someone my size handing one in as he departed.
I once attended a dining-out in the mid-70s where the departing GD[P] stated the highlight of his career as being finding the Clothing Store actually open... As I recall the Clothing Store, without the aid of a computer in those days, had devised a devilishly clever system of never been open at a time anyone could attend.
In 1962 I was on a waiting list for a cold weather jacket, the 'waiting' bit being for someone my size handing one in as he departed.
I once attended a dining-out in the mid-70s where the departing GD[P] stated the highlight of his career as being finding the Clothing Store actually open... As I recall the Clothing Store, without the aid of a computer in those days, had devised a devilishly clever system of never been open at a time anyone could attend.
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Change is on the way to bring the supply of clothing into the 21st C. Soon you will be able to view a catalogue and order on-line for delivery to your work address. On-line ordering has been available at a number of units for a few years now and works reasonably well, the quality of what is supplied is of course an entirely different matter.
.... the quality of what is supplied is of course an entirely different matter
..... which brings to mind the 1960s (?) TV series Never Mind The Quality, Feel The Width, whilst
..... As I recall the Clothing Store, without the aid of a computer in those days, had devised a devilishly clever system of never been open at a time anyone could attend
..... recalls the old shout by NAAFI Managers on board ships as the roller shutter went up of "Canteen's open! Canteen's closed! Mind your fingers!" followed by a great crash as the shutter went straight down again!
Jack
..... which brings to mind the 1960s (?) TV series Never Mind The Quality, Feel The Width, whilst
..... As I recall the Clothing Store, without the aid of a computer in those days, had devised a devilishly clever system of never been open at a time anyone could attend
..... recalls the old shout by NAAFI Managers on board ships as the roller shutter went up of "Canteen's open! Canteen's closed! Mind your fingers!" followed by a great crash as the shutter went straight down again!
Jack
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how quaint that some people in the RAF still wear blues and greens....
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A Cautionary Tale
a spoof dit from Culdrose:
"A recent occurrence involving a MA transiting between the Medical Centre and Junior Rates Dining Hall has caused concern. Friday is traditionally ‘donut’ day for many departments and the morning standeasy at the sickbay is no exception to that routine. Following consumption of an entire pack of Tesco custard donuts by the rating, the strain across the rear seams of his No 4 trousers was significantly higher than design tolerances.
On crossing the car park the stitching ruptured in a sudden violent and loud manner which cracked two panes of glass at the Car Club and alarmed nearby construction workers who feared a mortar attack by terrorists from Camborne.
Consequently all personnel who can only fit in trousers larger than 88/104 waist/seat are to proceed from SLOPS (W16) to Mechanical Workshops (W18) when issued with replacement garments. They are then to don their newly acquired trousers and back into the Tyre Bay safety cage, (a reinforced structure designed to contain a bursting aircraft tyre should it fail during inflation post assembly). Once positioned they are to remain with hind quarters in the tyre cage for 45 minutes in order to proof test the structural integrity of the garment.
All Duty Tech Officers and Logisticians are to note CSOs CH 2 will be amended to reflect this procedure in due course".
"A recent occurrence involving a MA transiting between the Medical Centre and Junior Rates Dining Hall has caused concern. Friday is traditionally ‘donut’ day for many departments and the morning standeasy at the sickbay is no exception to that routine. Following consumption of an entire pack of Tesco custard donuts by the rating, the strain across the rear seams of his No 4 trousers was significantly higher than design tolerances.
On crossing the car park the stitching ruptured in a sudden violent and loud manner which cracked two panes of glass at the Car Club and alarmed nearby construction workers who feared a mortar attack by terrorists from Camborne.
Consequently all personnel who can only fit in trousers larger than 88/104 waist/seat are to proceed from SLOPS (W16) to Mechanical Workshops (W18) when issued with replacement garments. They are then to don their newly acquired trousers and back into the Tyre Bay safety cage, (a reinforced structure designed to contain a bursting aircraft tyre should it fail during inflation post assembly). Once positioned they are to remain with hind quarters in the tyre cage for 45 minutes in order to proof test the structural integrity of the garment.
All Duty Tech Officers and Logisticians are to note CSOs CH 2 will be amended to reflect this procedure in due course".
Last edited by sharasec; 11th Jun 2010 at 12:56.
