Conservative `Armed Forces Manifesto`
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What ridiculous nonsense that we 'need' Iraq and Afghanistan'!!!
Yes our purpose is to do our job, but we don't need to constantly have a war to exist - that would truly make us a self licking lollipop, always looking for a fight to prove we're needed.
Our purpose is to defend the UK, secondarily to that we action UK foreign policy.
What we need is to be able to do the first effectively and without doubt.
I think there is no place in the modern military for anyone who could be so stupid as to say 'we need a war, it's our job' , bloody cretin.
Yes our purpose is to do our job, but we don't need to constantly have a war to exist - that would truly make us a self licking lollipop, always looking for a fight to prove we're needed.
Our purpose is to defend the UK, secondarily to that we action UK foreign policy.
What we need is to be able to do the first effectively and without doubt.
I think there is no place in the modern military for anyone who could be so stupid as to say 'we need a war, it's our job' , bloody cretin.
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The last year that did not see a British Military Fatality on Active Service was 1968 - a year that the originator of this thread (and I) spent in the sandpits of the Middle East.
Every year since then the Armed Forces of the Crown have had to do more with less.
The last year that did not see a British Military Fatality on Active Service was 1968 - a year that the originator of this thread (and I) spent in the sandpits of the Middle East.
Every year since then the Armed Forces of the Crown have had to do more with less.
Last edited by cazatou; 26th Apr 2010 at 13:32.
Anything in the document of ensuring families can live in decent accomodation after all who was it that flogged it off. Frankly some of it is best pulled down and rebuilt and then pay BG to look after servicing it.
None of them are worthy of a vote but vote I shall as always even if I spoil it.
None of them are worthy of a vote but vote I shall as always even if I spoil it.
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sikeano
The answer to your question is May 1940 - but we stopped doing so after Churchill and Attlee had left Office. They, of course, both had Combat experience.
The answer to your question is May 1940 - but we stopped doing so after Churchill and Attlee had left Office. They, of course, both had Combat experience.
Why single out Churchill and Attlee?
Only illness or other legit excuses prevented Wilson and Home from active service, and apart from them, every postwar PM up to Thatcher 'got some in' - Eden and MacMillan with particular distinction on the Western Front.
"During the First World War, Eden served with the 21st (Yeoman Rifles) Battalion of the King's Royal Rifle Corps, and reached the rank of captain. He received a Military Cross, and at the age of twenty-one became the youngest brigade-major in the British Army. At a conference in the early 1930s, he and Adolf Hitler observed that they had probably fought on opposite sides of the trenches in the Ypres sector."
"Macmillan served with distinction as a captain in the Grenadier Guards during the war, and was wounded on three occasions. During the Battle of the Somme, he spent an entire day wounded and lying in a slit trench with a bullet in his pelvis, reading the classical Greek playwright Aeschylus in the original language."
"Heath spent the winter of 1939-40 on a debating tour of the United States before being called up, and early in 1941 was commissioned in the Royal Artillery. During World War II he initially served with heavy anti-aircraft guns around Liverpool (which suffered heavy German bombing in May 1941) and by early 1942 was regimental adjutant, with the rank of Captain. Later, now a Major commanding a battery of his own, he provided artillery support in the North-West Europe Campaign of 1944-1945.
He later remarked that, although he did not personally kill anybody, as the British forces advanced he saw the devastation caused by his unit's artillery bombardments. In September 1945 he commanded a firing squad to execute a Polish soldier convicted of rape and murder, a fact that he did not reveal until his memoirs were published in 1998."
"Callaghan joined the Royal Navy Volunteer Reserve as an Ordinary Seaman in World War II from 1942 where he served in the East Indies Fleet and was promoted to the rank of Lieutenant in April 1944.[3] While training for his promotion, his medical examination revealed that he was suffering from tuberculosis and was admitted to the Royal Naval Hospital Haslar in Gosport near Portsmouth. After he recovered, he was discharged and assigned to duties with the Admiralty in Whitehall."
I think the rot set in under Wilson - before him, it's hard to contest the view that politicians (of all colours) tended to enter politics for benevolent and altruistic reasons, after him, it's hard to see any major UK politicians as being anything other than self-serving and selfish.
