Lyneham Closure, Westminster Hall Debate 6 Jan 2010
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Anyway, with an Airbus-only transport fleet of 9 A330s and 20-ish A400s I would not be able to argue against a single-base policy.
What about the 24 C130Js and 8(9) C17s then? (Pre-SDSR figures)
And don't count on 9 A330s and any A400Ms surviving the cull that is about to come our way.
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What about the 24 C130Js and 8(9) C17s then? (Pre-SDSR figures)
And don't count on 9 A330s and any A400Ms surviving the cull that is about to come our way.
And don't count on 9 A330s and any A400Ms surviving the cull that is about to come our way.
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I wouldn't underestimate Fox's willingness to buy off the shelf from the US and shake up the UK Defence Industry. He has little confidence in MoD procurement.
One thing is for certain, one of the most inspired decisions in recent years was the timely leasing of the C17, which was deployed on Ops almost overnight. Airbus is totally unproven in the military field and Fox wants more bang for the money. Also worth noting that for a few hours last year a decision was taken (allegedly) by John Hutton to scrap A400M and buy considerably more C17 and Js. I bet the RAF now wished that decision had gone ahead, (Hutton resigned the next day), but it does underline where the sentiment lies in the RAF.
I would have had a lot more respect for Elliott if he had spent his undoubted abilities building a cogent and powerful argument to retain RAF Lyneham as an RAF Base for a significantly expanded fleet of J Hercs/A400M. We need street fighters at the highest levels now, as it is very clear that Treasury officials are knocking at the door of the ever obliging armed forces, with a very sharp butchers knife. The last thing we need is our own officers doing their dirty work for them.
One thing is for certain, one of the most inspired decisions in recent years was the timely leasing of the C17, which was deployed on Ops almost overnight. Airbus is totally unproven in the military field and Fox wants more bang for the money. Also worth noting that for a few hours last year a decision was taken (allegedly) by John Hutton to scrap A400M and buy considerably more C17 and Js. I bet the RAF now wished that decision had gone ahead, (Hutton resigned the next day), but it does underline where the sentiment lies in the RAF.
I would have had a lot more respect for Elliott if he had spent his undoubted abilities building a cogent and powerful argument to retain RAF Lyneham as an RAF Base for a significantly expanded fleet of J Hercs/A400M. We need street fighters at the highest levels now, as it is very clear that Treasury officials are knocking at the door of the ever obliging armed forces, with a very sharp butchers knife. The last thing we need is our own officers doing their dirty work for them.
Last edited by nigegilb; 14th Aug 2010 at 11:00.
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All fair points.
I also suspect that Fox's unpopularity in Downing Street and lack of allies means that he doesn't have the clout to make decisions which impact outside his department.
I also suspect that Fox's unpopularity in Downing Street and lack of allies means that he doesn't have the clout to make decisions which impact outside his department.
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Nige,
And here is a touch of irony for you...
And here is a touch of irony for you...
One thing is for certain, one of the most inspired decisions in recent years was the timely leasing of the C17, which was deployed on Ops almost overnight.
Promoted to Wg Cdr in 1996, he (Elliott)took up an appointment in the Directorate of Air Plans with responsibility for all Air Transport and Air Refuelling aircraft. This tour coincided with the Strategic Defence Review during which he sat on the Strategic Lift Working Gp – a team whose recommendations were to subsequently result in the introduction to service of the C-17 aircraft.
Nige,
If Lyneham were to have been the base for an expanded fleet of C130Js and A400, thereby justifying it's existence, that would have left the much larger Brize as home to just 9 A330s and 7 C17s. Having a whole airfield to house a mere 16 aircraft would have been even more barking!
There were simply not enough eggs to fill 2 baskets.
Even before the treatened cuts from SDSR closing Lyneham was proved to make financial sense. With what may lie around the corner, those who call for Lyneham to remain open are rather akin to the Flat Earth Society.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if The Herks don't even make the move to Brize at all, it may be that the fleet is binned as Lyneham shuts, thereby saving the cost of moving them down the road.
as a final cheery thought I'd say that unless you're on C 17s at the moment, start looking very carefully at redundancy packages.