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Pull up a Sandbag
As a bit of light relief, I would like to tell you what it was like for us erks in the late 60's early 70's. When I joined on a 3yr apprenticeship, (standby for the daggers) I had a clothing allowance. £8.10.0 per year if memory serves. At the end of the year any unexpended allowance was added to your pay chit. So scruffy uniforms were the name of the game to help save some money. Also you were issued with ALL you needed to wear including RAF Blue striped pyjamas and airtex boxers, essential to prevent chaffing of those still tender inner thighs. The best blue had moved on to a decent material, but at £23 wow betide you if ruined that. The aforementioned T63. I used to wear that as a working blue, as you could, and it lasted well into the 80's before it rotted. So all in all most of the clothing was of good quality, if not fashionable or smart.
Then as I was training to become aircrew in the early 70's, we were shown a proposed new uniform that was made of light cotton, I assume, washable material with a wind cheater jacket that looked like those worn by the US Navy and therefore very smart. The only question was the colour, powder blue! By the time it was issued, the material had changed to RAF Blue, understandable, but the material was now dry cleanable only heavy and the smart jacket was now like those worn by the RAC! At least a decent woolly pulley soon followed with a crew neck.
Whoever designed the new uniform had obviously been overruled by our lords and masters as to colour and material so it was still a hotch potch. Lets be honest we were a real rag bag in the 70's, you could be seen wearing old best blues, hairy blues, battle dress made of serge if you could afford the tailoring. At least the new trousers and jumpers smartened things up, mind you the smart crew neck was replaced with girly 'V' neck allegedly due to ties not being visible. Dont mention brevets!!
Slowly the uniforms have become smarter more uniform if the quality has suffered. What I could never understand is why whenever I saw a US serviceman his uniforms so much smarter and of much better quality. Cost I know came into it, but they were always much smarter and their uniforms never seemed to change in style, they even adopted the woolly pulley. Take short sleeve shirts for instance. Why were the US Navy shirts always smart, even on the fat blokes, the only answer I could come up with was they were designed to be worn without ties and hence the collar laid flat and looked smart, ours on the other hand, were merely the long sleeve shirt with the arms cut off. A small point but it makes a difference. Still better than wearing your sleeves rolled up and your tie tucked in between the 2nd and 3rd button.
As for sizing, during my aircrew training I had to go to the Airmed centre at Farnborough, they measured me, bit of a short arse you see, and announced that since WWII torsoes had got shorter and legs had got longer and so that is why the collar might fit but the sleeves of your shirt would reach your knees. Or maybe you were just fat.
There are lots of tales of course, we'll add some if the thread becomes too heavy.
Why do I add this, because those running the show joined up when I did or soon after and their ideas are invariably influenced by their early days.
Nothing changes, the system prevails.
Then as I was training to become aircrew in the early 70's, we were shown a proposed new uniform that was made of light cotton, I assume, washable material with a wind cheater jacket that looked like those worn by the US Navy and therefore very smart. The only question was the colour, powder blue! By the time it was issued, the material had changed to RAF Blue, understandable, but the material was now dry cleanable only heavy and the smart jacket was now like those worn by the RAC! At least a decent woolly pulley soon followed with a crew neck.
Whoever designed the new uniform had obviously been overruled by our lords and masters as to colour and material so it was still a hotch potch. Lets be honest we were a real rag bag in the 70's, you could be seen wearing old best blues, hairy blues, battle dress made of serge if you could afford the tailoring. At least the new trousers and jumpers smartened things up, mind you the smart crew neck was replaced with girly 'V' neck allegedly due to ties not being visible. Dont mention brevets!!
Slowly the uniforms have become smarter more uniform if the quality has suffered. What I could never understand is why whenever I saw a US serviceman his uniforms so much smarter and of much better quality. Cost I know came into it, but they were always much smarter and their uniforms never seemed to change in style, they even adopted the woolly pulley. Take short sleeve shirts for instance. Why were the US Navy shirts always smart, even on the fat blokes, the only answer I could come up with was they were designed to be worn without ties and hence the collar laid flat and looked smart, ours on the other hand, were merely the long sleeve shirt with the arms cut off. A small point but it makes a difference. Still better than wearing your sleeves rolled up and your tie tucked in between the 2nd and 3rd button.
As for sizing, during my aircrew training I had to go to the Airmed centre at Farnborough, they measured me, bit of a short arse you see, and announced that since WWII torsoes had got shorter and legs had got longer and so that is why the collar might fit but the sleeves of your shirt would reach your knees. Or maybe you were just fat.
There are lots of tales of course, we'll add some if the thread becomes too heavy.
Why do I add this, because those running the show joined up when I did or soon after and their ideas are invariably influenced by their early days.
Nothing changes, the system prevails.