As to the Tories, recent history would seem to show that they will talk the talk, that they will do a reasonable job at looking after those servicemen who remain in service, but will cut force structure and procurement more fiercely and more dramatically than Labour.
Only illness or other legit excuses prevented Wilson and Home from active service, and apart from them, every postwar PM up to Thatcher 'got some in' - Eden and MacMillan with particular distinction on the Western Front.
"During the First World War, Eden served with the 21st (Yeoman Rifles) Battalion of the King's Royal Rifle Corps, and reached the rank of captain. He received a Military Cross, and at the age of twenty-one became the youngest brigade-major in the British Army. At a conference in the early 1930s, he and Adolf Hitler observed that they had probably fought on opposite sides of the trenches in the Ypres sector."
"Macmillan served with distinction as a captain in the Grenadier Guards during the war, and was wounded on three occasions. During the Battle of the Somme, he spent an entire day wounded and lying in a slit trench with a bullet in his pelvis, reading the classical Greek playwright Aeschylus in the original language."
"Heath spent the winter of 1939-40 on a debating tour of the United States before being called up, and early in 1941 was commissioned in the Royal Artillery. During World War II he initially served with heavy anti-aircraft guns around Liverpool (which suffered heavy German bombing in May 1941) and by early 1942 was regimental adjutant, with the rank of Captain. Later, now a Major commanding a battery of his own, he provided artillery support in the North-West Europe Campaign of 1944-1945.
He later remarked that, although he did not personally kill anybody, as the British forces advanced he saw the devastation caused by his unit's artillery bombardments. In September 1945 he commanded a firing squad to execute a Polish soldier convicted of rape and murder, a fact that he did not reveal until his memoirs were published in 1998."
"Callaghan joined the Royal Navy Volunteer Reserve as an Ordinary Seaman in World War II from 1942 where he served in the East Indies Fleet and was promoted to the rank of Lieutenant in April 1944.[3] While training for his promotion, his medical examination revealed that he was suffering from tuberculosis and was admitted to the Royal Naval Hospital Haslar in Gosport near Portsmouth. After he recovered, he was discharged and assigned to duties with the Admiralty in Whitehall."
I think the rot set in under Wilson - before him, it's hard to contest the view that politicians (of all colours) tended to enter politics for benevolent and altruistic reasons, after him, it's hard to see any major UK politicians as being anything other than self-serving and selfish.
As to the Tories, recent history would seem to show that they will talk the talk, that they will do a reasonable job at looking after those servicemen who remain in service, but will cut force structure and procurement more fiercely and more dramatically than Labour.
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Wander00. I believe that was the same Denis Healey who stated publicly, in a wireless interview, that he would not have commanded a nuclear retaliation when he was Wilson’s 2IC. It’s also quoted here (OK, it’s the bloody Mail); HMS Apocalypse: Deep in the Atlantic, a submarine waits on alert with nuclear missiles that could end the world..... | Mail Online
A seeming drawback of politicians who’ve “done a bit” is that the horrors they remember can make them border on pacificism. It has been argued in the past that Gen Montgomery was inclined to be overcautious in the “second lot” due his butcher’s bill memories of the “first lot”
On balance, though, I’m inclined to prefer an ex serviceman in Parliament than some career political activist or overly gobby solicitor
If Wilson and Downing Street had been destroyed by a bolt-from-the-blue, Healey would have had to take the retaliation decision.
What would he have done?
Lord Healey: 'I would not have retaliated'
Sitting in his sun-filled conservatory, overlooking the South Downs, he was clear: he would not have retaliated. ‘I would have said that there is no reason for doing something like that. Because most of the people you kill would be innocent civilians.’
What would he have done?
Lord Healey: 'I would not have retaliated'
Sitting in his sun-filled conservatory, overlooking the South Downs, he was clear: he would not have retaliated. ‘I would have said that there is no reason for doing something like that. Because most of the people you kill would be innocent civilians.’