If Lyneham were to have been the base for an expanded fleet of C130Js and A400, thereby justifying it's existence, that would have left the much larger Brize as home to just 9 A330s and 7 C17s. Having a whole airfield to house a mere 16 aircraft would have been even more barking!
There were simply not enough eggs to fill 2 baskets.
Even before the treatened cuts from SDSR closing Lyneham was proved to make financial sense. With what may lie around the corner, those who call for Lyneham to remain open are rather akin to the Flat Earth Society.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if The Herks don't even make the move to Brize at all, it may be that the fleet is binned as Lyneham shuts, thereby saving the cost of moving them down the road.
as a final cheery thought I'd say that unless you're on C 17s at the moment, start looking very carefully at redundancy packages.
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Lyneham is just an airfeild with a short runway!
Yes is has 2 of them, but A400 c-17s and A330's would need them both end to end. Lyneham has done sterling work for years but its time has past, for AT at least. Extending the runway there is posible i suppose if you flatten half the local community or build some sort of stilted runway!!
Yes is has 2 of them, but A400 c-17s and A330's would need them both end to end. Lyneham has done sterling work for years but its time has past, for AT at least. Extending the runway there is posible i suppose if you flatten half the local community or build some sort of stilted runway!!
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AF, from my understanding Hutton agreed to purchase 15 C17s last year and a further 10 Js, more than enough to justify both airfields remaining open.
Interesting that the savings supposedly available by the closure of Lyneham are simply not being realised. It never did make sense to move very expensive simulators 50 miles up the road did it? So now we hear the argument for binning J Hercs mid life. A case of tail wagging the dog? And I should consider myself a flat earther? When do you think A400M will provide the same kind of capability as Hercules? Just as calls are growing in the States for a slow down in the planned withdrawal in Afghanistan.
I remember watching the very first C17s land at Bagram airfield, Afg and chatting with the wide eyed crews and laughing with them at the thought that they had barely been taught how to fly it and the were doing night landings in Afg. I can guarantee that won't happen with A400M.
Interesting that the savings supposedly available by the closure of Lyneham are simply not being realised. It never did make sense to move very expensive simulators 50 miles up the road did it? So now we hear the argument for binning J Hercs mid life. A case of tail wagging the dog? And I should consider myself a flat earther? When do you think A400M will provide the same kind of capability as Hercules? Just as calls are growing in the States for a slow down in the planned withdrawal in Afghanistan.
I remember watching the very first C17s land at Bagram airfield, Afg and chatting with the wide eyed crews and laughing with them at the thought that they had barely been taught how to fly it and the were doing night landings in Afg. I can guarantee that won't happen with A400M.
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I wouldn't be at all surprised if The Herks don't even make the move to Brize at all, it may be that the fleet is binned as Lyneham shuts, thereby saving the cost of moving them down the road.
as a final cheery thought I'd say that unless you're on C 17s at the moment, start looking very carefully at redundancy packages.
as a final cheery thought I'd say that unless you're on C 17s at the moment, start looking very carefully at redundancy packages.
Everything right now hinges on Afg. We can't get out tomorrow as we'd like to and the last thing mentioned at high levels was getting out in 5 years or so. So with C130J and C17 being as heavily tasked in Afg as they are right now, with both doing hub and spoke, why would we bin the spoke ac and not the hub ac?
So, lets assume the C130 and C17 survive SDSR up until a 2015 withdrawal. This will probably coincide with the A400M arriving and means we can then sell the C130Js before they're completely knackered.
All the crews would then transfer to the A400M, and we could either maintain the C17 fleet at its current level or perhaps reduce it and recoup some costs that the A400M has sucked up. This, spookily being 5 years away would also coincide with another SDR to make sure our post Afg forces are correctly equipped to do whatever government is then in power wants us to do.
So....I would tactfully suggest that VC10 and Tristar are more likely to go in the short term than C130J. Please note that I'm not trying to be precious or start an intra AT weeing contest, this is just how i see things panning out in the event that a little common sense is applied in the SDSR
You're right, this whole thing is unsubstantiated rumour. But....it would appear from what was leaked to the telegraph last week that pretty much every platform is being looked at in the SDSR process and there are no sacred cows. You are right of course, C17 and C130J are both doing sterling work at the moment and one would hope that would keep the wolf from the Herk's door for a few years at least.
