RAF Types only - Which way to jump?
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I don't know what everyone's getting so worked up about. The MOD isn't about to buy new uniforms for several thousand people - after all, the Army have enough different uniforms as it is!
It's much more likely that we'll see a gradual coming together with the RAF and RN becoming more like regiments within the Army. Lets see, we could start by having a joint Armed Forces Act - er, got that already, sorry. Then we could move onto having a joint administration system - er, sorry, got that already too.
OK, so we could also combine training wherever possible - er, sorry, I forgot, we're already doing that with the Defence Training Review.
Finally, we could have a single HQ that combined Land, Air and Fleet - now you're talking - that would cut several hundred, perhaps even a few thousand, very senior posts across all three Services. Looks like that's the next step to me.
It's much more likely that we'll see a gradual coming together with the RAF and RN becoming more like regiments within the Army. Lets see, we could start by having a joint Armed Forces Act - er, got that already, sorry. Then we could move onto having a joint administration system - er, sorry, got that already too.
OK, so we could also combine training wherever possible - er, sorry, I forgot, we're already doing that with the Defence Training Review.
Finally, we could have a single HQ that combined Land, Air and Fleet - now you're talking - that would cut several hundred, perhaps even a few thousand, very senior posts across all three Services. Looks like that's the next step to me.
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I hate to say it, but the RAF - if we have to lose one of the three, would be the obvious choice. Give everything maritime associated (MRA4 etc.) to the navy. Give all the fighters and air transport to the Army - after all, they're the ones that actually use it and need it. They'd be left with the job of protecting the UK's air defence - not too sure how they'd cope with that?
Give all the fighters and air transport to the Army - after all, they're the ones that actually use it and need it. They'd be left with the job of protecting the UK's air defence - not too sure how they'd cope with that?
As far as the Army is concerned, air power is all about UAVs to give an FMV feed and AH, with a small nod to SH when they need re-supplying or extracting from some god-forsaken hole.
From my experience, the Army are one of the most parochial and narrow minded organisations I have ever seen. Not only do they have no grasp of anything outside of their immediate AO, they rarely seem to have much more of a clue outside of their own Regiment or Corps.
If you want the air defence of the UK and any long range offensive or AT capability to be reduced to UAVs and AH/SH - essentially a purely tactical force capable of no more than defending and holding an AO half the size of Wales, then crack on, give it all to the Army.
If you want to retain a credible air and space (admittedly still embryonic in the UK) capability that can service a wide range of theatre and tactical needs, then retaining a credible independent air arm is a no-brainer.
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Aside from a few posts, there's a lot of willy waving and uninformed one-upmanship on here, particularly as nothing was really said by CDS.
I thought we were all on the same team but it seems that Crab Air is too self-important to join either of the other two, and they don't want them either.
As has already been pointed out, it's pretty much already there, with joint admin and supply systems etc. The only thing that differs, at the moment, is the names and the non-combat uniforms.
There's a lot of historical sentiment and loyalty to overcome before anything serious can be done, I think.
I thought we were all on the same team but it seems that Crab Air is too self-important to join either of the other two, and they don't want them either.
As has already been pointed out, it's pretty much already there, with joint admin and supply systems etc. The only thing that differs, at the moment, is the names and the non-combat uniforms.
There's a lot of historical sentiment and loyalty to overcome before anything serious can be done, I think.
Vecvechookattack. Fair point.
But if we believe that Afghanistan is the only game in town, that defence of the homeland is no longer a robust enough argument for the retention of various capabilities, and now that the Harriers are no longer playing in theatre and the RM are doing the same role as army infantry - what does the RN bring to the party to justify its retention as an independent force?
Two's in - if you want to fly around Helmand in something like that, please be my guest. But I seriously doubt anyone with half an ounce of sense would sign off the risk mitigation for it, and the insurance companies would make it prohibitively expensive for the charter companies to operate in theatre.
Fat Chris - and what if we were fighting an air centric campaign? It could happen down the line you never know. Would we be seeing the same levels of support for disbanding the Army and transfering the resultant resources to the RAF?