A seeming drawback of politicians who’ve “done a bit” is that the horrors they remember can make them border on pacificism. It has been argued in the past that Gen Montgomery was inclined to be overcautious in the “second lot” due his butcher’s bill memories of the “first lot”
On balance, though, I’m inclined to prefer an ex serviceman in Parliament than some career political activist or overly gobby solicitor
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Cazatou,
That's an interesting and slightly sad statistic. I should be clear, I've spent a lot of time on ops and generally on balance think what I've been involved in has been worthwhile, I simply feel that those who say such glib comments as 'we need afghanistan to justify us/its our job' are stupid. In an ideal world simply being would be doing our job as a deterrent to aggressors. As you so adroitly pointed out, we definitely don't live in an ideal world, an unpleasant things need to be done. That said, I would happily give up my job if things changed meaning no more British servicemen needed to die or be injured unnecessarily - and I would NEVER quote the need for a war as a justification for my existence.
I wonder if British forces hadn't committed to so many 'peace-keeping' etc type missions since the end of the cold war, whether we would be anything like the size we are today, or if we would already be a small defense force. Alternatively of course, perhaps the cost of all these ops has in a way forced some shrinkage.
Musings aside, it will be a much better day when we are not required to do anything other than be ready - I hope it isnt another 42 years away.
That's an interesting and slightly sad statistic. I should be clear, I've spent a lot of time on ops and generally on balance think what I've been involved in has been worthwhile, I simply feel that those who say such glib comments as 'we need afghanistan to justify us/its our job' are stupid. In an ideal world simply being would be doing our job as a deterrent to aggressors. As you so adroitly pointed out, we definitely don't live in an ideal world, an unpleasant things need to be done. That said, I would happily give up my job if things changed meaning no more British servicemen needed to die or be injured unnecessarily - and I would NEVER quote the need for a war as a justification for my existence.
I wonder if British forces hadn't committed to so many 'peace-keeping' etc type missions since the end of the cold war, whether we would be anything like the size we are today, or if we would already be a small defense force. Alternatively of course, perhaps the cost of all these ops has in a way forced some shrinkage.
Musings aside, it will be a much better day when we are not required to do anything other than be ready - I hope it isnt another 42 years away.
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Jackonicko
I referred to Churchill and Attlee as they were Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister in a Coalition Government for 5 long years of War between 1940 and 1945. At no time during that period could they have been accused of placing Party before any other consideration.
One might also consider that Churchill had a far greater experience of such matters than both pevious and later incumbents. He had trekked with the Malakand Field Force, charged with the 21st Lancers at Omdurman; had been captured by, and escaped from, the Boers during the South African War and subsequently fought against them (with a price on his head) whilst serving in the Imperial Light Horse.
He subsequently became 1st Lord of the Admiralty and later in WW1 fought on the Western Front as a Battalion Commander before becoming Minister of Munitions and subsequently Secretary of State for War.
Attlee, as you may know, was often referred to by his supporters simply as "The Major"; recalling his service in WW1 with the South Lancashire Regiment.
Churchill and Attlee proclaimed for all to see the unification of ideals and the coordination that portrayed the British War effort between 1940 and 1945.
I referred to Churchill and Attlee as they were Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister in a Coalition Government for 5 long years of War between 1940 and 1945. At no time during that period could they have been accused of placing Party before any other consideration.
One might also consider that Churchill had a far greater experience of such matters than both pevious and later incumbents. He had trekked with the Malakand Field Force, charged with the 21st Lancers at Omdurman; had been captured by, and escaped from, the Boers during the South African War and subsequently fought against them (with a price on his head) whilst serving in the Imperial Light Horse.
He subsequently became 1st Lord of the Admiralty and later in WW1 fought on the Western Front as a Battalion Commander before becoming Minister of Munitions and subsequently Secretary of State for War.
Attlee, as you may know, was often referred to by his supporters simply as "The Major"; recalling his service in WW1 with the South Lancashire Regiment.
Churchill and Attlee proclaimed for all to see the unification of ideals and the coordination that portrayed the British War effort between 1940 and 1945.
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UK
Whatever your political affiliation, you have to be disgusted that Labour can win an election with this little red on the map. Whoever wins, I really hope there's some electoral reform. How can you finish 3rd and win? Brown is currently our unelected Prime Minister. If he musters a majority from 2nd / 3rd place then that's hardly a mandate either.
It also needs to be said that much of the blue area is sparsely populated, while some of the small red splotches are our biggest and most populous cities.
Unless we invent a new form of suffrage, based on one acre one vote, it's an irrelevant map.
Unless we invent a new form of suffrage, based on one acre one vote, it's an irrelevant map.