Going back to the original topic of this thread though, early disposal of the C130 may provide a stay of execution for Lyneham, albeit only for a few years. I mean it would be pointless moving all the stuff, building all the ....stuff etc etc if you would only get a few years use out of it before the Euro truck replaces the whole thing.
My comment on redundancies was not intended to provoke a panic, but if GR4 and one or two AT fleets were to disappear in the next 2-3 years, that would mean a lot of pilots out there chasing not many cockpits. Not to mention navs and air engineers.
Anyway, I'm sure it's nothing to worry about. Me, I'm off to the pub to see who else I can cheer up.
Going back to the original topic of this thread though, early disposal of the C130 may provide a stay of execution for Lyneham, albeit only for a few years. I mean it would be pointless moving all the stuff, building all the ....stuff etc etc if you would only get a few years use out of it before the Euro truck replaces the whole thing.
My comment on redundancies was not intended to provoke a panic, but if GR4 and one or two AT fleets were to disappear in the next 2-3 years, that would mean a lot of pilots out there chasing not many cockpits. Not to mention navs and air engineers.
Anyway, I'm sure it's nothing to worry about. Me, I'm off to the pub to see who else I can cheer up.
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Fair enough, good points and yes we all know by now that no fleet is sacred.
Personally (and I've been at Lyneham for 10 years now) I'm almost past caring. Yes it's a rubbish decision, yes the move is going to be a total gang***k but right now I'll settle for a job and a pension. It's a lot more than most will have in the public sector this time next year.
Personally (and I've been at Lyneham for 10 years now) I'm almost past caring. Yes it's a rubbish decision, yes the move is going to be a total gang***k but right now I'll settle for a job and a pension. It's a lot more than most will have in the public sector this time next year.
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Break Even Date??!!
Now the SDSR has been released, I couldn't help note that crewroom scuttlebutt appears to have come true:
Future BZN break even date: 2025 (very optimistic too)
C130 Retires 2022
So in these cost concious times, we're to blow 3 years operating costs in the name of 'savings'!!
Couldn't make it up!!
As far as construction works, I belive they've spent a fraction of the estimated final costs as yet; BZN needed them anyhow.
Ho Hum!
Future BZN break even date: 2025 (very optimistic too)
C130 Retires 2022
So in these cost concious times, we're to blow 3 years operating costs in the name of 'savings'!!
Couldn't make it up!!
As far as construction works, I belive they've spent a fraction of the estimated final costs as yet; BZN needed them anyhow.
Ho Hum!
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Cheeky little article in Private Eye this week.
From the fighter control forum:
From the Private Eye website Private Eye | Official Site
No savings, no expansion, and no extra runway: the “centre of excellence” planned for Brize Norton isn’t all it’s cracked up to be.
In the current issue of Private Eye (no 1281, 4 February to 17 February 2011) there's an interesting article under the title Defence Cuts, Brize cock-up (p 29) that highlights some of the issues coming to light over the planned move of the Hercules fleet from Lyneham to Brize Norton. The gist of the article, supported by examples, is that Brize wil not be able to cope with the Hercules aircraft, let alone the infrastructure necessary to support personnel.
One example of what the article highlights: tactical training, including taking off and landing at night using night vision goggles, is necessary for Hercules aircrew and takes place on a regular basis at Lyneham. This is banned at Brize because of, presumably, complaints from local residents! Where will the Hercules go for this training?
From the fighter control forum:
From the Private Eye website Private Eye | Official Site
No savings, no expansion, and no extra runway: the “centre of excellence” planned for Brize Norton isn’t all it’s cracked up to be.
In the current issue of Private Eye (no 1281, 4 February to 17 February 2011) there's an interesting article under the title Defence Cuts, Brize cock-up (p 29) that highlights some of the issues coming to light over the planned move of the Hercules fleet from Lyneham to Brize Norton. The gist of the article, supported by examples, is that Brize wil not be able to cope with the Hercules aircraft, let alone the infrastructure necessary to support personnel.