But if we believe that Afghanistan is the only game in town, that defence of the homeland is no longer a robust enough argument for the retention of various capabilities, and now that the Harriers are no longer playing in theatre and the RM are doing the same role as army infantry - what does the RN bring to the party to justify its retention as an independent force?
Two's in - if you want to fly around Helmand in something like that, please be my guest. But I seriously doubt anyone with half an ounce of sense would sign off the risk mitigation for it, and the insurance companies would make it prohibitively expensive for the charter companies to operate in theatre.
Fat Chris - and what if we were fighting an air centric campaign? It could happen down the line you never know. Would we be seeing the same levels of support for disbanding the Army and transfering the resultant resources to the RAF?
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I would certainly agree that Afghanistan is not really the RN's bag but we do contribute in a small way. We currently have 240 personnel in Afghan as well as 4 Helicopter Squadrons. Agreed, it may not be many but if you were to withdraw the RN from Afghan then those helicopters and medics and SF etc etc would have to be found from somewhere else.
What we need to remember is that the British Armed Forces are small by comparison across the world. I seem to recall that in size of numbers we are No 26 or 27th largest Armed Force.... Thats right.....tiny countries such as Sri Lanka, Egypt, Burma have more soldiers, airmen and sailors than we do and yet when it comes to spending we are 3rd...?
But to answer the question. What does the RN bring to the party...?
This
What we need to remember is that the British Armed Forces are small by comparison across the world. I seem to recall that in size of numbers we are No 26 or 27th largest Armed Force.... Thats right.....tiny countries such as Sri Lanka, Egypt, Burma have more soldiers, airmen and sailors than we do and yet when it comes to spending we are 3rd...?
But to answer the question. What does the RN bring to the party...?
This
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Joint services
Further to any possible amalgamation of the RAF within the RN, some of us were on 360 Sqd Canberra T17's, half Navy , half RAF, seemed to work ok whilst I was there (engine fitter, trade SNCO) would it be the same or would the RAF have to wear dark blue & grow beards ? Paul H, Bicester.
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Melch,
When was the last time we gained air superiority - not took it over from the US?
The Army won't want the RAF FW, the Navy are much better than them so could have it. They would swallow the SH easily and have a GREAT working relationship already - not a problem as we all seem to be in a fashionable sand colour and the SH force have been seen in green once in a while.
The reason they 'seem' parochial about small areas is that’s all they can manage - ON FOOT, it is a traditional thing you know (probably not for a force so young), they don’t do everything in vehicles like other 'ground forces'.
Oh yes, UK AD - not seen the Danish jumping the horizon recently and the US can easily do that for us anyway - get rid and save.
Vev – not always agreed with you but fair play.
When was the last time we gained air superiority - not took it over from the US?
The Army won't want the RAF FW, the Navy are much better than them so could have it. They would swallow the SH easily and have a GREAT working relationship already - not a problem as we all seem to be in a fashionable sand colour and the SH force have been seen in green once in a while.
The reason they 'seem' parochial about small areas is that’s all they can manage - ON FOOT, it is a traditional thing you know (probably not for a force so young), they don’t do everything in vehicles like other 'ground forces'.
Oh yes, UK AD - not seen the Danish jumping the horizon recently and the US can easily do that for us anyway - get rid and save.
Vev – not always agreed with you but fair play.
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"Oh yes, UK AD - not seen the Danish jumping the horizon recently and the US can easily do that for us anyway - get rid and save."
what if they decide not to, just ask iceland,
on that basis you may as well scrap the entire forces
the problem of getting a quart sized effect out of a pint pot sized budget will not be solved by sacking some senior neddies and making every one wear the same coloured uniform!
what if they decide not to, just ask iceland,
on that basis you may as well scrap the entire forces
the problem of getting a quart sized effect out of a pint pot sized budget will not be solved by sacking some senior neddies and making every one wear the same coloured uniform!
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Melchie, I think that you misunderstand me. I'm not fussed what colour my uniform is, being in the forces is a state of mind, not a state of dress.
I'm sure that we would make the best of what mess we are in, regardless of the type of campaign we are engaged in. After all, isn't it typically British to make sure that we're the underdogs at the start of any conflict and make the job as difficult as it possibly can be, in order that we can sit back afterwards and reminisce about how we overcame this and that, and still came out on top?
I'm sure that we would make the best of what mess we are in, regardless of the type of campaign we are engaged in. After all, isn't it typically British to make sure that we're the underdogs at the start of any conflict and make the job as difficult as it possibly can be, in order that we can sit back afterwards and reminisce about how we overcame this and that, and still came out on top?
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Deli,
I think the Army ADs can do the same job, can't they? I think the days of the Empire are over so a bit of realism is called for. Large scale or medium/small/small non enduring? Don't need the worlds largest AD force for the latter - more probable!
PS 2 out of 3 are united - and don't set higher ranks on meetings to win an argument - please prove me wrong if possible!
I think the Army ADs can do the same job, can't they? I think the days of the Empire are over so a bit of realism is called for. Large scale or medium/small/small non enduring? Don't need the worlds largest AD force for the latter - more probable!
PS 2 out of 3 are united - and don't set higher ranks on meetings to win an argument - please prove me wrong if possible!
I'm not fussed what colour my uniform is, being in the forces is a state of mind, not a state of dress.
) you need to drive ships, be a warfare officer etc - not to be an aviator (or at least certainly not FW). How quickly have the various 1SL's sold out the SHAR and the RN element of JFH (he didn't put up much of a fight, lets be honest). And there will need to be a lot of commission resignations amongst the RW if it goes to the Army (unless you want one tour flying then tour after tour as G1, G3, G7, G9 etc) 
360 Sqd Canberra T17's
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No Sorry I must not have made myself clear. With the 2 new boats, the Navy can have all the FW (as I said before) park one each end of the UK and jobs a good un. All they will have to do is look out for the Ruskies - or are we years past that????
HVM can do the middle bit until the Navy turn up - which they will, a seed change.
By a second class citizen do we mean the Navy and the Army don't expect every one else to run around after them? I must ask all the Admirals and Generals with wings what they think of that. Just because you have been given wings doesn't make you better than the others. So many RAF pilots think it is funny asking ATC which pilots course they failed? So funny!
HVM can do the middle bit until the Navy turn up - which they will, a seed change.
By a second class citizen do we mean the Navy and the Army don't expect every one else to run around after them? I must ask all the Admirals and Generals with wings what they think of that. Just because you have been given wings doesn't make you better than the others. So many RAF pilots think it is funny asking ATC which pilots course they failed? So funny!
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The reason I do not seeing it working is budgetary,the Army as is the Navy are oriented to their specialist skills and budgets for those.
In these days of tightening budgets and future projects being slashed, to pass over the RAF budget and their planned aquisitions will see a reduction in the planned developments as funds are redirected by the Army or Navy to bolster their threatened future developments and they will argue down the need for the planned Air power developments as no longer needed, to the detriment of this countries Airpower..
On a Side note, IF 2 are indeed better than 3 as it cuts down on both costs, bureaucracy and duplication of facilities etc
Pray tell me why we have a Parliament, The Welsh Assembly. the Irish Assembly and the Scottish Assembly all Spending Billions on doing what was previously done by one Parliament with 4 times the Bureaucratic pen pushers, especially as the EU now dictates our destiny...
Just a thought, recentralise that!!!!!!!!!
In these days of tightening budgets and future projects being slashed, to pass over the RAF budget and their planned aquisitions will see a reduction in the planned developments as funds are redirected by the Army or Navy to bolster their threatened future developments and they will argue down the need for the planned Air power developments as no longer needed, to the detriment of this countries Airpower..
On a Side note, IF 2 are indeed better than 3 as it cuts down on both costs, bureaucracy and duplication of facilities etc
Pray tell me why we have a Parliament, The Welsh Assembly. the Irish Assembly and the Scottish Assembly all Spending Billions on doing what was previously done by one Parliament with 4 times the Bureaucratic pen pushers, especially as the EU now dictates our destiny...
Just a thought, recentralise that!!!!!!!!!