One example of what the article highlights: tactical training, including taking off and landing at night using night vision goggles, is necessary for Hercules aircrew and takes place on a regular basis at Lyneham. This is banned at Brize because of, presumably, complaints from local residents! Where will the Hercules go for this training?
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What are the odds on the C130's "moving" to Brize and then continuing to carry out their training at a nice, quiet, low-levels of cultural lighting (relatively), C130 friendly aerodrome just down the road?
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I think all bets are off on that one Grabbers 
... Glad I'm out in 2 months and missing this debacle, I really feel for the people who will have to mop up this mess once they are all shoe-horned into Brize, and expected to operate as normal
... Glad I'm out in 2 months and missing this debacle, I really feel for the people who will have to mop up this mess once they are all shoe-horned into Brize, and expected to operate as normal
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With the brize move, redundancy and all the cut's we are truly in a state. Our leaders call them management challenges. No matter how many times they change the name of the project or present briefings on the lack of progress, I am still convinced that this was never designed to work out in the short term. In 5 years time, with less aircraft, people (and importantly) less tasking / commitments I am sure Brize will operate smoothly. It is the transition to that state and what facilities would remain that is important. People will grow to accept what remains, and it will become the new norm. Valid arguments regarding quarters, slam, parking and maint for the ac are due to the under funding given to this project. The air force (and military as a whole) will change from what we have all known, our masters need to be prepared to deal with a new force - lacking in experience - as I don't think many (of any worth) will wish to stay.
I am honestly unsure whether leaving is the answer, after serving 22 years (20 flying the Herc at Lyn) I will miss the people more than anything, new recruits will join but I can't see them staying for a career. The cuts have pushed me to complete my civilian licence just in case, I have always believed you make your own opportunities / future but I fear many will seek a change within the year or so, even if they do not get 'chosen' for redundancy.
I am honestly unsure whether leaving is the answer, after serving 22 years (20 flying the Herc at Lyn) I will miss the people more than anything, new recruits will join but I can't see them staying for a career. The cuts have pushed me to complete my civilian licence just in case, I have always believed you make your own opportunities / future but I fear many will seek a change within the year or so, even if they do not get 'chosen' for redundancy.
In post 222 Kreuger Flap said:
"...There is an early movers scheme that is run to allow a phased move into these quarters but the Station Commander has told people don't bother to apply as there aren't any to move into".
I would recommend that people do the exact opposite. If you are entitled to a quarter then apply for it! By applying your case is in the system, you have started a paperwork trail regarding your situation and the system will ultimately be required to provide you with accommodation (a hiring, or is it called something like SSFA these days, in somewhere like Oxford?).
By not applying all that happens is that the problem, or the size of the problem, is not highlighted adequately. This just plays into the hands of anyone who might be trying to ignore or play down the issue. Don't make life any easier for them!!
Reference the car parking issue, I thought this had been "solved" by the "..no cars on camp if you live within 3 miles.." approach? Great in the middle of winter, or if you are coming in with any amount of kit for whatever reason...
"...There is an early movers scheme that is run to allow a phased move into these quarters but the Station Commander has told people don't bother to apply as there aren't any to move into".
I would recommend that people do the exact opposite. If you are entitled to a quarter then apply for it! By applying your case is in the system, you have started a paperwork trail regarding your situation and the system will ultimately be required to provide you with accommodation (a hiring, or is it called something like SSFA these days, in somewhere like Oxford?).
By not applying all that happens is that the problem, or the size of the problem, is not highlighted adequately. This just plays into the hands of anyone who might be trying to ignore or play down the issue. Don't make life any easier for them!!
Reference the car parking issue, I thought this had been "solved" by the "..no cars on camp if you live within 3 miles.." approach? Great in the middle of winter, or if you are coming in with any amount of kit for whatever reason...
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No Cars on Camp if you live within 3 miles
This rule / edict will of course include ALL Station Execs won't it? After all, the PM has said on many occasions "We are all in it together".
Or am I just being naive?
S206
Or am I just being naive?
S206
